Totem Druids - Feedback on Optics

[ClockworkRed]

I started playing a Totem Druid lately. I really enjoy the possibilities of a Druid who is having one specific animal form (in the case of my PC Spider).

I just wanted to give some feedback on a few points I noticed as well as ideas that came to my mind concerning the optics of Totem Druids:

It seems that the Epic Dragon Knight Summon is not scaled up in size. It uses very tiny totem animal model compared to the totem polymorph form, animal companion and the elemental swarm summons. I would think this is something that was maybe just overlooked. In my eyes, Dragon Knight could apply a similar scale factor as the totem polymorph form at the end level (that one is really huge) to reflect its power.

In contrast, as mentioned, the totem form becomes really huge at end levels (depends on the base model, the bat and rat are in general much smaller than the spider, bear, ...). The form itself provides high AC but rather low damage output. It kind of feels odd to me that such a large beast does rather tiny bites. Maybe the totem polymorph form should be reduced a bit in size to reflect that it is hard to hit but does not hit too hard.

Finally, one idea I would like to put out for discussion and consideration. This is subject to personal taste, but how about changing the Epic Plant Form's appearance to the totem animal similar as the summons (same stats just different appearance). A major part of the totem druid experience to me is to be able to hunt in the totem form, and the epic plant shape is much more viable for combat in comparison to the polymorph totem form with its limited damage output.
With the Deep Shambler's Hide/MS bonus, this would additionally allow to shift into a sneaky totem animal (in my eyes very suited for rat, bat, panther, spider hanging on the ceiling etc.).

[Sincra]

I am going to comment mainly on the last point about giving the Plantshape the Totem form as I feel that has some implications worth mentioning.

The plant shape and elemental forms all do not swap to the totem shape because those forms have immunities and corresponding weaknesses in some cases.

As such letting that be hidden beneath a skin poses a meta issue of hiding the natural counterplay to shapes.

There is of course solutions but to illustrate why this is clunky or time consuming:
Consider how many Totems there are
Consider that there are 3 Plant Shapes and 4 Elemental forms
Each Totem would now need 7 identifiers to show the current form you are in and still be easily recognisable.
This may come in the form of say a Fire or Water shroud for the elementals but it is less clear how we would portray the 3 plant shapes.

As such it is likely easier to leave it as is and also less overhead for players to learn to recognise what something is.

[AddledPunster]

When I played my Totem Druid, I liked to overcome the lack of a totem-specific form for the Elemental and Plant Shapes by describing them with with certain animalistic qualities. For example, I had a rat druid who's Fire Elemental form had a rat head, and who's plant-shape form was described as a massive, humanoid rat nest, with little rats scurrying among the roots/fungi.

I liked to pretend the sneak attack damage from the Deep Shambler was being caused by the rats jumping out for opportunistic bites.

[chris a gogo]

Ive had a spider totem for around 10 years now.
On Dragon Knight not scaling, it did and was the biggest spider you could have so it's lack of size is probably a bug and you should report it.

The lack of damage is due to it not having creature weapons and you being unarmed, this was intended as (many many years ago)there were alot of druid/monk dragon shifters out there and the massive boosts to AC coupled with attack progression from monk meant it was pretty broken.
However now that druid and monk have no synergy they probably should get creature weapons to make up for the lack of damage.

I like the fact that elemental and plant are not reskinned and get the balance reasons but the major reason for me is they are not animals and not part of the wildshape ability.

[AstralUniverse]

Not sure what I think about totem druid that Sincra didnt already cover.

But +4 int, is +4 int.

[Cthuletta]

I personally like having elemental and plant shape on my totem druid! Has some interesting RP opportunities. Put out fires more than once in water elemental form!

The damage IS pretty low on the totem form though- I think Totem Druids when they are focused more on that form rather than spellcasting are meant to be tanky, not so much DPS, otherwise it may be a balance issue? Not entirely sure, but I wouldn't snub being able to actually kill something with a mighty bite instead of my summons doing all the work- especially given in some scenerios where one WoF renders them useless anyway.

[Svrtr]

Totem is a relic from an older time that hasn't aged well. I agree too that totem SHOULD NOT over take the epic forms as is

With that said, there is certainly a lacking niche for druids

1) Beast brawler that emphasizes the animal shape

2) caster druid

The latter ironically, despite seeming conceptually similar, would be harder to balance and implement. Casting inside druid form with its ac and bonus stats for concentration, along with DI and DR and Regen, would be problematic if it was just straight forward, and thus would require more thought and discussion

The former however, is a lacking niche, something best done through an epic feat. I don't make promises as I speak as an individual and not on behalf of the team, but a beast brawler form (one that respects totem shape) is something I have been wanting to do and work on. Once elemental avatar is done and live I'll likely consider focusing on it if given leave, and use the ideas and tools learned from it

Finally, on totem druid, I'm of the belief that it should become mostly visual. Remove or lessen the stat bonuses but also the stat gains, or if left as is the bonus physical stats should be made hard bonuses (if also rebalanced). Unfortunately though even if one has brawler and pugilist, if vigilante is changed to not need DF the dip for it would create potentially unhealthy balance problems

Again, I speak only with my own ideas that do not represent the ideas of the team

[ClockworkRed]

The idea of having an epic beast shape feat with totem appearance at some time in the future when it fits into your schedule and the team's vision sounds awesome to me!

I see whether I can find another totem druid with dragon knight to cross-check whether they have do not see a size scaling, before I write a bug report. And thanks all for the information, explains a lot.