Surface "Enslavement" needed

[LurkingShadow]

After the last few weeks, I again implore, there need to be "Prison work camps" or similar for good aligned factions to "enslave" The Underdark attackers. It is a one sided fight where they keep taking away surface characters that weakens the surface and it cannot be stopped. A lot of players, from my experience, simply accept it out of courtesy or simply put, some even been -forced- into it as their lovers or similar been taken and they been given the offer of "Take her place!" or not. Along with the new rather overpowered weaponry given upon the ships to both Sencliff and Andunor.

There need to be an equalizer.

[Paint]

The ways in which the surface and underdark do not mirror one another are what makes playing a character in either of them a choice worth considering at all.

Additionally, players have to consent to slave RP anyways, so all of those characters being taken away are being played by people who are:
-fine with it.
or
-wanted it to happen.

If they weren't, they wouldn't have agreed. If you feel like you've been unfairly pressured into slave RP, take it up with the DMs.

And with that being said, I liked the idea of a prison island being floated around in another thread anyways. So. You know, I guess I'm on team, 'sure, why not?' Prison camps could make for fun RP and scheming and plotting. Saying that out of context, of course, is real sketchy, but everything around slavery and adjacent topics is touchy.

[LurkingShadow]

The ways in which the surface and underdark do not mirror one another are what makes playing a character in either of them a choice worth considering at all.

Additionally, players have to consent to slave RP anyways, so all of those characters being taken away are being played by people who are:
-fine with it.
or
-wanted it to happen.

If they weren't, they wouldn't have agreed. If you feel like you've been unfairly pressured into slave RP, take it up with the DMs.

And with that being said, I liked the idea of a prison island being floated around in another thread anyways. So. You know, I guess I'm on team, 'sure, why not?' Prison camps could make for fun RP and scheming and plotting. Saying that out of context, of course, is real sketchy, but everything around slavery and adjacent topics is touchy.

I do not agree, I see it as a "gentleman rule" that many agree to slavery out of that. Just being suitable ICly. Or the scenario of "Kidnapped your girlfriend, become a slave or she will!" scenario has happended. How do you handle that? When third party effects it?

[Yma23]

The ways in which the surface and underdark do not mirror one another are what makes playing a character in either of them a choice worth considering at all.

Additionally, players have to consent to slave RP anyways, so all of those characters being taken away are being played by people who are:
-fine with it.
or
-wanted it to happen.

If they weren't, they wouldn't have agreed. If you feel like you've been unfairly pressured into slave RP, take it up with the DMs.

And with that being said, I liked the idea of a prison island being floated around in another thread anyways. So. You know, I guess I'm on team, 'sure, why not?' Prison camps could make for fun RP and scheming and plotting. Saying that out of context, of course, is real sketchy, but everything around slavery and adjacent topics is touchy.

I do not agree, I see it as a "gentleman rule" that many agree to slavery out of that. Just being suitable ICly. Or the scenario of "Kidnapped your girlfriend, become a slave or she will!" scenario has happended. How do you handle that? When third party effects it?

That's really not been my experience with it. Speaking personally at least, there's characters where I'd absolutly take the option, and charcters where - no matter what, I wouldn't. It really varies from concept to concept, and also from situaiton to situation. I think that's the case for a lot of players. I'd hope/expect the UDers understand that too.

But if you think that the entire reason for any slavery roleplay is this gentlemans agreement, why not simply roleplay it out? Emote putting a collar on the pc, ask them to rp as if they are a slave? Same thing right? I mean some folk argue that our current system would work just as well if purely done through rp (not sure I agree but...)

Anyway, I like the system well enough, and I've actually no objections to seeing it on the surface in theory, but I don't like the idea of it being added there 'to make things equel' - I think the issue is more complex than that.

[LurkingShadow]

The ways in which the surface and underdark do not mirror one another are what makes playing a character in either of them a choice worth considering at all.

Additionally, players have to consent to slave RP anyways, so all of those characters being taken away are being played by people who are:
-fine with it.
or
-wanted it to happen.

If they weren't, they wouldn't have agreed. If you feel like you've been unfairly pressured into slave RP, take it up with the DMs.

And with that being said, I liked the idea of a prison island being floated around in another thread anyways. So. You know, I guess I'm on team, 'sure, why not?' Prison camps could make for fun RP and scheming and plotting. Saying that out of context, of course, is real sketchy, but everything around slavery and adjacent topics is touchy.

I do not agree, I see it as a "gentleman rule" that many agree to slavery out of that. Just being suitable ICly. Or the scenario of "Kidnapped your girlfriend, become a slave or she will!" scenario has happended. How do you handle that? When third party effects it?

That's really not been my experience with it. Speaking personally at least, there's characters where I'd absolutly take the option, and charcters where - no matter what, I wouldn't. It really varies from concept to concept, and also from situaiton to situation. I think that's the case for a lot of players. I'd hope/expect the UDers understand that too.

But if you think that the entire reason for any slavery roleplay is this gentlemans agreement, why not simply roleplay it out? Emote putting a collar on the pc, ask them to rp as if they are a slave? Same thing right? I mean some folk argue that our current system would work just as well if purely done through rp (not sure I agree but...)

Anyway, I like the system well enough, and I've actually no objections to seeing it on the surface in theory, but I don't like the idea of it being added there 'to make things equel' - I think the issue is more complex than that.

I simply see it as a system to undermine the surface by taking people below to curse, collar or what not. When the system is barely there for doing much to the Underdark characters on the surface, This along with some very overpowered ships creates ain mechanical imbalance. Roleplay or not, the imbalance is there, You cannot deny this.

[For My Next Trick]

I do not agree, I see it as a "gentleman rule" that many agree to slavery out of that. Just being suitable ICly. Or the scenario of "Kidnapped your girlfriend, become a slave or she will!" scenario has happended. How do you handle that? When third party effects it?

That's really not been my experience with it. Speaking personally at least, there's characters where I'd absolutly take the option, and charcters where - no matter what, I wouldn't. It really varies from concept to concept, and also from situaiton to situation. I think that's the case for a lot of players. I'd hope/expect the UDers understand that too.

But if you think that the entire reason for any slavery roleplay is this gentlemans agreement, why not simply roleplay it out? Emote putting a collar on the pc, ask them to rp as if they are a slave? Same thing right? I mean some folk argue that our current system would work just as well if purely done through rp (not sure I agree but...)

Anyway, I like the system well enough, and I've actually no objections to seeing it on the surface in theory, but I don't like the idea of it being added there 'to make things equel' - I think the issue is more complex than that.

I simply see it as a system to undermine the surface by taking people below to curse, collar or what not. When the system is barely there for doing much to the Underdark characters on the surface, This along with some very overpowered ships creates ain mechanical imbalance. Roleplay or not, the imbalance is there, You cannot deny this.

So here's something really important to consider.

The sheer population of the Underdark, VS those who oppose the underdark, is absolutely hilarious.

Any time an Underdark raid is found out about, it's possible a group of 5-10 will end up facing off against 30-60.

It's not about mechanical balance. It's also about story and RP. So yeah. People are willing to go along with the RP, and that's great. Stigmatizing people for doing so, or suggesting there's some like, situation where the UD is stealing all the people on the surface below is kind of crazy. There's entire groups dedicated to freeing certain people who are captured, it's in their RP.

Figure out ways to deal with it ICly. If you had the ability to 'forcefully' remove players from the UD into prison work camps, the UD would be empty, and beyond that, would probably be constantly raided and unable to defend themselves. Which isn't fun RP for them, and makes it kind of boring above without real antagonists to consider/worry about.

Or just be evil and go to Sibayad and clamp them there. Just don't expect other civil people or cities to like you.

[LurkingShadow]

That's really not been my experience with it. Speaking personally at least, there's characters where I'd absolutly take the option, and charcters where - no matter what, I wouldn't. It really varies from concept to concept, and also from situaiton to situation. I think that's the case for a lot of players. I'd hope/expect the UDers understand that too.

But if you think that the entire reason for any slavery roleplay is this gentlemans agreement, why not simply roleplay it out? Emote putting a collar on the pc, ask them to rp as if they are a slave? Same thing right? I mean some folk argue that our current system would work just as well if purely done through rp (not sure I agree but...)

Anyway, I like the system well enough, and I've actually no objections to seeing it on the surface in theory, but I don't like the idea of it being added there 'to make things equel' - I think the issue is more complex than that.

I simply see it as a system to undermine the surface by taking people below to curse, collar or what not. When the system is barely there for doing much to the Underdark characters on the surface, This along with some very overpowered ships creates ain mechanical imbalance. Roleplay or not, the imbalance is there, You cannot deny this.

So here's something really important to consider.

The sheer population of the Underdark, VS those who oppose the underdark, is absolutely hilarious.

Any time an Underdark raid is found out about, it's possible a group of 5-10 will end up facing off against 30-60.

It's not about mechanical balance. It's also about story and RP. So yeah. People are willing to go along with the RP, and that's great. Stigmatizing people for doing so, or suggesting there's some like, situation where the UD is stealing all the people on the surface below is kind of crazy. There's entire groups dedicated to freeing certain people who are captured, it's in their RP.

Figure out ways to deal with it ICly. If you had the ability to 'forcefully' remove players from the UD into prison work camps, the UD would be empty, and beyond that, would probably be constantly raided and unable to defend themselves. Which isn't fun RP for them, and makes it kind of boring above without real antagonists to consider/worry about.

Or just be evil and go to Sibayad and clamp them there. Just don't expect other civil people or cities to like you.

In my opinion? Then the UD have to act carefully. Cause thats exactly how it is in the lore. The Underdark is far from unified and any settlement would be mushed if the surface went all in for it.

Figuring out ways to deal with it would be to implement proper punishments. Slavery is much more potent and creating of RP than puting someone in a jail for a little bit.

What would you accept?

"Be in jail for 3 months"
or
"Be a slave".

I think the option is one sided and imbalanced. And I do not really care if there is 60 surface players and 10 in a raid. Its a raid, and raids are not numerous. To me the issue is not complex at all and it is one sided in the favour of "evil doers" with ice cannons and slavery.

EDIT: And frankly, put, the surface is not as unified as you think nor is it personally "fun" if we gonna talk about that, to get in a situation where you're outnumbered out doing writs or harvesting resources or simply trying to get home. Then its not 10 vs 60 but 10 vs 1.

[LurkingShadow]

I will clarify, slavery is an roleplay maker. It is much more complicated to do so on the side of the surface. It is not only a way of punishing a losing side in PvP, but to create RP out of it. This is much more harder to do on the surface.

Besides my point at mechanical balance, I do believe there is a lack of roleplayin opportunities. This prison island could be one, if we for example only take fringe cases so not to de-populate the Underdark. But I really do hope there will be a implementation of something more than losing pvp, either you become enslave if you agree or you go home and lick your wounds if you said no or belong to a faction fighting non slave taking. I might sound crude here but I had a lot of frustrations concerning thes mechanics and I am truly sorry if im coming off as bitter.

[Kythana]

This issue with slavery? As has been stated, it's completely opt in. So even if you add a surface option equivalent, you're not necessarily guaranteed to see a similar response.

And frankly, I don't really see how this is a problem. If the UD wins a fight, takes some captures, and people choose to accept getting enslaved, like- Who cares? These ridiculous situations of threatening someone into slavery or else they'll harm another character is silly. You can make any number of reasons to get out of it.

I do not agree, I see it as a "gentleman rule" that many agree to slavery out of that. Just being suitable ICly. Or the scenario of "Kidnapped your girlfriend, become a slave or she will!" scenario has happended. How do you handle that? When third party effects it?

I don't care what other people think. I will never engage with getting enslaved. If that happens, you say, "The beast is lying, it will do anything to convince you." And then you move on.

If they try to pressure you oocly? Make a report.

An actual problem that was highlighted however is- The new op ships that also weren't announced, and just showed up overnight. Yes, these are ridiculous.

[LurkingShadow]

This issue with slavery? As has been stated, it's completely opt in. So even if you add a surface option equivalent, you're not necessarily guaranteed to see a similar response.

And frankly, I don't really see how this is a problem. If the UD wins a fight, takes some captures, and people choose to accept getting enslaved, like- Who cares? These ridiculous situations of threatening someone into slavery or else they'll harm another character is silly. You can make any number of reasons to get out of it.

I do not agree, I see it as a "gentleman rule" that many agree to slavery out of that. Just being suitable ICly. Or the scenario of "Kidnapped your girlfriend, become a slave or she will!" scenario has happended. How do you handle that? When third party effects it?

I don't care what other people think. I will never engage with the getting enslaved. If that happens, you say, "The beast is lying, it will do anything to convince you." And then you move on.

If they try to pressure you oocly? Make a report.

An actual problem that was highlighted however is- The new op ships that also weren't announced, and just showed up overnight. Yes, these are ridiculous.

Perhaps that one time I saw this happen to another PC has burnt into my mind and it is not so bad then? It just seemed to me to be a mechanic so easily abused and only one way.

The ships are a bit peculiar.

[DM Monkey]

Anything you can do with the slavery system could just as easily be roleplayed out without mechanics. You can do that anytime on the surface! There are also shackles, Sibayad slavery, etc.

[Naghast]

For context, i've recently seen a character that had a slave clamp, which marked them as a slave of, and i quote

Slavemaster of Sibayad

So i think the 2 are actually separate in some way and surface slavery can exist.

[Algol]

That'd be my character I think. They can't be bought at UD, so it's taking a bit to arrange things with the drow that'll be their owner. They were created as a slave in UD but events lead them being released to the slave master of sib.

[Hazard]

For context, i've recently seen a character that had a slave clamp, which marked them as a slave of, and i quote

Slavemaster of Sibayad

So i think the 2 are actually separate in some way and surface slavery can exist.

Huh!? Is that new??

[Ruzuke]

An actual problem that was highlighted however is- The new op ships that also weren't announced, and just showed up overnight. Yes, these are ridiculous.

My character learned about the ship upgrade. Went to tell others about the important weapon being worked on. The character was told to wait and nobody ever got back to him. He decided if they didn't care to know he did not care to wait for a long time and tell people.

[LurkingShadow]

Anything you can do with the slavery system could just as easily be roleplayed out without mechanics. You can do that anytime on the surface! There are also shackles, Sibayad slavery, etc.

Yes, but good "aligned" do not have a way to do this. There is no "recall button" like with a slave collar either.

[DM Monkey]

A character with a good alignment probably shouldn’t be too overly concerned with impeding the freedom of other characters in the first place. You’ve got shackles for temporary prisoners, cities and factions have cells for capture RP.

You can roleplay the rest pretty easily. Mechanics to force people to do what you want them to are already reliant on a certain level of consent from the other player. If your RP is interesting, they’ll go along with it.

[LurkingShadow]

A character with a good alignment probably shouldn’t be too overly concerned with impeding the freedom of other characters in the first place. You’ve got shackles for temporary prisoners, cities and factions have cells for capture RP.

You can roleplay the rest pretty easily. Mechanics to force people to do what you want them to are already reliant on a certain level of consent from the other player. If your RP is interesting, they’ll go along with it.

I do not agree with this, sadly. I also know after a reset, someone in a prison cell will spawn by the exit and not in the cell while a slave can be "forcefully called back".

Also, "good societies" also have laws and structure to stop malicious people. Otherwise said "good" society would barely exist. Modern democraries ome would say are "good" as good as it get currently, but we still lock up people breaking the law or put people coming into an society, commiting crimes in a jail.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'm not opposed to a prison system on the surface, but personally I would take it one step further. Everyone on the raiding side accepts that if they die, it's a permadeath.

Why?

Because I still believe in setting integrity, and a raid from the underdark on the surface is usually the result of months if not years of planning and large groups from teh dark working together (sometimes is just a really strong drow house) when it comes to the forgotten realms. A raid on arelith is usually the result of having a strong group of 5-10 mechanically skilled players ready and willing, taking a portal over, and win lose or draw you get to do it again in a few days when that group is together again and bored.

That's a pretty serious disconnect from one to the other, and I personally think that anything that slows raids down and makes it more of a character end game thing rather than what that character does after leveling up for a few weeks until they get bored with it is a good thing.

I know, that's crazy talk.

[LurkingShadow]

I'm not opposed to a prison system on the surface, but personally I would take it one step further. Everyone on the raiding side accepts that if they die, it's a permadeath.

Why?

Because I still believe in setting integrity, and a raid from the underdark on the surface is usually the result of months if not years of planning and large groups from teh dark working together (sometimes is just a really strong drow house) when it comes to the forgotten realms. A raid on arelith is usually the result of having a strong group of 5-10 mechanically skilled players ready and willing, taking a portal over, and win lose or draw you get to do it again in a few days when that group is together again and bored.

That's a pretty serious disconnect from one to the other, and I personally think that anything that slows raids down and makes it more of a character end game thing rather than what that character does after leveling up for a few weeks until they get bored with it is a good thing.

I know, that's crazy talk.

Interesting concept but hard to implement and get people to agree to. Raids up and below will be much more gruesome and hard to arrange.

[RibsAndBrisket]

I will say this and only this.

Anyone who claims the UD/"Evil surface" has the upper hand obviously never attempted a surface raid as a UD character.

Give yourself 20 minutes on the surface and suddenly, 20-30-40-50 max'd out toons you have not seen in months or years all login in at the same time and utterly crush and destroy your 4-5-6 people party in about 10 minutes.

The settlements are doing just fine.

[LurkingShadow]

I will say this and only this.

Anyone who claims the UD/"Evil surface" has the upper hand obviously never attempted a surface raid as a UD character.

Give yourself 20 minutes on the surface and suddenly, 20-30-40-50 max'd out toons you have not seen in months or years all login in at the same time and utterly crush and destroy your 4-5-6 people party in about 10 minutes.

The settlements are doing just fine.

Never seen it happen.

What I seen is people being taken away from Surface RP by enslavement. Or even perma killed. That you can raid a settlement infront of the royal elite guard NPCs, just eyeing these events unfolding is a severe break of immersion and a feeling of being protected in a home, becasue less than 7 people wrote in DM channel "Raiding X" and it just happens. Potentially beating someone up inside a settlement barrack filled with the cities finest military men and women.

[RibsAndBrisket]

This would not even be an issue if people were not hyper focusing on 'Winning'.

There is little need for balancing in a game you are not supposed to win at in the traditional gaming sense of the word. The surface and the settlement always have been overpowered and that's fine. #RememberWharfTown

Go raid the UD and have them clamped in Sibayad. What's stopping you?

[Beary Nice]

I'm not opposed to a prison system on the surface, but personally I would take it one step further. Everyone on the raiding side accepts that if they die, it's a permadeath.

Why?

Because I still believe in setting integrity, and a raid from the underdark on the surface is usually the result of months if not years of planning and large groups from teh dark working together (sometimes is just a really strong drow house) when it comes to the forgotten realms. A raid on arelith is usually the result of having a strong group of 5-10 mechanically skilled players ready and willing, taking a portal over, and win lose or draw you get to do it again in a few days when that group is together again and bored.

That's a pretty serious disconnect from one to the other, and I personally think that anything that slows raids down and makes it more of a character end game thing rather than what that character does after leveling up for a few weeks until they get bored with it is a good thing.

I know, that's crazy talk.

Interesting concept but hard to implement and get people to agree to. Raids up and below will be much more gruesome and hard to arrange.

I think that's the point? I'm in agreement wholly with Babylon, mind you. It would add a lot of weight and make people consider if it's worth it or not.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

I do not agree with this, sadly. I also know after a reset, someone in a prison cell will spawn by the exit and not in the cell while a slave can be "forcefully called back".

that shouldn't be happening, locations are saved on log out and reset does a mass log out as part of its process