Slave Background Should Be Reviewed Again

[perseid]

I realize there's already a variety of policies and nerfs that have been implemented around the slave background from the removal of certain foig mechanics to clarification around the expectations of slave rp. But despite this I think the starting background should really be reviewed again because as it stands it's still arguably one of, if not the, best starts on the server. To illustrate, the current extreme example I see becoming more common is that as far as I can tell Slave background characters are still able to take pirate ink. This means that they retain a number of the perks inherent to the starting background (but not the post-creation clamping system) while also getting to enjoy the usual benefits of pirate ink thus yielding a character with more overall benefits than a traditional pirate would get to enjoy. And yes, we know, there's some people out there of the "remove slaves entirely" mindset but this thread isn't about that. This is about the background as it exists currently STILL being incredibly good despite efforts to walk back the mechanical perks of taking it.

[The GrumpyCat]

Is your concern these pcs taking pirate ink whilst slaves? Or taking it as and 'if' they get free?

My personal solution would be is that whilst collared, a pc cannot take the ink. This - tbh, just makes sense to me. Especially given the abolutionist sentiment in Sencliff.

[perseid]

Is your concern these pcs taking pirate ink whilst slaves? Or taking it as and 'if' they get free?

My personal solution would be is that whilst collared, a pc cannot take the ink. This - tbh, just makes sense to me. Especially given the abolutionist sentiment in Sencliff.

I've seen differing reports on the matter but my understanding is that while slave backgrounds, specifically the starter background not post-creation slaves, don't retain full ud portal access they do still retain destination access to some of these portals. This makes a Slave start which then goes free to join Sencliff much better than a regular pirate start or a post-creation non-slave pirate in terms of general region access.

[Ad Astra]

AFAIK, the mere ability to click and use the portals at any given point in your characters lifetime simply means that portal is now permanently on your list. I played someone who was enslaved, not background a slave, and I had the ability to go 'to' the Hub portal after I was free. It was sort of like a terrifying potential misclick and hanging reminder for roleplay that he was a slave.

[The GrumpyCat]

Is your concern these pcs taking pirate ink whilst slaves? Or taking it as and 'if' they get free?

My personal solution would be is that whilst collared, a pc cannot take the ink. This - tbh, just makes sense to me. Especially given the abolutionist sentiment in Sencliff.

I've seen differing reports on the matter but my understanding is that while slave backgrounds, specifically the starter background not post-creation slaves, don't retain full ud portal access they do still retain destination access to some of these portals. This makes a Slave start which then goes free to join Sencliff much better than a regular pirate start or a post-creation non-slave pirate in terms of general region access.

Mm I /think/ this is a bug. I believe that it also means (if you're a pc who started as a slave and got free) that you also can't use Laurik's boats still. I know it has happened to an old character with the slave background of mine.

My... personal suggestion for this would be the following...

Step 1) Make Scars set people free for money, - same amount as the clamper. Say that she'll give short cuts for people who give big enough bribes for the escapee group, Idk, i'm sure something could be done. Of course she'll also do it via the quest method.

BUT.

If you get free Via bribing the clamper, your slave background is replaced with Outcast.

If you get free via Scars (either payment or doing the quest ) You get a new tag 'Slave Scarrs' - a ring of scarring around the neck, for example, that marks you as an Escaped Slave! This is either generally viewable, or at least viewable to citizens of Andunor. You also should have only the portals that any surfacer could attune to. (which may mean just loosing hub portal? Not sure). But I think that the very fact you're marked as an 'Escaped Slave' in andunor, would make things more... interesting for ex slaves, even if they went on to join Sencliff.

[perseid]

Is your concern these pcs taking pirate ink whilst slaves? Or taking it as and 'if' they get free?

My personal solution would be is that whilst collared, a pc cannot take the ink. This - tbh, just makes sense to me. Especially given the abolutionist sentiment in Sencliff.

I've seen differing reports on the matter but my understanding is that while slave backgrounds, specifically the starter background not post-creation slaves, don't retain full ud portal access they do still retain destination access to some of these portals. This makes a Slave start which then goes free to join Sencliff much better than a regular pirate start or a post-creation non-slave pirate in terms of general region access.

Mm I /think/ this is a bug. I believe that it also means (if you're a pc who started as a slave and got free) that you also can't use Laurik's boats still. I know it has happened to an old character with the slave background of mine.

My... personal suggestion for this would be the following...

Step 1) Make Scars set people free for money, - same amount as the clamper. Say that she'll give short cuts for people who give big enough bribes for the escapee group, Idk, i'm sure something could be done. Of course she'll also do it via the quest method.

BUT.

If you get free Via bribing the clamper, your slave background is replaced with Outcast.

If you get free via Scars (either payment or doing the quest ) You get a new tag 'Slave Scarrs' - a ring of scarring around the neck, for example, that marks you as an Escaped Slave! This is either generally viewable, or at least viewable to citizens of Andunor. You also should have only the portals that any surfacer could attune to. (which may mean just loosing hub portal? Not sure). But I think that the very fact you're marked as an 'Escaped Slave' in andunor, would make things more... interesting for ex slaves, even if they went on to join Sencliff.

I've heard the Laurick issue too and I do think in a perfect world it would be something noteworthy. That said, given the general abundance of portals I think it's more of an inconvenience while a character is getting started than something that will be an issue longterm. I do however like both of these suggestions. I've already noticed a general social trend of "Did they pay the fee/fine to the city? Then we should see how they prove themselves." as far as UD relations with slaves who go free and in a way I think it's very logical because it's a choice between the cheaper route that sees you shunned from the UD (arguably akin to a conclusion/redemption arc in that this reverses your ties to Andunor to emphasize an embrace of personal freedom topside) vs. the more expensive route which retains some degree (obviously rp matters) of social acceptability below and portal access in exchange for losing the ability to wander topside with clean-ish hands .

[Diegovog]

The only change that should happen is not allowing freed-slaves to use the UDers-restricted portals. I know in the past characters became slaves just to pay it off and have all portals.

I personally dislike scars quest a lot. Very confusing, convoluted and if people know what to do and have hoarded all the materials, they can finish the quest pretty quickly.

[Amateur Hour]

Disclaimer: I have never had a slave character escape, so I don't know what the quest is like, but I've had people talk about it.

I would second the idea that your method out of slavery determines your new existence. Paying the 2 million fee (or however that fee changes in the future) would make you an Outcast because you're buying into the Andunorian system; you'd keep your portal access and gain the ability to own UD property. Doing the quest (or some other equivalent that's narratively undermining the Andunorian slavemaster) would mark you as an outcast-to-the-Underdark; you'd lose your UD portal accesses, but gain the ability to do surface writs, own surface properties, and generally exist in the realm above. From what I understand, the quest route to freedom currently can be done super quickly if you know what you're doing and have external support; maybe it needs to be done on more of a writ-timer system, so you have to do, say, seven tasks in roughly seven days (meaning you'd probably lose any quarters held pre-enslavement due to the length of time - not something you'd do lightly).

It'd certainly slow down some of the "slave tourism" if you can't effectively buy UD portal access for 2 million gold or 48 hours of errand-running.

[D4wN]

My... personal suggestion for this would be the following...

Step 1) Make Scars set people free for money, - same amount as the clamper. Say that she'll give short cuts for people who give big enough bribes for the escapee group, Idk, i'm sure something could be done. Of course she'll also do it via the quest method.

BUT.

If you get free Via bribing the clamper, your slave background is replaced with Outcast.

If you get free via Scars (either payment or doing the quest ) You get a new tag 'Slave Scarrs' - a ring of scarring around the neck, for example, that marks you as an Escaped Slave! This is either generally viewable, or at least viewable to citizens of Andunor. You also should have only the portals that any surfacer could attune to. (which may mean just loosing hub portal? Not sure). But I think that the very fact you're marked as an 'Escaped Slave' in andunor, would make things more... interesting for ex slaves, even if they went on to join Sencliff.

This is amongst the many ideas we discussed and I still 100% support this. Paying the Chainbreakers or doing the quests should give you a tag and make you an enemy of Andunor the same way as an outcast makes you an enemy to the Surface. Paying the Slave Master for your freedom should give you an Outcast tag.

[Naghast]

RIP to any monster race slave who decides to break the clamp

[Waldo52]

My last character started in Skal, took ink then became a slave.

There are benefits to this, but it didn't feel particularly game breaking. I was able to take surface writs, Underdark writs and pirate jobs. But I still had to do the work... (I'm looking at you Radiant Heart, with your redundant paladin writs that let you cash in x2 for doing the same job under two different pieces of paper).

Sencliff does have an anti-slavery culture which made life a little more difficult. There was a lot of abuse (lol). The rules also forbade me from owning property, and the shop availability is usually one of my favorite things about playing in Sencliff.

I don't know if the slave/ink combination should be considered overpowered or an unfair advantage, I'll leave that for others to decide. But it didn't feel that way to me. And the player base did a good job disrespecting my character as a slave without any formal rules or DM intervention. He had a couple friends but a lot of people looked at him like a sub-human.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Another thing that people take for the benefits because of how easy it is to skirt the downside. Personally, I don't see any real upside to playing a slave and plenty of pitfalls, so if it went away completely, I wouldn't be sad. But since there probably are people that enjoy that sort of roleplay, I will give the best suggestion ever for premade slaves.

When your character becomes free, you have 24 hours to retire the character.

The 24-hour period is just so you have time to wrap up your story with those that helped you along the way. This allows people to play slaves, stops people from taking it just for the benefits, and if someone was in it for the "former slave" background it's easy enough to write that up in one's backstory.

[Amateur Hour]

I don't see how the server benefits from only created-slaves having an expiration date on them? If the problem is that being a former slave is "too good" for them to be permitted to continue to exist, then someone who was enslaved should suffer the same consequence.

[Algol]

A minimum slavery sentence (3 months maybe?) Would be a much more elegant solution rather than force deleting peoples characters.

[The GrumpyCat]

A minimum slavery sentence (3 months maybe?) Would be a much more elegant solution rather than force deleting peoples characters.

For what little it's worth, I'd much prefer this to force deletion after freedom. MUCH prefer it. At worst... at VERY WORST I suppose, maybe, perhaps, I can see an argument for a MoD on collar release. But like, honestly I don't even like that. The above makes more sense, I guess.

Personally I'd just do the initial idea - having ex slaves (with the exception of monster races maybe?) marked as such if released via scarrs, and others becoming outcasts if released via the Clamper.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't see how the server benefits from only created-slaves having an expiration date on them? If the problem is that being a former slave is "too good" for them to be permitted to continue to exist, then someone who was enslaved should suffer the same consequence.

My logic behind the distinction was pretty simple actually.

A person who creates a slave either A) wants to play a slave or B) wants the benefits that post slavery grants. One, based on this thread, is fine. The other is only in it for the advantage because they know they can get themselves free after playing here for over a decade or whatever.

A person who lets someone take them captive and enslave them when their pre-game image of their character had nothing involving slavery is the kind of player who deserves a high rpr in most circumstances. I know personally I would never do it; I play this game to relax and chill not be someone's pet. As I understand it (and i could be wrong) they also don't get instant access to the language and underdark portals this way.

So yeah, I felt a distinction was necessary.

-------Arbirtrary divider to let the quoted know this is no longer directed at them--------

I also knew that some of the reactions I got were coming.

I personally don't see a difference between say setting rules on monstrous races living on the surface like they were Flanders next door (hideli Ho Neighbor) and setting limitations on longevity on a slew of things, ranging from the topic at hand to special races and the likes, because they are all about what's best for the server, not the individual. But I also know that there are plenty of decision makers that are extremely averse to having hard conversations like letting a player know its time.

As someone who has had those conversations as a decision maker on another server what seems like a lifetime ago now, I can say with absolute certainty that if you approach it right it almost never goes bad, but similar to convincing someone scared of heights to get on a roller coaster logic never really works. No matter how many times you say 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 nothing will go wrong, they are always overwhelmingly concerned about that one in a mil.

[D4wN]

RIP to any monster race slave who decides to break the clamp

I mean.. Why would you actively fight against the slave trade as a monster? Just earn your place and pay off the slave master. Makes no sense as a monster (unless maybe if you're good aligned) to go through the chainbreakers.

I also don't think that it makes any sense to have to retire a slave broken free. Half the fun is what comes after and trying to rebuild your life and dealing with the traumas or using it to fuel a crusade against slavery. Former slaves create RP and story. There's still plenty of story to be told after they break free. It should be left up to the player if they want to retire their character after their slave arc or keep playing it.

[Amateur Hour]

A minimum slavery sentence (3 months maybe?) Would be a much more elegant solution rather than force deleting peoples characters.

For what little it's worth, I'd much prefer this to force deletion after freedom. MUCH prefer it. At worst... at VERY WORST I suppose, maybe, perhaps, I can see an argument for a MoD on collar release. But like, honestly I don't even like that. The above makes more sense, I guess.

Personally I'd just do the initial idea - having ex slaves (with the exception of monster races maybe?) marked as such if released via scarrs, and others becoming outcasts if released via the Clamper.

I feel like the most elegant way of doing this is spreading out the components of the freedom quest to cover the minimum time. There's in-character rationale of "if you act too quickly, you'll draw too much suspicion" and avoids having to roleplay around why someone couldn't just start trying to get free right away. The Slavemaster can just be a sadist jerk who wants to watch you suffer for the same period of time (roughly).

From my perspective, a month would be enough if there were a script that triggered so an enslaved character trying to refresh a quarter they can't legally own wouldn't actually refresh the timer (rather than autoreleasing it, so they, or their friends, at least had a chance to recover their stuff). Quarter loss is a hefty penalty but an appropriate one, I think.

[D4wN]

A minimum slavery sentence (3 months maybe?) Would be a much more elegant solution rather than force deleting peoples characters.

For what little it's worth, I'd much prefer this to force deletion after freedom. MUCH prefer it. At worst... at VERY WORST I suppose, maybe, perhaps, I can see an argument for a MoD on collar release. But like, honestly I don't even like that. The above makes more sense, I guess.

Personally I'd just do the initial idea - having ex slaves (with the exception of monster races maybe?) marked as such if released via scarrs, and others becoming outcasts if released via the Clamper.

I feel like the most elegant way of doing this is spreading out the components of the freedom quest to cover the minimum time. There's in-character rationale of "if you act too quickly, you'll draw too much suspicion" and avoids having to roleplay around why someone couldn't just start trying to get free right away. The Slavemaster can just be a sadist jerk who wants to watch you suffer for the same period of time (roughly).

From my perspective, a month would be enough if there were a script that triggered so an enslaved character trying to refresh a quarter they can't legally own wouldn't actually refresh the timer (rather than autoreleasing it, so they, or their friends, at least had a chance to recover their stuff). Quarter loss is a hefty penalty but an appropriate one, I think.

I've made a lot of suggestions around this in the past. Including putting a decent timer on every task for the chainbreakers you do so you can't break free in literally a RL day.

The other thing is that ICly I very much like to respect that people want to experience the slave arc and I would never rush them. But I have seen it many times that when someone latches onto a slave who doesn't want to be immediately free (often due to good IC reasons) they are treated immediately as loyalists and considered a lost cause people don't want to "waste their time on". This is incredibly sad to see and really poor RP in my opinion. Chainbreaking is or should be treated as something that is dangerous to do and not something to be rushed. You are actively fighting against the slave trade and slavers. Andunor greatly values the slave trade and so anyone discovering you're breaking free should not tolerate that.

[chris a gogo]

To me being a slave should have some major drawbacks I'm talking level caps like 15 and if higher when enslaved it gets frozen, also like 80% of all gold is transferred to the city.
Being a slave should be horrible and becoming free should be a real goal and provide a reward that staying a slave doesn't have.
So slaves would be mechanically weaker than ex slaves or "free" people due to lack of gold and levels.

I think all the complaints about how bad slavery is now would vanish if being a slave was mechanically bad, you can be sure anyone playing a slave would be there to role play a piece of property rather than the "other" reasons they currently do.

But I am biased as I don't like slavery role play and I do tend to give such characters about as much attention as the benches littered around the hub....maybe a bit less I use the benches from time to time.

Peace out.

[D4wN]

To me being a slave should have some major drawbacks I'm talking level caps like 15 and if higher when enslaved it gets frozen, also like 80% of all gold is transferred to the city.
Being a slave should be horrible and becoming free should be a real goal and provide a reward that staying a slave doesn't have.
So slaves would be mechanically weaker than ex slaves or "free" people due to lack of gold and levels.

I think all the complaints about how bad slavery is now would vanish if being a slave was mechanically bad, you can be sure anyone playing a slave would be there to role play a piece of property rather than the "other" reasons they currently do.

But I am biased as I don't like slavery role play and I do tend to give such characters about as much attention as the benches littered around the hub....maybe a bit less I use the benches from time to time.

Peace out.

Nah, I largely agree with you. Playing a slave should be for RP. And it shouldn't be because it gives you extra portals or be able to RP on both sides without consequences. Or play a non-UD race in the UD etc. It should be awful to be a slave. A lot of slaves live lives of luxuries often even better than their owners. I still believe slave RP can really add a lot for any participant in the story. I just don't really like seeing it in its current form.

[Peacelily]

Nah, I largely agree with you. Playing a slave should be for RP. And it shouldn't be because it gives you extra portals or be able to RP on both sides without consequences. Or play a non-UD race in the UD etc. It should be awful to be a slave. A lot of slaves live lives of luxuries often even better than their owners. I still believe slave RP can really add a lot for any participant in the story. I just don't really like seeing it in its current form.

For a lot of the time, slaves are used as ways for owners to show off their wealth; 'Look at how I can adorn even those below me', which depending on period - isn't far from accurate. I personally wouldn't be opposed to

• unclaimed slaves having a far worse time of it, with restrictions on where they can go/what they can do/what they can own, including building debuffs to Constitution the longer you are unclaimed. After all; if you don't have an owner, presumably you're being kept busy by the Slavemaster, not allowed to run rampant around. For groups such as wizards, clerics, even spellbooks, holy symbols may be subject to confiscation - leading to slowly growing spell failure chances the longer you're unclaimed, or relating to your level over 5.
• a slave owner being able to 'tag' the collar so it only teleports to set areas (no surface leys, leys only to Shadovar and Dis as well as the UD, etc, as the owner allows)

The most important thing, though, is that owners should be able to 'reclaim' items from their slaves; giving them a lot more reason to either consider chainbreaking or prepare for freedom, as they try to stash (remember, no citizen space!) enough goods or convince others to hold gear for them.

However, ultimately, I'd much rather encourage slave players to first seek out owners, because they give a measure of safety from the backbreaking work of the pits, and secondly to give slave owners more engagement with that slave rather than just letting them run free. That should also follow with protections; slaves are property of Andunor, and Andunor typically has a poor reaction to people stealing from it.

Last, it's sort of ridiculous slaves can't work the spore farms or the silver mine. They should have access to do the backbreaking work of farming and mining for Andunor, instead of getting the free citizens to do it.

[Cthuletta]

To me being a slave should have some major drawbacks I'm talking level caps like 15 and if higher when enslaved it gets frozen, also like 80% of all gold is transferred to the city.
Being a slave should be horrible and becoming free should be a real goal and provide a reward that staying a slave doesn't have.
So slaves would be mechanically weaker than ex slaves or "free" people due to lack of gold and levels.

I think all the complaints about how bad slavery is now would vanish if being a slave was mechanically bad, you can be sure anyone playing a slave would be there to role play a piece of property rather than the "other" reasons they currently do.

But I am biased as I don't like slavery role play and I do tend to give such characters about as much attention as the benches littered around the hub....maybe a bit less I use the benches from time to time.

Peace out.

Nah, I largely agree with you. Playing a slave should be for RP. And it shouldn't be because it gives you extra portals or be able to RP on both sides without consequences. Or play a non-UD race in the UD etc. It should be awful to be a slave. A lot of slaves live lives of luxuries often even better than their owners. I still believe slave RP can really add a lot for any participant in the story. I just don't really like seeing it in its current form.

Seconded on both accounts. Slavery having a massive mechanical limit on those with collars is something I'd personally like to see for many reasons.

[D4wN]

Largely the comments here are irrelevant anyway. I’ve been trying for 2 RL years to work on getting an overhaul. They’ve made it pretty clear it’s not a priority and I doubt it will be. Especially considering how many people are opposed to the system in general.

[Paint]

I've kept quiet on this, but I've been keeping up with the conversation at least. I think there's a tendency to want to punish everyone who plays a slave for the sake of controlling people who take the role less seriously, and while, considering one of the other hot topics right now involves how poorly played and prevalent some race awards are right now(Though, there's a lot more nuance to it than that, I guess.) I'm not so sure this is really the best way to address the issue. In a perfect world, moderation would be more readily available to tell people to knock it off.

But in the defense of slavery -- the most horrifying phrase I have ever typed -- I've known freed slaves who simply couldn't be the characters they are if slavery was just a part of their background rather than something they experienced on Arelith, because the people they know on the island, the enemies they've made through their stint in slavery in Andunor just wouldn't be possible. These characters are often pretty big movers, too, and help generate a lot of RP. I think trying to restrict this kind of RP too much'd be a pretty big mistake.

That being said, I don't really -like- the slavery system anyways? I just don't really trust players to self-moderate about it if slavery was 'allowed,' but not enforced mechanically. So. Shrug.