Lore Master and Casters

[Algol]

Hello, as it is lore master class is very powerful for mundane characters but it has very poor synergy with casters, which I believe is a bit unthematic.

Lore master requirements are:

8 Lore - almost every build invests in lore anyway

16 int - Most builds will have 14 int anyway, so it means they just need to give up 30 HP and 1 fort save by reducing their constitution by 2. Con saves are already the highest save for most so losing 1 doesn't matter really. And they can just use a lesser secret to get back the HP they lost.

SF: Lore - A feat tax for everyone but I'd argue a high lore score is more beneficial to non-casters. And builds with fighter levels tend to have more feats to spare.

Prerequisites aren't very taxing for melee or casters, but I'd say they are very light for a fighter compared to a cleric or sorcerer.

The class benefits are also very tailored towards melees. Bonuses for wands and scrolls for casters do not matter much since casting from their spell book will be better most of the time, except buffs like zoo spells to save spell slots.

There are no lesser tricks to improve their casting or make up for the caster levels, or bonus class feats they lose (assuming they'll need a discipline dip they lose level 26 and 23 bonus feats depending how deep they go), while melees get 1 ab and 1 ac. Which stacks with armor skin or epic prowess so they are pure bonuses, not making up for anything lost.

I think adding a lesser secret that increases their caster level against dispells by 2, and one that increases their caster level by 1 directly. Perhaps another one that has like a spell-clutch effect could be fun, and make the class more viable option for caster.

[AstralUniverse]

Everything you're saying is kind of true and by design. Fully intentional.

For long time back in the day, trying to RP a loremaster when you're not a wizard or some int based bard or monk, just made you look silly and you'd be shadowed heavily by any average wizard in languages and just knowledge in general. Loremaster was designed to correct that by allowing other classes to become successful loremaster. This is why loremaster doesnt have much synergy with caster classes, although one could argue that wizard, ironically, has the spare feats and already 16+ int to pick loremaster anyway. It does cost CL, ultimately, and that's the whole point. It's meant more for fighters, rogues, et cetra. The secrets of ac/ab were made to soften the hit when you sacrifice a class for the loremaster kit on a combatant.

I am not in favor of adding access to more CL.

[Choofed]

The Loremaster dip is still valuable for a lot of casters to obtain ESF spells as secrets. We get a lot of different classes diping loremaster for RP purposes too, and they're still viable in their roles. It gives a lot of classes breaching potential with the Mord scrolls who may not have it in their default kit, and likewise enables a lot of people timestop.

I think we're fine where we are.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

and if you are going for that 'untraditional academic but super wise and knowledgeable vibe' shaman loremasters can still take a disc dip and have good caster level.

[-XXX-]

I agree with the sentiment that LM's been tailor made to allow melee builds trespass into caster's gimmick.

That being said, it's not bad that it exists, but IMO the class benefits for casters should be more even

• LM should be adding FULL CL or(and?) get discipline as class skill
• LM should probably lose -scry

[AstralUniverse]

LM should be adding FULL CL or(and?) get discipline as class skill

plz no, too stronk.

LM should probably lose -scry

plz yes, the less scry in the game the better. make shaman great again.

To elaborate a little,
with disc, it would be the best dip in the game and it would return us to a state where you always go lm on any wiz and then once more only wizards are the only true loremasters in the game in languages and knowledge of stuff in general. It would also easily be the only optimal dip for Rogue. It would be a loremaster winter big time and over all reduce build diversity.

[perseid]

I'm a little confused by the comment about the bonuses to things like scrolls not being huge for certain purecasters. Maybe Warlocks and Sorcerers aren't going to run out of spells until pvp is effectively over but Wizards, arguably the most thematically suited to be loremasters, benefit immensely from everything from the scroll recycling (spamming scrolls is a huge part of Wiz pvp), boosted scroll CL (the SR helm is the meta and this feature boosts your odds of overcoming it by 25% at LM 5), to the Greater Secrets (Any secret giving you an ESF toy is effectively saving you two general feats and an epic feat).

[Paint]

We all know the reason people are upset with loremaster on casters is that you can't take a disc/tumble dip with loremaster and have decent CL v. Dispel.

As it should be. LM is fine on casters right now.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

We all know the reason people are upset with loremaster on casters is that you can't take a disc/tumble dip with loremaster and have decent CL v. Dispel.

As it should be. LM is fine on casters right now.

100%

commit to be a full nerd to never bothered to learn to resist being tripped.

[-XXX-]

The only ppl playing wizards now are those who missclicked from "warlock" on character creation
Sorcerers are all but extinct at this point

LM doesn't do all that much for warlocks, shaman's tailored to take it and clerics are long overdue for a nerf anyways.

[Kuma]

clerics are long overdue for a nerf anyways.

I am tired of Arelith. Of these people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.

[-XXX-]

I am tired of Arelith. Of these people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.

[AstralUniverse]

I dont know how we got here but Cleric doesnt need any nerfs rn. I dont know what you're basing this statement on... it's certainly not their win rate vs common meta builds so idk. really.

Also.... Arcus Ty'denteril.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

clerics are long overdue for a nerf anyways.

I am tired of Arelith. Of these people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.

lmao I almost forgot about this meme

[Tarkus the dog]

cleric doesn't need nerf, but word of faith sure does. im still half blind in one eye from the pvps ive had months ago. someone please look into the code, that blindness cooldown isn't working right

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

The only ppl playing wizards now are those who missclicked from "warlock" on character creation
Sorcerers are all but extinct at this point

LM doesn't do all that much for warlocks, shaman's tailored to take it and clerics are long overdue for a nerf anyways.

caster warlock 25 loremaster 5 does have some nerd warlock niche. But def not a meta build by a long shot.

The amount of QoL improvements we have indirectly given wizards and sorcerors AFTER the great ignore spellcraft spells nerf has been quite substantial.

summons auto gaurding it has never been safer to spam spellbound wands and or cantrips with arcane fluxes at now increased rates while also having the option to rest every 30 minutes if you want to liter other non arcane flux spells in almost every encounter.

Even the super horrible transmutation specailist (dont play this still people unless you like suffering) has a niche of being able to have almost infinite extended mass hastes as they can now arcane flux non offensive spells within their school. which could mean keeps your illusion summons, or undead, or party indefinitely extended haste if you manage resource and keep that cantrip spamming up.

if you umd or lore Aura of vitality along with trrans specialist buff your shades with strength an have an int mod of 16 (use ESF illusion and other bonuses to hit that soft ab cap of 20) your shades will be 23 bab 20 soft cap ab + str mod which can hit 50 or 5. Have 3 shades with 5 apr at 49 (cl 27. 30 would be 51 ab) ab and crippling strike can be quite amusing. Unsure if shadowmage would bump this up (50 ab with disc dip). they would also get flanking bonus.

[Subtext]

The amount of QoL improvements we have indirectly given wizards and sorcerors AFTER the great ignore spellcraft spells nerf has been quite substantial.

summons auto gaurding it has never been safer to spam spellbound wands and or cantrips with arcane fluxes at now increased rates while also having the option to rest every 30 minutes if you want to liter other non arcane flux spells in almost every encounter.

I wouldn't overestimate those buffs. The increased arcane flux chance is somewhat nice for PvE but not overly impactful.
And the summons guarding you is cool but full casters are likely the ones benefiting from it the least since you kinda need to be glued to the summons arse for it to work (and I believe the summon can't be passive) and you'd probably want to spam your cantrips instead while the summon does the heavy lifting.
Meaning you won't move much but aggro wasn't really an issue there before either if you paid attention to your summons.

That thing is however a huge pve boon for any build that wants to do melee damage but has access to a summon of any kind...as it allows you to pretty much completely skimp on your defense in exchange for damage.
Think bards or shamans. Or blackguards. Or rogues with elemental swarm scrolls. Or arcane archers with wizard levels. Or other silly stuff.

[AstralUniverse]

What's stopping you from being glued to your summon's arse tho? You fully command where the summon goes and when it attacks. You can, and should, be glued to your summon's arse, in the same manner that a rogue is glued to their guard's arse in order to consistently get flank bonus. You also have defensive casting mode which means you can sit in melee range from enemies, right next to your summon, and never take any attacks at all. You have plenty of tools to make it work. Use them.

[Shadowy Reality]

What's stopping you from being glued to your summon's arse tho? You fully command where the summon goes and when it attacks. You can, and should, be glued to your summon's arse, in the same manner that a rogue is glued to their guard's arse in order to consistently get flank bonus. You also have defensive casting mode which means you can sit in melee range from enemies, right next to your summon, and never take any attacks at all. You have plenty of tools to make it work. Use them.

Can confirm that this works very well. I duo'd to epics as a WM with a friend playing the old True Flame class, they were constantly by my side using defensive casting and we never had real issues.

[-XXX-]

We're mixing apples an oranges here.
PvE performance isn't really regarded as power metric - neither OOC nor IC.

Summoner builds can solo most PvE content (not even talking about working in a team here)

• even without disc or max CL.
• even with spawns camping area transitions.
  ^ this applied even before auto summon -guard.
  (TBH I view summon auto -guard cookie as a very minor improvement rather than some big game changer - the AI has always prioritized targets that aggroed the mobs, so summoners have been mostly fine for as long as they didn't go whacking things with their staff. The biggest boost I see here is to summoner builds that actually use attacks (cleric, shaman). Wiz/Sorc less so.)

However PvP performance is an entirely different animal and nobody's going to care that Bob the almighty wizard is having breakfast in Zanshibon, lunch at Mt. Baphomet and dines with Beholders, if they're constantly getting sucker-punched by cookie-cutter WMs whenever they get themselves into a squabble over something silly in town.

[AstralUniverse]

My problem with mages in general is that nuke combos arent good. They used to be good. But a lot of things are added to the game, left and right, out of control (this isnt bad, but it does mean things becomes worse/better over time due to new items, new classes, new whatever). In case of mages... I dont know. They're supposed to be good at nuking one person really hard, but now we have things like a potion that heals 40% max hp over 12 seconds. We also have really high saves in this game no matter what we play, pretty much. Mage's kit is becoming kind of obsolete. I rather have consistent damage like warlock blaster, elemental strike, wm crits, smites and now that spellsword's mord got nerfed a bit, also battle-cleric/fs. I dont remember the last time I saw or heard of someone getting nuked by a mage and dies. Not for at least a couple of years.

Mages shouldnt be better than they are in pve, or even in mass party pvp. They are still very good at mass party pvps, they arguably out-shine warlocks in mass party pvp. But their (low) potential in spontaneous 1v1s depends on the enemy playing overly defensive or not gearing saves, which is not a very good position to be in, especially with the upcoming basin rework in mind.

It had nothing to do with loremaster tbh, 'loremaster price' on casters is more due to thematic reasons, not balance, sorry if I wasted your time.

[Paint]

Has the conversation pivoted from loremaster dips on caster classes and into arguing about casters?

As someone who has suffered several bouts of wizard-based trauma, and having played with the new QoL updates, I can confirm that while they're nice, they still don't give wizards any PVP power. That was never the intent of the QoL updates, and they certainly do not make wizards or sorcerers any better at PVP right now. The best you can manage is grinding an AF before knowing there'll be some big PVP soon and using that to cast exactly one spell, and you've been able to do that for awhile.

Loremaster, on the other hand, has always been a sacrifice of power for utility. This is true even on martials, who end up losing AB or damage for fitting LM into their build -- occasionally even AC. The return on it is the wand and scroll bonus paired with access to UMD. But you can get UMD from rogue or bard or even warlock anyway. However, does it matter if it potentially enables you to cast Timestop routinely from a scroll? That might not help a wizard, who already can, but it's very powerful on clerics and fvs, too. There's got to be something to balance that out, and the balancing factor is a loss of power in the form, usually, of losing access to discipline.

Shamans are an anomaly, but I'm fine with that because their spellbook really lacks a lot of killing potential outside of spamming harm, which is easily thwarted.

[perseid]

Has the conversation pivoted from loremaster dips on caster classes and into arguing about casters?

As someone who has suffered several bouts of wizard-based trauma, and having played with the new QoL updates, I can confirm that while they're nice, they still don't give wizards any PVP power. That was never the intent of the QoL updates, and they certainly do not make wizards or sorcerers any better at PVP right now. The best you can manage is grinding an AF before knowing there'll be some big PVP soon and using that to cast exactly one spell, and you've been able to do that for awhile.

Loremaster, on the other hand, has always been a sacrifice of power for utility. This is true even on martials, who end up losing AB or damage for fitting LM into their build -- occasionally even AC. The return on it is the wand and scroll bonus paired with access to UMD. But you can get UMD from rogue or bard or even warlock anyway. However, does it matter if it potentially enables you to cast Timestop routinely from a scroll? That might not help a wizard, who already can, but it's very powerful on clerics and fvs, too. There's got to be something to balance that out, and the balancing factor is a loss of power in the form, usually, of losing access to discipline.

Shamans are an anomaly, but I'm fine with that because their spellbook really lacks a lot of killing potential outside of spamming harm, which is easily thwarted.

I think in a way it's interesting because while I agree that for many builds LM is a power->utility sacrifice I don't know if I'd agree that it is for wizards who already plan around eventually defaulting to scroll spam outside of arena conflicts anyways and this is especially true imo after the nerf Spellswords got to their version of Mords. A Wiz 25/LM 5 with ESF Abj is slinging Mord scrolls with the same dispelling potency as actual hardcasts from my understanding. That's far from inconsequential both in terms of the sheer amount of sustained debuffing it enables and in the utility it provides by opening up the option for a Wiz to consider just filling their 9ths with Maximized Missile Storms for moments their team would be better supported by added damage pressure. This is on top of the added reliability to things like WoF scrolls against both sr helms and sr minions like Palemaster undead as well as the easier ability to hit the Lore breakpoints for things like Mass Heal scrolls. It comes with a vulnerability hit from losing Discipline and an ac hit to EMA builds sure but it's far from just being a a choice of flavor over power in the case of wizards specifically since a lot of their pvp already centered around kiting and scroll use anyway.

[AstralUniverse]

mord base cl 17 + 5 lm = 22
mord cl cap on spellbook is 23.
there's 1 cl difference. this is fine.

[perseid]

mord base cl 17 + 5 lm = 22
mord cl cap on spellbook is 23.
there's 1 cl difference. this is fine.

Don't foci still apply to disposables? For some reason I was thinking they did.

Edit: Actually that still wouldn't fix the 1 cl gap. For some reason I thought the maximum was capped at 25 not 26 w/ foci such that it'd even out. You're right.