Sailing requirements are too much

[In Sorrow We Trust]

or strength...

heave, ho...

[LivelyParticle]

Or INT, work smarter, not harder.

This would of course mean entire gear sets would need to be re-made. I do like the thought of dex or wis or str!

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I like the idea of needing some of each. Either/Or (or, or, or) not as much, but I get why the idea is popular.

[Diegovog]

It's tiring to read people who want to be the best in something without a character commitment to it. It's a symptom of people who want their characters to be good at everything. And it's not even that hard to reach 100 sailing if you invest the feats in it. I'd advocate to make the feat investment even harsher.

I'm happy about the current sailing system. In order to be one of the best sailors you should build to be a SAILOR. Not a pvp meta build that happens to have extra skills and with gear becomes the next sailing god. And if you wanna do sailing and be a god in pvp, you can still be a boarder if you find a welcoming crew for you.

The only punishing part of the current system is the +6sailing gift you get from character creation. There's noway of getting it once your character is made.

I would love for Arelith to have more similar systems in which characters are build to be really good in a very specific niche of the most varied themes. Whole burglary systems, racing, building and whatnot. Things for people to choose, invest and specialize heavily into.

Edit: (would be interesting to have a swashbuckler path focused in sailing)
Edit2: Regarding other possible similar systems, a merchant system with new feats for people to heavily lean into being merchants in town. Getting reduced taxes if invested in certain feats, access to prime-location shops, access to abilities that allow them to understand languages like the warlock one, bonus to appraise, etc.

[-XXX-]

The sailing gift is a soft bonus and kind of redundant most of the time.
I wouldn't call missing it punishing.
Which is fine...

...but...

This also somewhat exemplifies my personal pet peeve with how soft bonuses work ATM:
i.e. Sea Shanties too good / other soft bonuses too weak

One must stack literally every soft bonus in the book to reach the +50 soft skill cap without sea shanties:
+30 (gear incl. epic sail pieces) +12 (greater ritual) +6 (gift) +2 (good hope) = 50

Sea Shanties skyrocket the sail score of the entire crew toward the cap making most of the other soft bonuses pointless (or rather they work best individually as a sea shanties supplement):
Epic gear + sea shanties = 50
Basic gear + greater ritual + sea shanties = 54
Basic gear + gift + good hope + sea shanties = 50
Basic gear + lesser ritual + good hope + sea shanties = 51

[TheDoctor]

The sailing gift is a soft bonus and kind of redundant most of the time.
I wouldn't call missing it punishing.

Indeed... I dont have that gift on my sailor. I can still hit over 100 without it and I am not even built for sailing...

Oh wait.. I am not built for sailing and can still top over 100? (Sure thats with a nice bard and maybe a cleric ritual but even without that my guy hits plenty of Sail score to handle the content)

Also whoever said you simply cant repair without a carpenter or tailor... Yes you can.. You need to pay for it though and you have to go to port. Is that the same thing, not even close.. Is it repairs... Yes. Oh nooooo.. Now you hafta go actually RP with someone now and you cant solo grind.. Oh nooooo.

[TheDoctor]

I feel this is the number that should be balanced around, NOT the maximum 100. Something around ₈₀ average or so would account for a bard, ESFs etc. as far as bonuses go, and it is also very attainable without going to extreme means.

If the number is lower, then the bonuses from blessings, skill focus feats, having a bard, having good gear etc. actually become MORE meaningful, not less, because these are things that make you valuable to a crew because you bring the average up from just the baseline. They're things that make you "a great sailor" rather than just "a sailor." Overall I feel the required average sail should be looked at and discussed; lowering it would make it easier to include more people, and in an organic sort of way.

Honestly you are right about one thing... The required avg sail score SHOULD be looked at... AND RAISED!

[perseid]

Maybe I'm just part of the problem since I see sailing as too much work and commitment for too little payoff anymore, but imo the people who are saying that sailing is fine are in denial about the state of sailing. If sailing was fun and rewarding in the real way we wouldn't be having constant threads from people either having trouble finding groups to sail with or from groups having trouble finding sailors who can tackle the high-end content effectively. There would just be an actually lively sailing population.

[Diegovog]

Maybe I'm just part of the problem since I see sailing as too much work and commitment for too little payoff anymore, but imo the people who are saying that sailing is fine are in denial about the state of sailing. If sailing was fun and rewarding in the real way we wouldn't be having constant threads from people either having trouble finding groups to sail with or from groups having trouble finding sailors who can tackle the high-end content effectively. There would just be an actually lively sailing population.

That's because pirate chests are quite hard to get. And when you do get one, there's a chance it's complete trash. And if there's good loot inside, you still have to share/roll with the rest of the entire crew. So yeah, it's a huge time commitment to get those chests and you have to trust people with high search looking for the map pieces, there's RNG involved and all in all, if you're not an optimized group with knowledgeable people in the group, you're not going to have the rare loot.

I'm aware of those problems, but I still don't have an opinion if they should be easier. They could lose value if they are too easy.

In general, my advice is that if you want to sail, do it for the RP, not for the reward.
If you want reward, do dungeons instead.

[-XXX-]

Pirate chests are fine and an optimized crew can easily put together 2-3 maps over the course of a single sail.

Thing is... that's usually 4-6 toons doing ALL the work and whenever word about a successful ongoing sail gets out, messengers start flying and the crew swiftly snowballs out of proportion.

When that happens you have two options:

• bring people along and end up splitting those 3 chests between 12+ people (and most likely walk away with maybe one adamantine ingot after 4-5 hours of gameplay during which your toon did ALL the work)
• keep landlubbers out - which goes completely against the inclusive nature of an RP server and gives grounds for complaints such as this thread

[Mamma ama Warlock]

I've never tried sailing before, and I don't want to do it cuz from the outside perspective it feels like anything I'd like to do will be compromised due to making significant feat investment or very heavily tailoring my build to enable this content for me. I don't want to be the best, but I also don't want to be a burden on people who live and die by optimal sailing.

Core gameplay features should not be gated, period. 100% optimal performance should be. If I knew I wouldn't be a burden on the active crews with basic requirements that are reasonable for anyone who's willing to put in the effort, I'd give it a try.

The change can be started from: "Come sail with us, it's fun, here's what you need: ..." instead of "you need X, Y, Z to be good, now gut your build". Perception issue? 100%. But it matters.

[TheDoctor]

I've never tried sailing before, and I don't want to do it cuz from the outside perspective it feels like anything I'd like to do will be compromised due to making significant feat investment or very heavily tailoring my build to enable this content for me. I don't want to be the best, but I also don't want to be a burden on people who live and die by optimal sailing.

Core gameplay features should not be gated, period. 100% optimal performance should be. If I knew I wouldn't be a burden on the active crews with basic requirements that are reasonable for anyone who's willing to put in the effort, I'd give it a try.

The change can be started from: "Come sail with us, it's fun, here's what you need: ..." instead of "you need X, Y, Z to be good, now gut your build". Perception issue? 100%. But it matters.

Seems to me that you have perhaps been around the wrong people then. If someone is telling you anything other than "Come sail with us, it's fun, here's what you need: ..." then they are the ones in the wrong. ESPECIALLY someone who doesnt know the system. I would be more than happy to take you sailing. I take people with no sail score out and we have a blast. You do NOT need to be some kinda uber sailor build to go sailing. Whoever has been pumping that into peoples heads is simply a fool. This is completely a matter of a good captain vs a bad one.

Before someone says.. But pvp... Yes... we know pvp... Comes back to good captains vs bad ones... A good captain will make sure they have a well balanced crew. And lets not forget.. Heavy sail score means bad at pvp so, even more reason for one or two people on the ship to know how to fight better than they can sail.

Havin people that are not sailors with that heavy investment to the sail score is important! A good Captain knows that and will even have a bit of gear for those people or make it right there on the spot for them.

[Biolab00]

Arelith has always been an RP server first and foremost.
And it's especially prevalent on sailing.
I believe that a good start is to actually enjoy Ship PVE regardless of what Ship it was or what Mast(One to Four) it was.
Ship PVE has a lot of roleplay potential and it can be long term, which generates a certain habit or rather the charm of the sailor.
It really creates the right atmosphere for all the crewsmate on the ship to bring them into the Ship RP and nothing brings more fun than that.

I've always been playing a sailor ever since returning to Arelith because this is the only content that I'm having fun. Tiring? sure but yes, it is fun. Over the course of the years of playing a sailor, crewsmate or captain, I've come to really realise that if you start to get tired of Ship PVE or simply someday, decide to shutdown the RP potential of Ship PVE due to growing numb of it, it's a good indicator that you have to rest, recover and do it again.
If you center your sailing around Ship PVP, it's lifespan is akin to a firefly.

So...the thing is, if the crew that you're having keeps enjoying this fun, they will actually made the effort to become a good sailor themselves. I've met many of these players over the course of my different sailors PC and all of them, brought a smile to my heart.
It's really a good feeling that through IC Roleplay, a player that may have ongoing story on Land RP, decides to also invest time into Ship RP. Nothing esle come even close as rewarding as this and you will know that these players, the crewmates, will be your best mates on the Ship. Of course, there're some that accompanies and accompanies on many voyages and suddenly, all fell into pieces and we become a crew.

The core of sailing, has always been as simple as the beginning step, and that is, to have fun.

[TheDoctor]

Arelith has always been an RP server first and foremost.
And it's especially prevalent on sailing.
I believe that a good start is to actually enjoy Ship PVE regardless of what Ship it was or what Mast(One to Four) it was.
Ship PVE has a lot of roleplay potential and it can be long term, which generates a certain habit or rather the charm of the sailor.
It really creates the right atmosphere for all the crewsmate on the ship to bring them into the Ship RP and nothing brings more fun than that.

I've always been playing a sailor ever since returning to Arelith because this is the only content that I'm having fun. Tiring? sure but yes, it is fun. Over the course of the years of playing a sailor, crewsmate or captain, I've come to really realise that if you start to get tired of Ship PVE or simply someday, decide to shutdown the RP potential of Ship PVE due to growing numb of it, it's a good indicator that you have to rest, recover and do it again.
If you center your sailing around Ship PVP, it's lifespan is akin to a firefly.

So...the thing is, if the crew that you're having keeps enjoying this fun, they will actually made the effort to become a good sailor themselves. I've met many of these players over the course of my different sailors PC and all of them, brought a smile to my heart.
It's really a good feeling that through IC Roleplay, a player that may have ongoing story on Land RP, decides to also invest time into Ship RP. Nothing esle come even close as rewarding as this and you will know that these players, the crewmates, will be your best mates on the Ship. Of course, there're some that accompanies and accompanies on many voyages and suddenly, all fell into pieces and we become a crew.

The core of sailing, has always been as simple as the beginning step, and that is, to have fun.

This is the best post. I mean you really hit every point you are making on the head. We have Sooooooo much fun every time we go out. I wont say this is how every crew runs though. I have been on some trips that felt so dry it hurt. (Thats from the lack of good RP on the players part though and not to do with the sailing system)

I will also put this out there again. Anyone who wants to try a go at sailing. If you have been turned off to it in the past for reasons in this thread or otherwise, do not hesitate to reach out. If you dont know the system we can IC'ly teach you. If you dont have gear we can IC'ly help you. (Will prolly end up puttin up some signage around the island.. Learn ta sail, see tha realms or some such).