Surface Evil Needs Another Home

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I wish the existing settlements were a lot seedier. At least parts of them. The surface seems like a gentrified neighborhood. It's too clean and nice and tame in general. Why couldn't lower Cordor or the Guldorand docks be a place you just don't go alone, especially at night?

The cities aren't big enough for this, really. If the server had one major city on the surface that was gigantic, then something like this could very much work. But since its spread out across multiple settlements, it only makes sense that the bad guys have a settlement of their own that doesn't involve being an outcast hiding in the underdark or a pirate. Both of those things are fine for the playerbase they serve, but forgotten realms is filled with cities run by evil leaders, ect. It makes sense that arelith would have something that fits that sort of concept.

As for the comparisons to wharftown...I started the week it got blown up, but I do pay attention. We are talking about a small town founded by a paladin that was eventually coopted by a long-standing evil group. As is true of most long-standing groups of level 30s, especially back then when gold counts were obscene, there was little else for them to do save for instigate pvp. And they had the declaration of war mechanic back then to pick a fight with Cordor whenever they wanted. The last time they did that, Irongron in what was probably his finest moment gave them exactly what they were asking for even though they didn't know it...war with a powerful city and a powerful ally in Amn.

Nuking from the sea commenced, wharftown is no more. Surely, we can avoid those pitfalls going forward, can we not?

[Eira]

The problem I see with that is when people say surface evil, rarely is it that they mean gangs, seediness, extortion, corruption, blackmail, assassination, murder, snake oil, curses, smugglers.

They mean: "I want to use undead and fiends and have open monster buddies without anyone getting mad".

I'd love a surface evil town. I would not love a surface Andunor. They should have different cultures. Open surface evil should mean something fitting, that isn't "here is an obvious threat just hanging about for some reason".

I've long envisioned a place that had some sort of gang/turf system, a shanty town, a place where you know you're going into a dangerous area... where you might get mugged by a bunch of kenku, but at least a drow won't enslave you. Perhaps you suspect that old lady is a hag, but as long as she keeps a human face on, it's honestly safer to not question it and accept her very cheap potions.

[The GrumpyCat]

I feel the basic push here is towards the C and D options - which is to say (as other people have pointed out) Mostly more acceptance of evil summons, and maybe monster races and such.

In a way this is a good thing, because A and B of my options were pretty much already possible and didn't require any input Dm side.

The idea of a settlment where undead and the like are allowed is possible. It perhaps could be deemed a little odd -but absolutly possible in theory.

There are a few issues that come with this though, to consider.

*If it is a full on 'Settlment' - voting and all that, then how do you keep it out of (please forgive the term) 'Team good's hands?

*If it's a settlment just in general terms, how do you prevent there being a lot of PvP in it - we already get this (understandable!) concern from Sencliff. Accusations that newbe pirates are murdered by 'Team good' on a regular basis, because they can come willy nilly. And this is from an island which is otherwise deemed very remote. A less remote area, one easier to reach, is going to deal with this problem even more.

*If we have some sort of prevention for this, how to deal with the frustration that comes with it? Andunor almost straddles this line. It's remote, has the settlment rules protecting it to a degree, but most of all it has a very large incumbent group of PCs in it. It we compre to Sencliff, for example, it has at any one time probably five or ten times the amount of players there. So going all out to attack Andunor is generally considered a bit nuts. It has an amount of protection and whilst that makes sense, it already makes a bit of frustration from some people as their friends/allies/pet hamsters are captured, and cannot be 'saved.' As raiding groups come out of Andunor, attack, and then vanish again.

The concern then is we'd either get a Wharftown stiautin - with regular raiding groups hopping out, murdering people, and vanishing back into an impregnable fortress of a settlment...

Or if not a settlment, then the problems that come from having groups regularly 'attack' the place, killing those in it and making it relitivly undesirable to live in.

Add on to the fact that Irongron has spoken before (and I can't dissagree) that there's a danger of spreading out activity hubs too far.

If tomorrow Irongron wants to add a settlment like this, I won't complain, but I can't help but think it makes more sense to use some of the other areas (Sibiyad, Shadow wharftown, Dis, Skal to an extent) and/or work on... large aspects of player culture and pvp culture.

[Edens_Fall]

I wish the existing settlements were a lot seedier. At least parts of them. The surface seems like a gentrified neighborhood. It's too clean and nice and tame in general. Why couldn't lower Cordor or the Guldorand docks be a place you just don't go alone, especially at night? Maybe the crops could fail and Arelith hits dire economic times and shanties of desperate NPCs set up outside Cordor's walls. I just never get a sense there's a real criminal element at all, or a poverty and a desperate underclass who might turn to crime creating some actual moral questions about what to do about them. Instead it just all feels so tame, where the nearby caves of monsters are just a contained nuisance and the real threats are a long way away and not really a threat to the surface way of life (except the occasional Anundor raid or DM story, of course).

Interesting you mention this. I tried a similar approach with a PC who was High Sheriff of Guld for a short time. Basically, I ordered the City Watch and Garrison to avoid sending patrols to the Freeport in order to allow criminal elements to grow and take root. If a crime was reported they were to drag their feet in dealing with it unless it was a real crazy threat. But murders and crime, so long as it happened in Freeport, was to be ignored. After all, that was the part of the city didn't pay taxes. Why should we care what happens there?

The issue I noticed is even with the settlement guard force leaving the area alone, independant "Good" ordos, guilds, or even Myon elves would take it upon themselves to police the Freeport. Thus ending the experiment. That is the main issue I see with open surface evil. They will need a secure place to settle and grow with some form of setting plot armor. Otherwise, you will just have to remain hidden evil until you outed and flee to the Cliff or Andunor.

[Eyeliner]

The problem I see with that is when people say surface evil, rarely is it that they mean gangs, seediness, extortion, corruption, blackmail, assassination, murder, snake oil, curses, smugglers.

They mean: "I want to use undead and fiends and have open monster buddies without anyone getting mad".

I don't think this is a universal truth. People like to play low level criminals who pickpocket and quarterbreak and would like to be muggers on city streets or bandits on the roads, but the problem is the punishment is too extreme when you're caught so you can't really base a character on that behavior, or if you do it's so underground it barely makes a ripple. You may as well be a necromancer because the reaction and punishment you get as a supervillian or a petty thug is about the same.

I think if it were a little easier to play those things you mention though- and I don't mean accepted, but "tolerated" to a certain degree for whatever reason (you only have to look to real life to see what those reasons are, maybe there's a powerful crime syndicate that controls things) you'd see that RP blossom.

[Edens_Fall]

The problem I see with that is when people say surface evil, rarely is it that they mean gangs, seediness, extortion, corruption, blackmail, assassination, murder, snake oil, curses, smugglers.

They mean: "I want to use undead and fiends and have open monster buddies without anyone getting mad".

I'd love a surface evil town. I would not love a surface Andunor. They should have different cultures. Open surface evil should mean something fitting, that isn't "here is an obvious threat just hanging about for some reason".

I've long envisioned a place that had some sort of gang/turf system, a shanty town, a place where you know you're going into a dangerous area... where you might get mugged by a bunch of kenku, but at least a drow won't enslave you. Perhaps you suspect that old lady is a hag, but as long as she keeps a human face on, it's honestly safer to not question it and accept her very cheap potions.

I agree. There is no need to allow Monster races to live in an evil surface town, though allowing visits might be interesting. As far as walking around with undead and devils . . . personally, I feel this is less the issue than simply having a place to exist. Right now, if you are uncovered as a necromancer, what are your options? Settlements spread the word via boards to each other, and you'll find yourself a Pariah or Exile everywhere, as every settlement is good these days. That leaves the Cliff, Sibayad, or Andunor. Of those, only Andunor really offers safety from team-good hunting parties, as the other two simply don't have a force to counter raids.

So we agree there, I think.

[Hazard]

I feel the basic push here is towards the C and D options - which is to say (as other people have pointed out) Mostly more acceptance of evil summons, and maybe monster races and such.

In a way this is a good thing, because A and B of my options were pretty much already possible and didn't require any input Dm side.

The idea of a settlment where undead and the like are allowed is possible. It perhaps could be deemed a little odd -but absolutly possible in theory.

There are a few issues that come with this though, to consider.

*If it is a full on 'Settlment' - voting and all that, then how do you keep it out of (please forgive the term) 'Team good's hands?

*If it's a settlment just in general terms, how do you prevent there being a lot of PvP in it - we already get this (understandable!) concern from Sencliff. Accusations that newbe pirates are murdered by 'Team good' on a regular basis, because they can come willy nilly. And this is from an island which is otherwise deemed very remote. A less remote area, one easier to reach, is going to deal with this problem even more.

*If we have some sort of prevention for this, how to deal with the frustration that comes with it? Andunor almost straddles this line. It's remote, has the settlment rules protecting it to a degree, but most of all it has a very large incumbent group of PCs in it. It we compre to Sencliff, for example, it has at any one time probably five or ten times the amount of players there. So going all out to attack Andunor is generally considered a bit nuts. It has an amount of protection and whilst that makes sense, it already makes a bit of frustration from some people as their friends/allies/pet hamsters are captured, and cannot be 'saved.' As raiding groups come out of Andunor, attack, and then vanish again.

The concern then is we'd either get a Wharftown stiautin - with regular raiding groups hopping out, murdering people, and vanishing back into an impregnable fortress of a settlment...

Or if not a settlment, then the problems that come from having groups regularly 'attack' the place, killing those in it and making it relitivly undesirable to live in.

Add on to the fact that Irongron has spoken before (and I can't dissagree) that there's a danger of spreading out activity hubs too far.

If tomorrow Irongron wants to add a settlment like this, I won't complain, but I can't help but think it makes more sense to use some of the other areas (Sibiyad, Shadow wharftown, Dis, Skal to an extent) and/or work on... large aspects of player culture and pvp culture.

Just brain-storming, but maybe it being Bane themed like others had suggested would help mitigate some of the problems. Giving it a lawful evil vibe, might encourage those based out of this theoretical town to not just go around raiding and attacking without reasons, and the leadership if Banite/Zhent could be linked in some vague ways diplomatically to both Cordor and Guldorand NPCs, so that if things do get out of hand between surface forces there's a precedent to be like 'Woah. Hold on there. Do you really want to piss off this new town, Cordor royalty and a section of Guldorand all at once?'

I really love Skal, but it's level locked, and part of its charm is that max levels can't establish themselves there. I do like that level 30s can visit for 24 hours if they're well behaved (if that's still a thing), but opening it up might change it dramatically and I would hate to see that charm lost. It's also a great place for people to just figure out how to RP without being judged too harshly, or have their characters turned into paste because they summoned babby's first evil minion.

Sibayad is definitely an option. It's even removed from the 'mainland' of Arelith, so if things get too heated it wouldn't be too difficult to cut access to a dock/portal and make it feel far more remote.

Shadow Wharftown and Dis are great, but they're planar. I can't speak for everyone or know exactly what OP and others wanted, but I get the feeling that being on another plane is even more thematically limiting than being forced into the Underdark. I can think of a lot of types of evil character that would not want to tolerate the Shadow Plane or the Hells. Dis is perfect and my favourite 'city' but it's a bit out there to go hide in the literal hells for some characters that might just want to be normal mortals that are also evil.

If spreading hubs is the largest concern, then it makes me think of Guldorand again. It is already split into 2 hubs (Guldorand/Myon) that will always be opposed. Splitting the two could allow both to shine without creating any new hubs to split the playerbase.

A town popping up around the Banite keep, to me, sounds the most logical and organic.

This may sound unrelated to the thread, but I don't think it is. I think we just also have way too many modes of fast travel, especially portals. While very convenient especially when you're short on time, it makes the world feel small, but more importantly it makes conflict near constant and endless. It is so easy to just send speedies to anyone, a pocket wisp, a parrot, an illusion, and be like "Yo, tell the boys we got an animator in <place>." and everyone shows up, because they genuinely want to RP their goodly character. They don't mean to be a PvP hound, but it's just sort of how the server is set up with how quickly and easily we can all communicate and get around.

Maybe, even more so than having an evil settlement established, it would help the server culture and help evil flourish organically, if we just didn't have such effortless means of transportation and communication.

[Eyeliner]

The idea of a prison island for punishments has been brought up before, and I think that could be a good way to introduce an evil settlement as well. Sort of like an Escape From New York type of place with its own little community. Make it difficult to get in or out unless you're sentenced-- unless you're evil, then if you aren't a prisoner you can get in and out and using smugglers. Have tough guards who don't tolerate bands of paladins coming to kill their prisoners. Don't allow any portals or yoinks. Have all the basic amenities and some writs in the dungeons and tunnels below, so you can be evil and function there and the do-gooders are strongly encouraged to only infiltrate through subterfuge and not go on constant raids.

[Ruzuke]

I feel the basic push here is towards the C and D options - which is to say (as other people have pointed out) Mostly more acceptance of evil summons, and maybe monster races and such.

*If it is a full on 'Settlment' - voting and all that, then how do you keep it out of (please forgive the term) 'Team good's hands?

*If it's a settlment just in general terms, how do you prevent there being a lot of PvP in it - we already get this (understandable!) concern from Sencliff. Accusations that newbe pirates are murdered by 'Team good' on a regular basis, because they can come willy nilly. And this is from an island which is otherwise deemed very remote. A less remote area, one easier to reach, is going to deal with this problem even more.

My before bed suggestions is the following:

A) You are voting for a mayor. The ruler is in charge and has a large army. The ruler can oust the mayor at anytime and call another election. The mayor serves the ruler. (The background ruler is of course under control by the DM team) used to oust anyone that is team good).

B) It is treated like Dis/Shavador. PVP requires staff and if a PC does the PVP the NPC guards is expected to kill the person.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I feel the basic push here is towards the C and D options - which is to say (as other people have pointed out) Mostly more acceptance of evil summons, and maybe monster races and such.

In a way this is a good thing, because A and B of my options were pretty much already possible and didn't require any input Dm side.

The idea of a settlment where undead and the like are allowed is possible. It perhaps could be deemed a little odd -but absolutly possible in theory.

There are a few issues that come with this though, to consider.

*If it is a full on 'Settlment' - voting and all that, then how do you keep it out of (please forgive the term) 'Team good's hands?

*If it's a settlment just in general terms, how do you prevent there being a lot of PvP in it - we already get this (understandable!) concern from Sencliff. Accusations that newbe pirates are murdered by 'Team good' on a regular basis, because they can come willy nilly. And this is from an island which is otherwise deemed very remote. A less remote area, one easier to reach, is going to deal with this problem even more.

*If we have some sort of prevention for this, how to deal with the frustration that comes with it? Andunor almost straddles this line. It's remote, has the settlment rules protecting it to a degree, but most of all it has a very large incumbent group of PCs in it. It we compre to Sencliff, for example, it has at any one time probably five or ten times the amount of players there. So going all out to attack Andunor is generally considered a bit nuts. It has an amount of protection and whilst that makes sense, it already makes a bit of frustration from some people as their friends/allies/pet hamsters are captured, and cannot be 'saved.' As raiding groups come out of Andunor, attack, and then vanish again.

The concern then is we'd either get a Wharftown stiautin - with regular raiding groups hopping out, murdering people, and vanishing back into an impregnable fortress of a settlment...

Or if not a settlment, then the problems that come from having groups regularly 'attack' the place, killing those in it and making it relitivly undesirable to live in.

Add on to the fact that Irongron has spoken before (and I can't dissagree) that there's a danger of spreading out activity hubs too far.

If tomorrow Irongron wants to add a settlment like this, I won't complain, but I can't help but think it makes more sense to use some of the other areas (Sibiyad, Shadow wharftown, Dis, Skal to an extent) and/or work on... large aspects of player culture and pvp culture.

I'm sorry grumpy, but I can't help but think that you and I are reading two different threads. Maybe we are both victims of selective reading, but I see the vast majority of posts saying something that doesn't fit into any of the options you laid out. There is a huge difference between having a settlement that is a undead and monster free for all, both things being pretty silly, and having a settlement that is willing to turn a blind eye to someone using undead to kill orcs or whatever.

Thats something the five settlements, Cordor, Cordor lite in guldorand, Cordor with elves in myon, Cordor with Halflings in bendir, and Cordor with dwarves and gnomes in brogendenstein can't offer the vast majority of the time. And while it's true that the one concern you had that is legitimate and can't be answered with common sense exists in a fear of spreading too thin, I personally fall in the camp of it being worth it for some variety on the surface.

And finally, as for the idea of working on large aspects of player culture and pvp culture, great. But I have to ask, what's the plan to do that? Because in the 4 years or so since I was first bringing this up as being a budding problem thanks to the increased leveling speed, the plan has seemed to be to make a few random comments in threads and hope it gets better with closed eyes. And it's not working. Not even a little bit.

[Diegovog]

I'm all for Sencliff being this option. It just needs to be less raidable and have an easy way for anyone to leave. I'm sure the pirates would approve the increase of trade and recruitable crew. As long as there's major autonomy to the pirates and keep it as their identity.

[Kythana]

The problem I see with that is when people say surface evil, rarely is it that they mean gangs, seediness, extortion, corruption, blackmail, assassination, murder, snake oil, curses, smugglers.

They mean: "I want to use undead and fiends and have open monster buddies without anyone getting mad".

The primary reason people do this is because petty crime and low level evil is still grounds for the same punishment. I specifically recall a time when Cordor wrote up a list of 30 or so factions that were "confirmed evil" and posted them for all to read. You had neutral pirate gangs that didn't animate, nor tolerate monster being clumped in with groups that did.

Petty thieves will likely just get executed.

Many characters get forced into Andunor, because there's nowhere else for them to go. So at that point, why not just commit to it.

And finally, as for the idea of working on large aspects of player culture and pvp culture, great. But I have to ask, what's the plan to do that? Because in the 4 years or so since I was first bringing this up as being a budding problem thanks to the increased leveling speed, the plan has seemed to be to make a few random comments in threads and hope it gets better with closed eyes. And it's not working. Not even a little bit.

In about the two year period since I've come back, it's actually insane how many players I've seen partaking in gameplay exploits, hiding mechanically gainful information, constantly pvp and breaking associated rules, as well as using so much meta information for advantages.

Yes, every now and then someone gets banned, but it's such an awful, festering mindset now. I really would like to see some direct action being taken.

[Shadowy Reality]

It is mostly a server culture issue. Most people have a very violent reaction at anything remotely evil. I have played a couple of evil characters around Cordor's lower district and underworld and always found it very difficult to get anything meaningful going.

A few years back I played a gang with a friend (they were more like a comedic duo). We would try to rob people in the sewers as level 3, most people would rather fight to the death than engage in extortion and robbery. We once left a trail of gold coins from the Nomad to the sewers (back when the Nomad entrance was just some feet away from the sewer entrance) and then inside the sewers to a side room.

We just had a guard come in, we did try to rob him nonetheless and were met with a Word of Faith that killed us both instantly, we were then resurrected and told not to do it again.

And the moment it was known we were 'criminals' (they were particularly bad at it) we suddenly had a very increased scrutiny within Cordor, to the point where it was almost impossible to do anything.

This is not to say it's like this all the time, it is not. We also had wonderful interactions with that duo, one where we were hired by a cult to kidnap any individual (we later found out it was for a sacrifice), and unknown to us the guard was tailing us and barged in as we were delivering the poor PC to the cultist. The cultists escaped and our duo of idiots were hard pressed trying to explain it was just some casual kidnapping, they didn't know there were human sacrifices involved.

We were just petty criminals with bad jokes, no monstrous races, no evil summons and we were still often met with PvP encounters and us in the fugue. Ultimately gave up on them at level 5.

[Peacelily]

I'd not only like to see direct action, but more transparency when action is taken - not necessarily who was disciplined, but more along the recent lines we've seen of

• A reminder about capture, subdual, resurrection, etc...

These not only show the DM team is acting, but reinforce what they see as acceptable behavior; and what isn't acceptable.

That said, re Team Evil, expanding out one of the various planar hubs would be interesting. I've advocated for Dis getting an expansion to the front lines of the Blood War before, or the Shadovar having some actual play there beyond a hub, with quarters, a small enclave (the idea of a Prime Enclave in a Shadovar City amuses me massively). But part of the problem is the question; right now, Team Evil wants different things.

Arelith, as a whole, has settled to a very quiet version of the Realms. Compare it to the wildness of BG3, with whole swathes of tieflings, demons and devils quite common, and so on. Here, it's much more 'normal', and part of that plays into how fantastical we want Evil to be. Evil's big advantage, traditionally, has been easier access to fantastical support, demons, undead, and so on. They're simply happier to come to the Prime and funnel support to their chosen than the Good outsiders are.

While Arelith wants to restrict the world to a more mundane level, that really makes Grand Evil harder to justify.

[Kythana]

I'd not only like to see direct action, but more transparency when action is taken - not necessarily who was disciplined, but more along the recent lines we've seen of

• A reminder about capture, subdual, resurrection, etc...

These not only show the DM team is acting, but reinforce what they see as acceptable behavior; and what isn't acceptable.

This is done on a pretty frequent basis, with some sort of announcement post. No offense, but this is another one of those nonactions that isn't controversial to say, but really does nothing. The people who get reminded didn't need it, and the ones that do don't care.

We need actual harsh punishments for clearly defined rulebreaks and toxic behavior needs to happen. Permabans, removal of all awards, drop to 0 rpr, ect.

I have seen numerous players engage in toxic ooc behavior get banned, and then come back 4 months later, and do the same stuff again, and it is refused to be actioned upon until it reaches a boiling point - Again.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

You guys are derailing what was once a great thread, and I can't help but think in part it's my fault because I highlighted what grumpy said out of frustration about player culture. The server doesn't need to become more draconian with bans, ect., it needs clearer rules and less of a blank canvas all around, because the blank canvas is what leads to people just doing whatever they the players want instead of focusing on how characters would act in the setting. A degree of player autonomy is great, and one of areliths potential strengths, but if its total player autonomy the setting becomes a giant nothing and characters become less roles played and more avatars of their own desires.

I personally think that having a settlement with a evil npc backdrop is a step in the right direction, because it forces players to accept that evil exists in the world without beating them to death with words about it and hoping it sinks in. It's not the last thing I personally would do to try and shift the culture, but it does exemplify the way I would go about things if I were the one making the decisions here (thank goodness I'm not).

While it's true that I haven't played in almost a year out of frustration, and a large swath of people I enjoyed playing with are in the same position, it's not because the server isn't perfect. It's never going to be perfect with so many players having their own opinions of whats fun. But rather, its because nothing ever changes when these things come up every six months or so, and that leaves us feeling like if we play the right way and a portion of the playerbase is just doing it however they want we either join them or leave ourselves at a disadvantage.

That being said, I doubt the apocalyptic picture some of you are painting is accurate. I look around the forums and I still see plenty of good players who do it the right way posting. It just feels like those that could make serious changes want to leave it on the players to try and change the culture from within, which at this point can't work. Small but loud groups of people have been moving in the wrong direction for years now, and eventually something has to break.

Thats not to say that every idea to move in the right direction is correct, but when people poo poo ideas without any ideas of their own, nothing ends up happening.

[Kythana]

That being said, I doubt the apocalyptic picture some of you are painting is accurate. I look around the forums and I still see plenty of good players who do it the right way posting. It just feels like those that could make serious changes want to leave it on the players to try and change the culture from within, which at this point can't work. Small but loud groups of people have been moving in the wrong direction for years now, and eventually something has to break.

Thats not to say that every idea to move in the right direction is correct, but when people poo poo ideas without any ideas of their own, nothing ends up happening.

What do you expect players to do? As has been stated, there's no rule against just playing a character on the surface as evil, nor starting a faction, nor trying to rule a settlement. It's just that the majority of the time someone does that, it ends in a failure.

And sure, I'd love a surface evil settlement, but this has been talked about ad nauseam. If the leadership doesn't want to go in that direction, and no devs have an interest in creating it, then this really accomplishes nothing. Which is where the focus shifts to culture, since that has a much higher chance of actually being actioned against.

In an ideal world, we could use the existing locations like Sibayad, Freeport, Cordor sewers/slums/thieves hideout, ect to make pseudo settlements on the surface for exploring this. But obviously, this hasn't taken hold. And so I don't see why a surface evil settlement would be any different, without an overall change in attitude.

[Vespidae]

In the real world, and in most fantasy settings to be honest, being evil is beneficial. Being good is difficult and requires genuine drive. That's why heroes are heroes.

In Arelith, it's rewarding to be good and actually punishing to be evil. The most well-remembered characters are those who were able to do evil for a long time in a way that was rewarding for both themselves and those they evil'd at. It's a bit of an odd turnaround where the most famous OC are the most infamous IC.

I think ALL the surface settlements should be baseline evil. Except the Radiant Heart HQ. Make evil writs that are more profitable than good ones. Make being a hero mean something.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

That being said, I doubt the apocalyptic picture some of you are painting is accurate. I look around the forums and I still see plenty of good players who do it the right way posting. It just feels like those that could make serious changes want to leave it on the players to try and change the culture from within, which at this point can't work. Small but loud groups of people have been moving in the wrong direction for years now, and eventually something has to break.

Thats not to say that every idea to move in the right direction is correct, but when people poo poo ideas without any ideas of their own, nothing ends up happening.

What do you expect players to do? As has been stated, there's no rule against just playing a character on the surface as evil, nor starting a faction, nor trying to rule a settlement. It's just that the majority of the time someone does that, it ends in a failure.

And sure, I'd love a surface evil settlement, but this has been talked about ad nauseam. If the leadership doesn't want to go in that direction, and no devs have an interest in creating it, then this really accomplishes nothing. Which is where the focus shifts to culture, since that has a much higher chance of actually being actioned against.

In an ideal world, we could use the existing locations like Sibayad, Freeport, Cordor sewers/slums/thieves hideout, ect to make pseudo settlements on the surface for exploring this. But obviously, this hasn't taken hold. And so I don't see why a surface evil settlement would be any different, without an overall change in attitude.

I don't get why you directed the first question toward me.

I didn't realize that this was a topic that has been talked about ad nauseum, but when I first commented on this thread I certainly expected it to go nowhere. I was pleasantly surprised initially by the responses however.

As for the culture thing, again that sounds great. But you can't just wave a magic wand and expect the culture to change. Things need to happen. And no, I don't think a wave of bannings is the answer, because if you are banning people who aren't technically breaking the rules then more often than not the problem lies in the rules. Thats just common sense.

As for your last paragraph, Sibayad is best as a neutral spot. It's too important to the leveling process and frankly has some of the best dungeons on the server to be controlled by one group or another. Sencliff is pirates, pirates are bad m'kay. Trying to force a lawful ideal into that mix would be awful. I've long thought freeport would be a great spot for criminal activity, but the way the city is designed with myon attached no one will even dare. I know, I tried to get a group of bad guys to set up a criminal enterprise there and they were all like "Nope, that would just lead to endless pvp with Myon", which at the time no one wanted. And if I got what you mean right, the thieves hide out is essentially a guild house.

A settlement with an evil npc back drop is completely different than all of that, if done right. What does done right mean? Well, it could go a few ways, but here's some examples.

-Creating a purpose, why the island needs said settlement to survive.
-establishing anundor as an enemy to the city, in hopes that while when anundor's surface activity is quiet, they are probably considered the major threat of the island, but once anundor begins raiding again the common enemy unites everyone.
-Make it so neutral characters, both lawful and chaotic, would feel comfortable calling it home while ensuring that that prospect would make a good character's skin crawl.
-ect ect ect, I don't want to write a blueprint because whoever does this if it ever gets done (not holding my breath) should be able to delve into their imagination, and I don't want to hog all the good ideas.

Once you have it set up right, and make the city, you present the expected tone of the city. Preferably in game, but ooc is fine enough if its easier. The vast majority of players will follow suit, and those that don't will definitely stand out. And by following suit I don't mean subscribing to the ic nature of the city, people going against the grain there is what will drive conflict, but rather accepting it as part of the setting.

I don't want to call it easy, I know a lot of work would go into making this, but as far as the concept? Yeah, pretty easy.

[chris a gogo]

Adding a player run settlement that has an evil tag on it won't work, as it's not the real issue.

The issue is to much player agency over settlement laws.
Why should the laws change due to the latest popularity contest when the cities true npc rulers never change?
They shouldn't.
So with that in mind having developers/DM's or whomever set laws that define what where and when they have rights would be perfect.
Players need rules to make the game fun, but the rules have to be for everyone or you get disgruntled players that shout and complain because it just isn't fun to play.
So each settlement has a defined boarder where there laws apply beyond that any crime that is committed isn't a crime against the settlement so can not be punished by it, define a set of laws that make sense in the setting and then you can have a guard enforce them, you will have some real political rivalry evil groups that break no laws in the city (least don't get caught doing so) can establish themselves and can be a counter point to the "good" factions.
Hell you can even get neutral small groups winning due to them being the only acceptable candidates to all sides.

So off on abit of a tangent there but IMO I do believe that this is the real issue and a suggestion on how to fix it.

[chocolatelover]

I personally think Guldorand's Freeport could be the place for the slightly evil. There are a couple of hidden doors that really need to lead to a Thieve's Guild type place. And the one sewer entrance only leads to a dead end section... would be nice to add a Thieve's Guild entrance there.

Guldorand's Freeport is perfect. There is law, but not too much. The guards can go there, but then there is that pesky charter! Pirate tattoos? We may not like you, but we can't touch you. Selling canopic prisms? You guessed it.. the Charter says that it allowed. We don't like your business? Nope! Cannot evict you!

What is needed are super creative players who can be that edgy evil. We have already had a few. About a year ago, Adenious Craftlace opened up a Novelty Necromancer Shop. ON THE SURFACE!!! and there wasn't anything Guldorand could do about it. Sure there was tension and lawsuits, but that makes for fun stories. Siltrin ran a drug and poisons shop. Veras the pirate sauntered around with his wacky plans that the city had to clean up after. And now there is Ekrid who always keep one foot just on this side of the law and is always up to some scheme.

Necromancers and monsters will never be allowed on the surface, but really creative players could turn the Freeport into a complete headache for the Guldorand police.

[The GrumpyCat]

I was debating about whether to post anything reguarding the culture sitaution but in this case Babylon Systems for a Vampire actually put it perfectly.

As for the culture thing, again that sounds great. But you can't just wave a magic wand and expect the culture to change. Things need to happen. And no, I don't think a wave of bannings is the answer, because if you are banning people who aren't technically breaking the rules then more often than not the problem lies in the rules. Thats just common sense.

So yeah, maybe some of it can be fixed by us tightening up pvp rules? But that could lead to frustration in other areas. It's a really difficult balence honestly, because each has it's own perils.

[Richrd]

Arelith already has homes specifically for evil characters on the surface.

• The Minmir Congregation (if you are a Banite, since let's be real, nobody ever plays a LN Banite anyways)

• Sencliff (back when I still played Sencliff used to literally have Palemasters, Warlocks, monstrous races and other evil folks up the kazoo)

• Heck, even Shibayad is objectively evil with it's tolerance for all kinds of people (not monsters, people), the merchandizing of outright evil aligned items and gear plus the slave trade.

• EDIT: Forgot to mention Guldorand. You can be pretty heinous but under Guldorandi law as long as you do not cause trouble on their lands you can pretty much live life as an evil person there.

I think what you are asking for is a universal cartoon-villain levels of evil for a settlement. But I doubt that will ever happen again since the last settlement of that nature used to be Shibayad before monsters got outlawed there. And before that? Wharftown.

I would side with one of the very first responses saying that if you want an evil surface settlement you should work with others to just overtake one of the current settlements that isn't outright good-only, like the Radiant Heart for example.

Cordor for example used to be, back when I played, quite the evil hub for a little while. No monstrous races but there were warlocks, necromancers and other "evil classes" that were under the protection of the government back then, they hired assassins to target rivals and unwelcome elements and even had a little pact with forces from the Minmir Congregation and even the Underdark.

[IncorrigibleNev]

I feel the basic push here is towards the C and D options - which is to say (as other people have pointed out) Mostly more acceptance of evil summons, and maybe monster races and such.

In a way this is a good thing, because A and B of my options were pretty much already possible and didn't require any input Dm side.

The idea of a settlment where undead and the like are allowed is possible. It perhaps could be deemed a little odd -but absolutly possible in theory.

I lean more towards C, the Zhentarim make use of undead openly as well as dealing with beholders and dragons (mostly black dragons). And then there is also Thay to consider, which does every horrible thing under the sun and yet has its enclave system spreading throughout Faerun at the point in time Arelith exists within. I am in favor of the more overt evil having a seat at the table so to speak. The Zhents and Red Wizards are state actors and are treated as such diplomatically. Yes there is conflict, but at the end of the day for the most part just _existing as either of those two things in the majority of Faerun won't get you killed outright because there are organizations and nation states backing those people and that just creates trouble. Vigilante adventurers' (and Harper's and so on) taking justice into their own hands aside, of course, that's just part of the game/setting.

Whereas, with Andunor, it's very simple: Outcast? Dead. Monster? Dead. Dealings with Andunor? You're done. Andunor has no legitimacy, politically speaking. That mostly is by design due to how monsters are treated and I don't think it should change either, it is what it is. Ultimately, I just feel that evil is an inherent part of Faerun where sometimes you have to sit across from the table and deal with it. And Andunor is not that, you call pest control for Andunor.

Ultimately, I think with that idea of "legitimacy" in mind it is possible to head off a lot of the bad faith PvP concerns you brought up by making both sides understand it's not be run like a lawless raider state. As well as instituting something like the Guldorand Charter to head off """"team good"""" from derailing the whole thing. That's not to say other settlements wouldn't be interested in putting softer (or weaker) tyrants into power. Which just leaves room for conflict, both internal and external.

I don't have all the answers, ultimately, this how I feel about the state of overt (but "human") evil on the server and I could be wrong in my perceptions. I'd really just like something definitively evil but without the three district, shifting chaos of Andunor and it's monster baggage tbh.

[-XXX-]

IMO even if we had an overtly evil version of Cordor, it'd likely be empty most of the time.

Between Dis, Sencliff and Shadovar there's already enough places for evil characters to exist, gather or find NPC services.
Thing is, these are hubs that one would also expect to find PC interaction and RP in, but that doesn't really happen so much because of the established "condemnation for association" RP culture.
Even neutral and secretly evil characters often shy away from (non-hostile) interactions with other seedy characters out of fear of being framed as evil collaborators - this then frequently pushes the nature of conflicts further into MOBA territory.