Lack of creative prisoner RP options for Surface

[Roofshadow]

As someone who mains an Underdarker right now, I'd say that if I was taken prisoner-- I'd just want the 'punishment' to include RP.

Toss me in a cell and let me RP with guards, or if I need to go fetch a monster head or till a field, send someone with me to "make sure it gets done", etc. I think I'd almost PREFER that over just getting let go, but I also have a particular love of getting to RP with "enemies" in a situation that isn't just 5 minutes of a tense stand off and go. It's often some of my favorite RP, especially if I get to make some frenemies in the process.

I also understand it can be hard to justify "let's put [monster race] in jail", so it might not even be viable, but, hey, if it is-- that's what I like. RP! I'll gladly serve out a full sentence if it gets me RP with folks I usually wouldn't have a chance to RP with.

[D4wN]

As someone who mains an Underdarker right now, I'd say that if I was taken prisoner-- I'd just want the 'punishment' to include RP.

Toss me in a cell and let me RP with guards, or if I need to go fetch a monster head or till a field, send someone with me to "make sure it gets done", etc. I think I'd almost PREFER that over just getting let go, but I also have a particular love of getting to RP with "enemies" in a situation that isn't just 5 minutes of a tense stand off and go. It's often some of my favorite RP, especially if I get to make some frenemies in the process.

I also understand it can be hard to justify "let's put [monster race] in jail", so it might not even be viable, but, hey, if it is-- that's what I like. RP! I'll gladly serve out a full sentence if it gets me RP with folks I usually wouldn't have a chance to RP with.

I love this. Thanks for your feedback. It's encouraging to know there are people open to just "rot" in jail (with RP!!) or be given tasks to feed the hungry or what have you. These are good ideas and while maybe not always feasible depending on who (or what) was captured, it can definitely be used for other things.

[For My Next Trick]

I've on a few occasions had some very bad experiences with giving a 'win' to the other side when playing as team evil. In two cases I've allowed a character to stay dead - one after they were murdered in cold blood and people just. Swept it under the rug, nobody cared?

It was really a case of trying to allow them to have something they did actually matter and just it ended up being taken in such bad faith that truthfully I'd have a hard time ever wanting to put myself in that sort of a situation again.

Sometimes it's also a case of 'team good' does really bad things that, really, certain characters -should- react to. but they don't because of OOC or IC friendship? So it's not for a lack of trying sometimes but, once that trust is breached (Especially repeatedly) it makes people far less likely to want to interact again. I feel like it's hard to hit the right balance though.

[D4wN]

I've on a few occasions had some very bad experiences with giving a 'win' to the other side when playing as team evil. In two cases I've allowed a character to stay dead - one after they were murdered in cold blood and people just. Swept it under the rug, nobody cared?

It was really a case of trying to allow them to have something they did actually matter and just it ended up being taken in such bad faith that truthfully I'd have a hard time ever wanting to put myself in that sort of a situation again.

Sometimes it's also a case of 'team good' does really bad things that, really, certain characters -should- react to. but they don't because of OOC or IC friendship? So it's not for a lack of trying sometimes but, once that trust is breached (Especially repeatedly) it makes people far less likely to want to interact again. I feel like it's hard to hit the right balance though.

I can tell you that this happens on both sides. And it comes back to that trust that was spoken of. I've seen people on UD and Surface side act in bad faith taking advantage of or ignoring consequences of death and/or captures. This doesn't really have anything to do with 'team good' or 'team evil'. It's just certain players who do this. Sometimes you give someone the benefit of the doubt and it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.

[Naiinara]

Once I had a paladin that put a Mark of Justice on a captive. The trigger situation being not to engage in the activity that caused the problem. It's entirely role play. Up to the the captive if they even want it, or how hard they believe it is to remove.

Another character once caught a necromancer and because my character was...less than honourable offered to forget seeing anything for a small sum of coin. Generally I keep these to 100 gold or less. The amount trivial - the RP is all that matters. That time the necromancer wouldn't pay, so my character got a good description and tattled. You know...probably would have taken the coin then tried to get a reward for tattling anyway. Maybe the necromancer just knew my character to well.

Generally I just try and hope. I think often people are afraid the other side wont go along with the idea, because it's not mechanically enforced. You just got to try.

[Edens_Fall]

I'm kind of curious about what sort of punishments could be offered that wouldn't jeopardize the Good PC's standing in society as a whole. Can the guards of Cordor justify letting a Drow raider work off their crime in a cell or field? What about a Necromancer? A goblin? A yuan-ti? A vampire? It just seems to me that a good majority of punishments for a good majority of the evil races can be nothing less than death on sight, with no chance to rez and RP, because why would a paladin ever do so?

Other than surface criminals and pirates, it feels that by their own nature, Good aligned PCs are rather limited in their punishment options when dealing with opposing forces, while Evil PCs are free to act in any way they deem fit.

I am not saying I don't support the idea; I would very much enjoy seeing other avenues of conflict resolution beyond the "Evil Monster Die!" approach. I am just unsure how it can be done without discrediting any Good PC that tries. Maybe by having a neutral or evil PC make the settlement laws for the Good PCs to enforce, but then that would raise a whole other issue of Good PCs serving Evil rulers. It's rather vexing and one of the reasons I have always enjoyed Evil over Good. Flexibility in Roleplay.

[Hazard]

I'm kind of curious about what sort of punishments could be offered that wouldn't jeopardize the Good PC's standing in society as a whole. Can the guards of Cordor justify letting a Drow raider work off their crime in a cell or field? What about a Necromancer? A goblin? A yuan-ti? A vampire? It just seems to me that a good majority of punishments for a good majority of the evil races can be nothing less than death on sight, with no chance to rez and RP, because why would a paladin ever do so?

Other than surface criminals and pirates, it feels that by their own nature, Good aligned PCs are rather limited in their punishment options when dealing with opposing forces, while Evil PCs are free to act in any way they deem fit.

I am not saying I don't support the idea; I would very much enjoy seeing other avenues of conflict resolution beyond the "Evil Monster Die!" approach. I am just unsure how it can be done without discrediting any Good PC that tries. Maybe by having a neutral or evil PC make the settlement laws for the Good PCs to enforce, but then that would raise a whole other issue of Good PCs serving Evil rulers. It's rather vexing and one of the reasons I have always enjoyed Evil over Good. Flexibility in Roleplay.

I can totally understand the moral difficulties of letting an irredeemable monster go, especially if it is literally a monster like a Vampire or a Drow or something, especially since Arelith governments and law enforcement tend to be made up of adventurers who already have a lot of holes punched in their psychopath cards; that is to say, they regularly go out and massacre entire dungeons full of monstrers while chatting and laughing with their friends, just to get to the end and either fist pump or curse their luck depending on what sort of loot they find.

Most criminals probably won't fall into that category and could be given other punishments such as manacles, prison time, community services, etc.

For a PC that you really 'should' kill, such as a monster, I think an alternative would be to set an execution date and leave them locked up until then. Make the date somewhere in the future, because of honour/respect/beurocracy/whatever excuse you can come up with, even if it's just "we have a lot going on", giving them enough time to attempt an escape or something.

Chuck them into long term holding, or some kind of 'death row' where it is expected they will serve a life sentence (not really, they'll escape) or be executed eventually down the line. Assume that the NPC guards will handle this and that your own characters have more important things to do. This alleviates the good guy of responsibility, heck you might not even come to realise the enemy escaped at all if they're clever and keep a low-profile or don't come back (because that would be foolish). Of course if the enemy does just come back, they seem to not be showing the respect you have been, so that's on them then, and they'll likely quickly wear out any courtesy others were willing to give them.

It essentially comes down to, not looking for a win. Let the enemy get away, or at least let your character 'think' that they won, when in reality something else happened without them being aware of it.

It is true that evil characters have it far easier, but that's part of the difficulty of playing a good character, just as it is a difficulty of being a good person in real life. The righteous, good decisions are often more difficult and require more sacrifice, and evil does tend to be the easiest option and most tempting/appealing to those who just don't care about others.

Being good isn't easy. It doesn't come with many if any advantages. It isn't supposed to.

[Kythana]

If you're playing a devout pc/priest, you could possibly have them undergo some sort of "cleansing" ritual to purge the evil from their soul. (Even if it fails, and they just lie.)

Interrogate and offer the chance at freedom if they agree to work as a double agent. (Again, they can still lie! Or this might even permit an evil to neutral aligned arc.)

Use them as bait/leverage for a prisoner exchange. Maybe there's a slave in the UD you want to free, and if this high ranking member is returned unharmed, someone of your choice gets returned as well.

Or maybe it's just used as a way to force a meeting in a location of your choice.

One of the initial options was curses too, and I don't see why this isn't a valid option? Obviously you would have to flavor it differently, but I don't see why you couldn't do this. There's even precedent in one of the games, if you're looking for an idea of where to start. https://torment.fandom.com/wiki/Fhjull_Forked-Tongue

Blood sports can just be re-flavored as trial by combat. Especially if it's a spectacle with a cleric of a good/lawful deity presiding over it. If players are calling your character evil for doing so, who cares...? There are a million different good aligned actions you can take that will have other characters screeching this.

In terms of long term capture, I can't really see this being done on monsters at all.

However, for petty criminals/human animators, warlocks, ect, I'm sure you could introduce a concept of a 're-education' camp or 'reform' program. Possibly with an entire group/faction committed to it.

Have them go on pilgrimages, under a tutor. Teach them the error of their ways. And sure, this could also include the resource gathering/monster slaying that was initially suggested.

I don't really think you need mechanics for this. Any sort of capture style RP is already opt in by the losing party. It's your job now to impress them to stick around.

Looking at all the counterpoints or alternative options in the UD/evil aligned places, I don't really see a big distinction. All of those require ooc consent regardless.

The only thing I could think of that would work would require significant mechanical overhauls. But, having some sort of penal colony that evil characters can be jailed to would be interesting. Prisoner island or something, where you could either do some quests to work off your time, or plot with other players to escape.

[Oxtail_Soup]

Echoing Hazard here, but I quite liked the jail time option too. My old paladin at Benwick fell out with the High Priestess over a bargain she made to rescue someone from Hell, and he spent an IRL week in a cell at her order, growing a beard and being stubborn (including refusing to wash or leave said cell until he received an apology). Eventually he had to be negotiated out.

Another punishment we used on occasion were three lashes with a fishing pole using smite, awarded after a nice elaborate trial, which was a lot cleaner than a clumsy death sentence where you'd notify someone from their guild to pick them up and res from where you 'buried' them.

[D4wN]

I'm kind of curious about what sort of punishments could be offered that wouldn't jeopardize the Good PC's standing in society as a whole. Can the guards of Cordor justify letting a Drow raider work off their crime in a cell or field? What about a Necromancer? A goblin? A yuan-ti? A vampire? It just seems to me that a good majority of punishments for a good majority of the evil races can be nothing less than death on sight, with no chance to rez and RP, because why would a paladin ever do so?

Other than surface criminals and pirates, it feels that by their own nature, Good aligned PCs are rather limited in their punishment options when dealing with opposing forces, while Evil PCs are free to act in any way they deem fit.

I am not saying I don't support the idea; I would very much enjoy seeing other avenues of conflict resolution beyond the "Evil Monster Die!" approach. I am just unsure how it can be done without discrediting any Good PC that tries. Maybe by having a neutral or evil PC make the settlement laws for the Good PCs to enforce, but then that would raise a whole other issue of Good PCs serving Evil rulers. It's rather vexing and one of the reasons I have always enjoyed Evil over Good. Flexibility in Roleplay.

This was sort of my original point yes. I think for every day criminals we have a lot of creative options, which we've already applied. I'm always open to more ideas though. It's the monsters and people like Animators and what not, I am not so sure on how to handle them other than death or letting them go. Would be hard to justify letting an Ogre work in your local tarven as a bartender to work off his sentence for being an ogre Still though, Mark of Justice and other 'goodly' such "curses" etc is also a neat idea for these things. I remember once I took someone's personal evil item and imbued it with good Celestial powers in the hope to bring out their emotions like empathy, remorse etc. Feedback was they really enjoyed that. So that's another option that could be applied to such beings. But even then those are often still humans etc. Not so sure what else to do with a vampire for example but stake them.

[D4wN]

If you're playing a devout pc/priest, you could possibly have them undergo some sort of "cleansing" ritual to purge the evil from their soul. (Even if it fails, and they just lie.)

Interrogate and offer the chance at freedom if they agree to work as a double agent. (Again, they can still lie! Or this might even permit an evil to neutral aligned arc.)

Use them as bait/leverage for a prisoner exchange. Maybe there's a slave in the UD you want to free, and if this high ranking member is returned unharmed, someone of your choice gets returned as well.

Or maybe it's just used as a way to force a meeting in a location of your choice.

One of the initial options was curses too, and I don't see why this isn't a valid option? Obviously you would have to flavor it differently, but I don't see why you couldn't do this. There's even precedent in one of the games, if you're looking for an idea of where to start. https://torment.fandom.com/wiki/Fhjull_Forked-Tongue

Blood sports can just be re-flavored as trial by combat. Especially if it's a spectacle with a cleric of a good/lawful deity presiding over it. If players are calling your character evil for doing so, who cares...? There are a million different good aligned actions you can take that will have other characters screeching this.

In terms of long term capture, I can't really see this being done on monsters at all.

However, for petty criminals/human animators, warlocks, ect, I'm sure you could introduce a concept of a 're-education' camp or 'reform' program. Possibly with an entire group/faction committed to it.

Have them go on pilgrimages, under a tutor. Teach them the error of their ways. And sure, this could also include the resource gathering/monster slaying that was initially suggested.

I don't really think you need mechanics for this. Any sort of capture style RP is already opt in by the losing party. It's your job now to impress them to stick around.

Looking at all the counterpoints or alternative options in the UD/evil aligned places, I don't really see a big distinction. All of those require ooc consent regardless.

The only thing I could think of that would work would require significant mechanical overhauls. But, having some sort of penal colony that evil characters can be jailed to would be interesting. Prisoner island or something, where you could either do some quests to work off your time, or plot with other players to escape.

All of these are amazing! Thank you so much.

[Aeryeris]

I'm kind of curious about what sort of punishments could be offered that wouldn't jeopardize the Good PC's standing in society as a whole. Can the guards of Cordor justify letting a Drow raider work off their crime in a cell or field? What about a Necromancer? A goblin? A yuan-ti? A vampire? It just seems to me that a good majority of punishments for a good majority of the evil races can be nothing less than death on sight, with no chance to rez and RP, because why would a paladin ever do so?

Other than surface criminals and pirates, it feels that by their own nature, Good aligned PCs are rather limited in their punishment options when dealing with opposing forces, while Evil PCs are free to act in any way they deem fit.

I am not saying I don't support the idea; I would very much enjoy seeing other avenues of conflict resolution beyond the "Evil Monster Die!" approach. I am just unsure how it can be done without discrediting any Good PC that tries. Maybe by having a neutral or evil PC make the settlement laws for the Good PCs to enforce, but then that would raise a whole other issue of Good PCs serving Evil rulers. It's rather vexing and one of the reasons I have always enjoyed Evil over Good. Flexibility in Roleplay.

I can totally understand the moral difficulties of letting an irredeemable monster go, especially if it is literally a monster like a Vampire or a Drow or something, especially since Arelith governments and law enforcement tend to be made up of adventurers who already have a lot of holes punched in their psychopath cards; that is to say, they regularly go out and massacre entire dungeons full of monstrers while chatting and laughing with their friends, just to get to the end and either fist pump or curse their luck depending on what sort of loot they find.

Most criminals probably won't fall into that category and could be given other punishments such as manacles, prison time, community services, etc.

For a PC that you really 'should' kill, such as a monster, I think an alternative would be to set an execution date and leave them locked up until then. Make the date somewhere in the future, because of honour/respect/beurocracy/whatever excuse you can come up with, even if it's just "we have a lot going on", giving them enough time to attempt an escape or something.

Chuck them into long term holding, or some kind of 'death row' where it is expected they will serve a life sentence (not really, they'll escape) or be executed eventually down the line. Assume that the NPC guards will handle this and that your own characters have more important things to do. This alleviates the good guy of responsibility, heck you might not even come to realise the enemy escaped at all if they're clever and keep a low-profile or don't come back (because that would be foolish). Of course if the enemy does just come back, they seem to not be showing the respect you have been, so that's on them then, and they'll likely quickly wear out any courtesy others were willing to give them.

It essentially comes down to, not looking for a win. Let the enemy get away, or at least let your character 'think' that they won, when in reality something else happened without them being aware of it.

It is true that evil characters have it far easier, but that's part of the difficulty of playing a good character, just as it is a difficulty of being a good person in real life. The righteous, good decisions are often more difficult and require more sacrifice, and evil does tend to be the easiest option and most tempting/appealing to those who just don't care about others.

Being good isn't easy. It doesn't come with many if any advantages. It isn't supposed to.

The Cordor prison was redesigned last year with exactly this sort of thing in mind. It's been extremely helpful for us to have a lot of mechanical support for PCs orchestrating their own escape or being broken out.

We have had assassins busted out by their friends, people slipped notes in from the outside, intrigue with guards unlawfully killing a prisoner to settle a grudge only to be spotted via the lodestar node in the cell and confronted.

It would be extremely good to have other jails reworked based on the Cordor model.

• 1 inescapable cell for short holding.
• A few cells with difficult escape options only available to people with investment in certain skills or who come prepared with a stolen cell key. Think lock picking, slight of hand, having a cell key.
• A few cells with escape options based on a mini game that do not require any skill investment. Think secret passages, bribable NPC's.
• Options for people from the outside to get in to at least a section of the jail through exploration without having to have a 127 DC quarterbreaker. Think secret passages, bribable NPC's etc.

Ideally I think each jail would be unique and not an exact copy, but to have these general concepts present in most commonly used jails would really enhance the experience.

[Hazard]

I'm kind of curious about what sort of punishments could be offered that wouldn't jeopardize the Good PC's standing in society as a whole. Can the guards of Cordor justify letting a Drow raider work off their crime in a cell or field? What about a Necromancer? A goblin? A yuan-ti? A vampire? It just seems to me that a good majority of punishments for a good majority of the evil races can be nothing less than death on sight, with no chance to rez and RP, because why would a paladin ever do so?

Other than surface criminals and pirates, it feels that by their own nature, Good aligned PCs are rather limited in their punishment options when dealing with opposing forces, while Evil PCs are free to act in any way they deem fit.

I am not saying I don't support the idea; I would very much enjoy seeing other avenues of conflict resolution beyond the "Evil Monster Die!" approach. I am just unsure how it can be done without discrediting any Good PC that tries. Maybe by having a neutral or evil PC make the settlement laws for the Good PCs to enforce, but then that would raise a whole other issue of Good PCs serving Evil rulers. It's rather vexing and one of the reasons I have always enjoyed Evil over Good. Flexibility in Roleplay.

I can totally understand the moral difficulties of letting an irredeemable monster go, especially if it is literally a monster like a Vampire or a Drow or something, especially since Arelith governments and law enforcement tend to be made up of adventurers who already have a lot of holes punched in their psychopath cards; that is to say, they regularly go out and massacre entire dungeons full of monstrers while chatting and laughing with their friends, just to get to the end and either fist pump or curse their luck depending on what sort of loot they find.

Most criminals probably won't fall into that category and could be given other punishments such as manacles, prison time, community services, etc.

For a PC that you really 'should' kill, such as a monster, I think an alternative would be to set an execution date and leave them locked up until then. Make the date somewhere in the future, because of honour/respect/beurocracy/whatever excuse you can come up with, even if it's just "we have a lot going on", giving them enough time to attempt an escape or something.

Chuck them into long term holding, or some kind of 'death row' where it is expected they will serve a life sentence (not really, they'll escape) or be executed eventually down the line. Assume that the NPC guards will handle this and that your own characters have more important things to do. This alleviates the good guy of responsibility, heck you might not even come to realise the enemy escaped at all if they're clever and keep a low-profile or don't come back (because that would be foolish). Of course if the enemy does just come back, they seem to not be showing the respect you have been, so that's on them then, and they'll likely quickly wear out any courtesy others were willing to give them.

It essentially comes down to, not looking for a win. Let the enemy get away, or at least let your character 'think' that they won, when in reality something else happened without them being aware of it.

It is true that evil characters have it far easier, but that's part of the difficulty of playing a good character, just as it is a difficulty of being a good person in real life. The righteous, good decisions are often more difficult and require more sacrifice, and evil does tend to be the easiest option and most tempting/appealing to those who just don't care about others.

Being good isn't easy. It doesn't come with many if any advantages. It isn't supposed to.

The Cordor prison was redesigned last year with exactly this sort of thing in mind. It's been extremely helpful for us to have a lot of mechanical support for PCs orchestrating their own escape or being broken out.

We have had assassins busted out by their friends, people slipped notes in from the outside, intrigue with guards unlawfully killing a prisoner to settle a grudge only to be spotted via the lodestar node in the cell and confronted.

It would be extremely good to have other jails reworked based on the Cordor model.

• 1 inescapable cell for short holding.
• A few cells with difficult escape options only available to people with investment in certain skills or who come prepared with a stolen cell key. Think lock picking, slight of hand, having a cell key.
• A few cells with escape options based on a mini game that do not require any skill investment. Think secret passages, bribable NPC's.
• Options for people from the outside to get in to at least a section of the jail through exploration without having to have a 127 DC quarterbreaker. Think secret passages, bribable NPC's etc.

Ideally I think each jail would be unique and not an exact copy, but to have these general concepts present in most commonly used jails would really enhance the experience.

Great ideas and sounds super fun.

[Diegovog]

Maybe issue settlements an NPC that can spawn up to 2 special manacles at a time that brand someone using them immediately Prisoner. Said manacles could last 3 IRL days and once they are free, another manacle can't be re-applied before 48h of freedom. These manacles are expensive in resources. Settlement leader has the power to free any of these prisoners.

This would give enough freedom for the prisoner to perform tasks in order to be freed earlier and hey, if they wanna go inactive for these days, it's just 3 days. And if they wanna stick around and pay their dues and rp, it would be a way for the "good" team to have prisoners and not be branded evil because of modern-day standards.

[Amateur Hour]

The main thing to remember, in my opinion, is which people are terrible because of things they are doing versus things they are.

When we're talking about vampires, yuan-ti, kobolds, etc. they can't stop being what they are: threats to ordinary people trying to live their lives. There's not much to be done about them, though with some monsters you might get something cool out of a ritualized execution (making sure they are extremely and truly dead, holding it in public as a warning to any other monsters who might get the bright idea of walking into Cordor, etc.) which of course takes planning, and while there is planning there can be escape...and occasionally you might get someone who actually goes through with it.

But with anything that's terrible because of what they are doing, there remains the possibility of them stopping doing the terrible things. While I know the vast majority of people making animators or fiend-summoning blackguards want to play animators or fiend-summoning blackguards and don't want to change, that doesn't change the fact that they theoretically can change. I think most of us are aware of one relatively-recent prominent case to this effect, and whatever your feelings about it on the player level, no one can reasonably deny that it generated a ton of story and plot around it (including stories hinging on the fact that not everyone believed the change was sincere). The balance between giving second changes and saying "we are done here" is tricky with any kind of story, but there's a lot of potential in there.

[AnselHoenheim]

I've on a few occasions had some very bad experiences with giving a 'win' to the other side when playing as team evil. In two cases I've allowed a character to stay dead - one after they were murdered in cold blood and people just. Swept it under the rug, nobody cared?

It was really a case of trying to allow them to have something they did actually matter and just it ended up being taken in such bad faith that truthfully I'd have a hard time ever wanting to put myself in that sort of a situation again.

Sometimes it's also a case of 'team good' does really bad things that, really, certain characters -should- react to. but they don't because of OOC or IC friendship? So it's not for a lack of trying sometimes but, once that trust is breached (Especially repeatedly) it makes people far less likely to want to interact again. I feel like it's hard to hit the right balance though.

I can tell you that this happens on both sides. And it comes back to that trust that was spoken of. I've seen people on UD and Surface side act in bad faith taking advantage of or ignoring consequences of death and/or captures. This doesn't really have anything to do with 'team good' or 'team evil'. It's just certain players who do this. Sometimes you give someone the benefit of the doubt and it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.

Perhaps it is time to report those kind of people and let the DMs deal with punishments for avoiding constantly consequences and not taking death seriously? I think there is nothing we can really do except trusting the punishments are sent accordingly if it is a recurrent behavour.

[D4wN]

I've on a few occasions had some very bad experiences with giving a 'win' to the other side when playing as team evil. In two cases I've allowed a character to stay dead - one after they were murdered in cold blood and people just. Swept it under the rug, nobody cared?

It was really a case of trying to allow them to have something they did actually matter and just it ended up being taken in such bad faith that truthfully I'd have a hard time ever wanting to put myself in that sort of a situation again.

Sometimes it's also a case of 'team good' does really bad things that, really, certain characters -should- react to. but they don't because of OOC or IC friendship? So it's not for a lack of trying sometimes but, once that trust is breached (Especially repeatedly) it makes people far less likely to want to interact again. I feel like it's hard to hit the right balance though.

I can tell you that this happens on both sides. And it comes back to that trust that was spoken of. I've seen people on UD and Surface side act in bad faith taking advantage of or ignoring consequences of death and/or captures. This doesn't really have anything to do with 'team good' or 'team evil'. It's just certain players who do this. Sometimes you give someone the benefit of the doubt and it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.

Perhaps it is time to report those kind of people and let the DMs deal with punishments for avoiding constantly consequences and not taking death seriously? I think there is nothing we can really do except trusting the punishments are sent accordingly if it is a recurrent behavour.

For sure, when they happen I do report them. And I encourage people to do the same.

[D4wN]

The main thing to remember, in my opinion, is which people are terrible because of things they are doing versus things they are.

When we're talking about vampires, yuan-ti, kobolds, etc. they can't stop being what they are: threats to ordinary people trying to live their lives. There's not much to be done about them, though with some monsters you might get something cool out of a ritualized execution (making sure they are extremely and truly dead, holding it in public as a warning to any other monsters who might get the bright idea of walking into Cordor, etc.) which of course takes planning, and while there is planning there can be escape...and occasionally you might get someone who actually goes through with it.

But with anything that's terrible because of what they are doing, there remains the possibility of them stopping doing the terrible things. While I know the vast majority of people making animators or fiend-summoning blackguards want to play animators or fiend-summoning blackguards and don't want to change, that doesn't change the fact that they theoretically can change. I think most of us are aware of one relatively-recent prominent case to this effect, and whatever your feelings about it on the player level, no one can reasonably deny that it generated a ton of story and plot around it (including stories hinging on the fact that not everyone believed the change was sincere). The balance between giving second changes and saying "we are done here" is tricky with any kind of story, but there's a lot of potential in there.

I 100% agree. What you want to do as a player versus what your character -could- do are separate things. I also agree with Aeryeris' post. The Cordor prison is my favourite because it allows a lot of different ways for people to escape. I could lock someone up and they could work their way out. Oh no dang, they escape me. Next time tho, next time! Problem is, Cordor prison is the only prison that has this. I've been imprisoned on my villain in Guld, and I got lucky with timing in my escape but 99% of the time you can't escape from it. Same with Bendir. Same with Saltspar or the DT prison or most other prisons now with runic manacles in play. It would just be neat to allow that to be an option. Especially for monsters so you can just let them "rot" in jail so to speak while they just work out a way to find their freedom.

[Nobs]

Build Prison island.

All towns can send criminals there.
The island has 1 big boss that roams around to kill prisoners.
Have a few ways to get out (including killing the boss with fellow prisoners)
Have a way to break prisoners out from the outside aswel.

[D4wN]

Build Prison island.

All towns can send criminals there.
The island has 1 big boss that roams around to kill prisoners.
Have a few ways to get out (including killing the boss with fellow prisoners)
Have a way to break prisoners out from the outside aswel.

We call it Australia

[Nobs]

I for one would love to get send to prison then every now and then

[Bazelgeuse]

Ultimatly this comes down to trust. You offer the other player the chance to go with something neat. If they go with it? Awsome! Keep it in mind! Respect it. Say thanks to the player ooc. Consider ways you can run with their story later ect ect. Groovy stuff! If they don't? Well - then that player can't entirely blame themselves later future options arn't open.
As for the complaints - well you can always say you offered them ways out, and if they didn't take it - that's on them.

The counter argument against more mechanical punishments (And again, please keep in mind I'm not actually against such, this is just putting up a counter argument to keep in mind) is that it pushes the trust barrier the other way.

Imagine, if you will, that settlment leaders had the power to give any citizen pc they want the 'Wand of Death' tool. This wand, when used at any pc, instantly killed them and deleted their character, if said character was within the settlment.

Would you ever visit any other settlment beyond Cordor? Knowing your pc could just be deleted like that, for any reason?

Now this is an extreme of course, but whilst we do want to give people tools for consequence, we also have to keep in mind how those tools can be abused, how often they might be abused, and the long term effects of the fear of that abuse.

Very true. Collaborative efforts require trust - and the unfortunate thing is that it's very easy for that trust to be broken, whether knowingly or not, and the moments when said trust has been broken stand out strongly in your mind and often discourage from trying again.

I don't know if there's any elegant solutions from this. If there's a way to cheese things and "I MUST WIN" through mechanical means, they'll be used.

[Ellisaria]

Very true. Collaborative efforts require trust - and the unfortunate thing is that it's very easy for that trust to be broken, whether knowingly or not, and the moments when said trust has been broken stand out strongly in your mind and often discourage from trying again.

I don't know if there's any elegant solutions from this. If there's a way to cheese things and "I MUST WIN" through mechanical means, they'll be used.

This, 100%.

I imagine that many of the people who don’t want to participate in a certain type of RP aren’t willing to collaborate not because they lack the desire or skill to RP, but because they absolutely do not trust the other side of that proposed “collaboration.”

Keeping oneself far away from those that effectively stifle your enjoyment is more important than what they think about your choices.

[Naiinara]

Not so sure what else to do with a vampire for example but stake them.

Leave them out in the sun to face Lathander's justice. You could leave them, your character expecting them to die, but they manage some heroic escape. Or you could just sit there and have some sort of meaningful conversation with them before the end.

For myself the character losing/dying doesn't matter as much as the story value of how it came about.

I once had a character in the Cordor Guard catch a pickpocket. I believe they got offered the choice of attempting to resist arrest (probably pvp), being taken to a cell and trying all that scheduling and wait for a trial stuff, or I'd just RP drag them out of Cordor by the ear. The person choose drag out by the ear. We did. Then my character had some of the other guards throw them down and kick them, and we left them beat up alive on the road.

[Edens_Fall]

I do enjoy the idea of a neutral NPC (maybe Thayans?) prison or location that all settlements above and below can cart people to not unlike the old frontier days in America with Yuma prison. Once inside players can escape via several ways and settlements can blame the NPC guards lack of skill or corruption at the constant escapes.

The best part is the location would allow both monsters and surfacers to interact with each other inside as fellow inmates. To work together or be at odds.

Would also eliminate the need for each settlement to have a cordor level prison, cutting Dev investment time on such an update.