Mord's Sword, Blood Homunculus; The Two Worst Summons.

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Paint
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Mord's Sword, Blood Homunculus; The Two Worst Summons.

Post by Paint » Wed Jan 10, 2024 8:46 pm

I want to be more constructive in my feedback about these two summons in specific, but I just. I cannot. It's been a pretty long time since Mordenkainen's Sword was changed. Thanks to it being tacked onto Elementalist as a 5th level spell, it no longer serves its function as a 7th level spell for wizards, as it is so inferior to any other option out there.

For all of its immunities, it hits like a wet paper bag and sequencers hardly help it. It's what you use if you're given literally no other options as an elementalist, and it's entirely forgettable as a wizard or a sorcerer. This is pretty disappointing, as it could clearly fill a pretty interesting niche, as well as help elementalists out by giving them an alternative summoning option to elementals before they get the bigger, more powerful ones.

Additionally, it's one of the only summons that has a turns-per-level duration. This means that you need to cast it extended as an 8th level spell if you want it to reliably survive through one of the longer dungeons on Arelith, since the levels you're likely to use it at are from 14-22.

Mord's Sword used to have a cute gimmick where you could enchant its weapon, but this was taken away from it, and this has contributed pretty heavily to its decline, since after the summon update went through, this functionality was not preserved, meaning its damage is subpar.

I know that Mordenkainen's Sword was rebalanced for Elementalist, but I think this was a mistake. It would make a lot more sense to balance it as a 7th level spell, and more importantly, tune its stats accordingly. I'm aware the team probably doesn't want to make any tweaks to summons they'll have to revert later, considering there might be a rather large shift in how summons work eventually, but I strongly suggest reconsidering for this specific instance. It's a dead spell in the sorcerer/wizard spell list, not worth considering over other options in almost every single instance.

Okay so now the blood homunculus. Same problem as Mord's Sword in a different package. The T3 homunculus should be pretty powerful, considering how much setup is required to actually -achieve- it, which has been made harder for Hemomancer, unless -that- got fixed, but what you end up with is a subpar 9th level summon that's worse than elementals because of its bad AC and bad AB. Despite its incredibly high healthpool, using this thing in a dungeon means constantly micromanaging it to keep it from being shredded by a group of five or so enemies. Even with improved invisibility from a sequencer, it gets shredded relatively quickly, due to its low AC. Although it hits hard, if it gets surrounded by more than a couple of enemies with blindfight -- which becomes increasingly common around the levels you'd -have- a T3 homunculus -- it crumbles to dust. This is on top of its timer, which can be almost an hour long, sure, but for people who -can't- get the T3 homunculus, it's under half an hour, which means if you want to use the homunculus in a dungeon, you better hope you prepared enough spells to buff another one.

And sure, it's a 9th level spell, so maybe it shouldn't be as powerful as PC or Mummy Dust, but in order to achieve T3, you almost -need- to be level 30 and hit a very specific threshold on sorcerer or wizard with your stats, then, perform some absolutely delusional temporary HP gymnastics, and on hemomancer, you have to make sure that your HP exceeds a certain cap, or it's a no go. Additionally, Hemomancer doesn't want the transmutation foci, so it probably won't benefit as much from T3 homunculus anyways. So for both types of caster that can use it, neither can get the most out of it without some -considerable- sacrifice. Sacrifice that would be wasted on a subpar summon. I want to like the homunculus, because it -looks- cool, but it simply does not fill a niche for any caster that has access to it. I say that as an evo spec who is currently using summoned shadows, because they're, ironically, much tankier and have more sustain than the blood homunculus due to their high concealment and IKD spam. They do require more babysitting due to their low HP pool, but they're infinitely more replaceable, as well.

Really, neither of those summons need to change. It doesn't change anything about how I'm going to play right now, but they're both interesting visually, and could be good options for wizards who want to use them, and help bridge that gap for specialists who want to not be necromancers, and perhaps can't rely on illusion foci because it doesn't fit their build. As it stands, they're just two worthless spells in the wizard, sorcerer spell list, and they could really use some tweaking to make them options that are attractive enough to want to run in even PVE.

Edit:
If Mord's sword intent is never to be rebalanced to use for wizard/sorcs, another option is to just take it off the wizard/sorc spell list and be done with it. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, all complaints about how bad it is are valid.

Edit 2:
I forgot about the lesser planar binding spells and yeah, those are pretty awful, too, but so forgettable, because anyone who can summon those can also just use summon monster, so my experience with them is pretty limited. I apologize.

Edit 3:
I just wanted to make a third edit. And now you have read it. With your eyes. Probably.


Sandrow
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Re: Mord's Sword, Blood Homunculus; The Two Worst Summons.

Post by Sandrow » Thu Jan 11, 2024 5:16 am

Before we discuess summons, have you noticed that:

  1. Summons will automatically guard you, which is of great convenience for invokers.
  2. Ten blood stacks counts for 100 hit points and maximumed vampiric touch adds 60 temp hit points. All you need is to get 320 hit points at 30 level. Even if you starts with 8 con, you can till summon a tire 3 Blood Homunculus after buffing yourself to 20 con.

I believe invokers are supposed to use summons as consumables, all their value is to distract monsters' attention while you nuke them all dead. Invokers are not summoners.


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Paint
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Re: Mord's Sword, Blood Homunculus; The Two Worst Summons.

Post by Paint » Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:24 am

Sandrow wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2024 5:16 am

Before we discuess summons, have you noticed that:

  1. Summons will automatically guard you, which is of great convenience for invokers.
  2. Ten blood stacks counts for 100 hit points and maximumed vampiric touch adds 60 temp hit points. All you need is to get 320 hit points at 30 level. Even if you starts with 8 con, you can till summon a tire 3 Blood Homunculus after buffing yourself to 20 con.

I believe invokers are supposed to use summons as consumables, all their value is to distract monsters' attention while you nuke them all dead. Invokers are not summoners.

Please read my criticisms before you jump to conclusions here, especially because I explained the flaw there with invoker. Though I'll admit this is more from a wizard/sorcerer perspective, that is definitely is valid, seeing as it's on the wizard/sorcerer spell list, and it could just as easily not be.


Sandrow
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Re: Mord's Sword, Blood Homunculus; The Two Worst Summons.

Post by Sandrow » Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:43 am

Paint wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:24 am

Please read my criticisms before you jump to conclusions here, especially because I explained the flaw there with invoker. Though I'll admit this is more from a wizard/sorcerer perspective, that is definitely is valid, seeing as it's on the wizard/sorcerer spell list, and it could just as easily not be.

While stand for wizard/sorcerer, you are extirely correct. Not only Mord's Sword but also crafted golems are helpless in most adventure cases. And the only possible way for a pure wizard to summon tire 3 Blood Homunculus might be stack temp hp together with tenser and cast through a scroll. And even if you make it, Blood Homunculus is similar to undead Abomination, both of them melt quickly in epic dungeons, becasue they take too many damage and you can't afford healing the lost 300 hps each fight.
Worse shape changing than shifter, worse summons than conjuction. But everyone welcome mass haste and zoos. That's transmutation school.


MRFTW
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Re: Mord's Sword, Blood Homunculus; The Two Worst Summons.

Post by MRFTW » Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:46 pm

I'm playing a warlock 25 / LM 5 whose only summon option is Greater Planar Binding, with no relevant focuses but with whatever epic caster bonuses it'd grant.

I find it (usually using slaad or ant streams) to be pretty mediocre in harder content but firm enough to feel like it's worth using one of my 2 level 8 slots for it. It's not a high level summon and I think it's quite nicely tuned for where it is and how little investment I have other than the opportunity cost of the spell and a sequencer.

Have you used it before, Paint, and do you think that'd be a reasonable level for the Mord's Sword summon to be at? What if it was a 5th level wiz/sorc spell, instead? How does it compare to the summon creature bear/tiger?

Thoroughly enjoy your writing style and critiques, keep it up!


Naghast
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Re: Mord's Sword, Blood Homunculus; The Two Worst Summons.

Post by Naghast » Fri Jan 12, 2024 8:44 am

Heya, just chipping in my few cents here

I've been playing with both summon creature 9, and with blood homunculus, and, well, needless to say...

Homunculus, with investment of:
16 base con
Toughness feat
Empower spell feat (for empowered zoos, and for empowered false life stacked with aid's 1d8 temp hp for just enough hp for a T3)
Esf trans feat
50% of my current health (so getting reduced to like, 55/60% of my max hp)
(Read: 4 pre-epic feats, 1 epic feat, 16 base con, hp tax)

Was significantly squishier, with much worse sustain, and not even that much stronger in terms of damage (it had more damage, but i believe slightly less ab and most importantly, no blindfight), than summon creature 9 with:
Gsf conj
Esf trans
Empower spell (for empowered zoos)
(Read: 5 pre-epic feats, 1 epic feat)

At the time of testing though i also listed maximize as a requirement for hitting T3 homunculus with maximized vampiric touch. That turned out to be unnecessary, but false life + aid has RNG attached to it. If unlucky, i can fail to hit the temp hp threshold with my empowered cast + scabbard of blessings.

And that stat disparity was on top of homunculus having oppressively short duration for PVE purposes.

Furthermore, i only got T3 homunculus at exactly lvl 30. Summon creature 9 can reach about that power at like, level 21.

And no offense but i think that temp hp gymnastics + stat requirement + rng outweight 1 bonus feat spent.

Unless you want to ignore RNG, then the feat tax is actually equal.

(EDIT)
I believe i once sent Svrtr an excel spreadsheet detailing the stat difference between each of them. So he should possibly still have it. If there's a need for detailed stat breakdown. Otherwise i can try to dig it up if someone asks me for specifics.


Nazmina
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Re: Mord's Sword, Blood Homunculus; The Two Worst Summons.

Post by Nazmina » Sun Jan 21, 2024 7:06 pm

I recently tested Homunculus on pgcc and noticed the trans spell focuses dont seem to buff the Homunculus, same stats with and without, if anyone else wants to test.


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