Summon Adjustments

[Anomandaris]

Give all summons nice DR and decent AC. Then strip the damage right back so that is HAS to come from the caster. It's almost TOO simple...

This may work for PvE, but in balancing the class around PvP is effectively worthless. The only reason Summons have any value in PvP is by applying pressure, which comes from damage. Guard only works in PvE so defensive stats are functionally irrelevant in a PvP context, as the player character will simply ignore the summon and kill the summoner.

[Draco]

Why don't we allow summons to be more tanky again and greatly reduce the amount of damage they're doing? They can still get the job done, but at a much slower pace, forcing the caster to play a more active role in PvE.

[Kythana]

Give all summons nice DR and decent AC. Then strip the damage right back so that is HAS to come from the caster. It's almost TOO simple...

This may work for PvE, but in balancing the class around PvP is effectively worthless. The only reason Summons have any value in PvP is by applying pressure, which comes from damage. Guard only works in PvE so defensive stats are functionally irrelevant in a PvP context, as the player character will simply ignore the summon and kill the summoner.

This is fine if summoners have access to things like gate, where you can consistently pump out low duration high pressure devas/balors. I can't imagine anyone was ever using summon monster for pvp anyways. ...And gate was also nerfed, lol.

Maybe just split summons as a whole into some type of defense/offense variant with appropriate durations for each.

[Mamma ama Warlock]

A possible solution to retain the flexibility of a wizard spell book while increasing the spell slot longevity:

Current number of spell slots for each level gets converted into the number of spells that can be cast on a certain level.

Run a query on an average number of unique spells used on each level by wizards to get an idea of how many unique spells would be reasonable to have on every appropriate level.

Reduce the number of spells you can slot on each level to equate to what’s the average number of unique spells is.

When a spell is cast on a certain level, it consumes a charge of a given level, replenishing the slotted spell. Slotted spells get refreshed every X/period of time to prevent loss and unnecessary rests (or not, to prevent abuse of changing prepared spells mid flight). If the changes go through with the monk as they are, non-enchanter wizards can dip monk for unlimited rests, which will at a cost increase the number of spells a wizard can cast per a dungeon run with 30CL against dispels.

Felt that it might be something to bring up, as it’s been mentioned before that a wizard might run out of steam a little too quickly. Same numbers as now, just a different approach to how they are handled, more akin to newer editions.

[Naghast]

Doesn't that just make them spontaneous casters though?

[ReverentBlade]

Give all summons nice DR and decent AC. Then strip the damage right back so that is HAS to come from the caster. It's almost TOO simple...

This is the way...

...but the caster has to actually be able to do that damage over a long period of time.

You would also need a more balanced PvP option to go with it, but having separate summoning spells for PvE and PvP is fine and what we have to deal with already.

[Mamma ama Warlock]

Doesn't that just make them spontaneous casters though?

No, you change your prepared spells on a rest, instead of once per level. It’s pretty much for 5e does with all prepared spellcasters.

[AstralUniverse]

Give all summons nice DR and decent AC. Then strip the damage right back so that is HAS to come from the caster. It's almost TOO simple...

...aaand 4th encounter into the dungeon the caster is out of spells - what now?

You cant eat the cake and have it whole. Summons should not be a replacement to actual party members. Also you can utilize henchmen along with summons. Also, if the summon is tanky and doesnt die, you dont have to run out of spells by the 4th or 8th encounter, you just need to accept that if you're not bringing party you will clear much much slower, and you can still help it with spellbounds and cantrips and arcane flux. The idea is that casters arent locked out of content that melees can solo (because the summon is tanky enough), but also that the summon isnt itself a busted weaponmaster tier melee too (because then we get nerfs like this). I greatly support this design philosophy and I think it suits Arelith and encourages partying with others because the caster benefits from having more swords clearing, and the melee character benefits from the caster's tank summon.

[Shadowy Reality]

You cant eat the cake and have it whole. Summons should not be a replacement to actual party members. Also you can utilize henchmen along with summons. Also, if the summon is tanky and doesnt die, you dont have to run out of spells by the 4th or 8th encounter, you just need to accept that if you're not bringing party you will clear much much slower, and you can still help it with spellbounds and cantrips and arcane flux. The idea is that casters arent locked out of content that melees can solo (because the summon is tanky enough), but also that the summon isnt itself a busted weaponmaster tier melee too (because then we get nerfs like this). I greatly support this design philosophy and I think it suits Arelith and encourages partying with others because the caster benefits from having more swords clearing, and the melee character benefits from the caster's tank summon.

This sounds a bit off. You could argue this exact same thing if Irongron decided to remove magic consumables from the server and now mundane melees cannot buff themselves in any way shape or form.

You could still clear content but much slower than before, to incentivise you to bring casters along.

The issue at hand is that casters are struggling to clear content, period.
I played a sorcerer ages ago, when summons were indeed vanilla, the leveling method solo would be to go to the Frozen Wastes where three bosses were very close together and spend all your spells on those three bosses, for around 1k exp and that was it. You had to go rest, it wasn't amazing.

[MartialHag]

Agreeing with some people here, Summon Creature I-IX should be a tanky meat shield with little to no damage that takes the Heat away from the Caster. For PvP we already only use Gate/PC anyways so that could be a pretty good distinction between PvE and PvP Summons.
Personally been Leveling a Wiz since just after the changes and Lv 1-12 work just fine with the reverted Summons. You need a Sequencer and some Healing Supplies but it works.

[Wethrinea]

I have mostly played melee types and, at times, felt somewhat superfluous when a caster brings out the big dawgs from the astral kennel. I recently tried my hands on a caster shaman that relies on summons to provide cover for his archery, and I agree that before the nerf, summons were too powerful.

But the nerf hammer hit a bit too hard. For casters, as many have pointed out, summons are essential to handle PvE content. It is simply not feasible to play a caster solo without them, unless you are a warlock/spellsword or have some other way to combine high defence and a pool of offensive spells/abilities that do not run dry. Divine casters (aside from druids) usually have none of those.

Zen caster archers will have their niche, but a dip in monk or vigilante for AC is now mandatory when your summons can no longer be relied on to provide cover.Teaming up with a martial character or nabbing a pair of henchmen is a way to mitigate the problem, naturally, but they may be in short supply or unavailable when you need them.

In conclusion, I don't mind at all that summons are nerfed, but I think this went a little too far. And summons should absolutely be brought in line with each other, so that one feat (DC) does not outshine every other epic summon. A three feat investment in spell focuses should be rewarded.

[Jencent]

Give all summons nice DR and decent AC. Then strip the damage right back so that is HAS to come from the caster. It's almost TOO simple...

Undead summons arleady have that.

[Kalthariam]

Yeah.

Undead summons also still get the benefits of having all their support spells available to the summoned creatures, through spells like stone bones and Negative Energy Burst. Must be nice to not only not get nerfed but also get to keep all your tools to buff your own minions unlike everyone else.

However you know, the problem with undead is. They are undead. Which is only an option for Evil Necromancers.

[deadmau5 concert]

Just keep sequencers and also let us cast on our summons.

[Jencent]

Yeah.

Undead summons also still get the benefits of having all their support spells available to the summoned creatures, through spells like stone bones and Negative Energy Burst. Must be nice to not only not get nerfed but also get to keep all your tools to buff your own minions unlike everyone else.

However you know, the problem with undead is. They are undead. Which is only an option for Evil Necromancers.

Welp. If stone bones will not work on summons... What a reason to ahve this spell at all?

And also. IMHO... Evil summons, skill, classes supposed to be a bit stronger, coz you are paing for it on surface... Welp. Locks still takes free stuff without penalty, but... What a reason to use FORBIDDEN spells and other stuff if this is not more powerful?

[Hazard]

Just keep sequencers and also let us cast on our summons.

Unironically, this. Please.
The sequencers themselves are fine, if we detach them from the fact that they came with the inability to cast our own spells propely.

Or we can keep doubling down and pretending everything is fine.

[RedGiant]

Just keep sequencers and also let us cast on our summons.

Unironically, this. Please.
The sequencers themselves are fine, if we detach them from the fact that they came with the inability to cast our own spells propely.

Or we can keep doubling down and pretending everything is fine.

Concur ++

Just a quick story on the state of Elemental Swarm: my epic, conjuration-focused, transmutation-focused, Aura of Vitality using Druid, as good as summoner as you can possibly be at level, just lost a Swarm to the Ra'val of Rider's Peak. They are middling-level content, which isn't even that tough. And this is the scenery-chewer. God help the wizards.

[Hazard]

Does this mean warlock is the only class able to cast haste on their own summons, now?

[Naghast]

No, warlocks have the same haste situation as everyone else now.
Regarding haste on summons that is.

[Jencent]

Welp. Now my wiz are stuck with leveling. Coz now summons not able to tank even few rounds for me and im mostly playing not at prime time of the server. So ATM this PC just stuck at his lvl.

[Hazard]

No, warlocks have the same haste situation as everyone else now.
Regarding haste on summons that is.

Oh, alright. Thanks.

[AstralUniverse]

You cant eat the cake and have it whole. Summons should not be a replacement to actual party members. Also you can utilize henchmen along with summons. Also, if the summon is tanky and doesnt die, you dont have to run out of spells by the 4th or 8th encounter, you just need to accept that if you're not bringing party you will clear much much slower, and you can still help it with spellbounds and cantrips and arcane flux. The idea is that casters arent locked out of content that melees can solo (because the summon is tanky enough), but also that the summon isnt itself a busted weaponmaster tier melee too (because then we get nerfs like this). I greatly support this design philosophy and I think it suits Arelith and encourages partying with others because the caster benefits from having more swords clearing, and the melee character benefits from the caster's tank summon.

This sounds a bit off. You could argue this exact same thing if Irongron decided to remove magic consumables from the server and now mundane melees cannot buff themselves in any way shape or form.

You could still clear content but much slower than before, to incentivise you to bring casters along.

The issue at hand is that casters are struggling to clear content, period.
I played a sorcerer ages ago, when summons were indeed vanilla, the leveling method solo would be to go to the Frozen Wastes where three bosses were very close together and spend all your spells on those three bosses, for around 1k exp and that was it. You had to go rest, it wasn't amazing.

It's really not the same thing. If mundies lost all consumables, for example, they wouldnt tank the content that they can tank now, and they would die, and they then would be forced to bring party. That's not the case in what I propose, since the summon is supposed to be tanky enough for any content that a spellsword or a fighter can tank through.

Also why are we talking about playing a mage 15 years ago in the dark spires old boss-trio... how is that relevant to anything at all..

[And Spring Became the Summer]

Baby cleric and baby wizard joined forces to do low level writs. We were literally on one of the first three writs available to new characters. Here's what happened:

Wizard had GSF and thus had access to the SC3 summoned Wolf; cleric had summoned Boar.
Engage one group of mobs, so that's 2-4 mobs at a time.
Boar died, repeatedly.
Wolf would get to very low HP. Died several times.
Cleric, who was also using melee, had to spam infinicast Cure Minor after every. single. encounter.
Wizard was using Daze in an attempt to control; mob saves are high enough to where that only worked some of the time.
Hey, we have sequencers! Put both an arcane and a divine on the - oh, they don't stack anymore?? Well, this divine sequencer is worthless. And even with an arcane sequencer, the wolf could not hold up even to single encounters without losing massive hp.

Baby cleric and baby wizard have good builds, gear, and gameplay knowledge. And still the entire thing was a frustrating slog where infinicast Cure Minor was the real MVP. However, forcing the cleric to spend five minutes healing up near-dead summons 4 hp at a time after every small mob engagement isn't fun! Something's got to give.

[Hazard]

mundies

I just really like this word.
Arelith muggles are mundies now.

[MartialHag]

Baby cleric and baby wizard joined forces to do low level writs. We were literally on one of the first three writs available to new characters. Here's what happened:

Wizard had GSF and thus had access to the SC3 summoned Wolf; cleric had summoned Boar.
Engage one group of mobs, so that's 2-4 mobs at a time.
Boar died, repeatedly.
Wolf would get to very low HP. Died several times.
Cleric, who was also using melee, had to spam infinicast Cure Minor after every. single. encounter.
Wizard was using Daze in an attempt to control; mob saves are high enough to where that only worked some of the time.
Hey, we have sequencers! Put both an arcane and a divine on the - oh, they don't stack anymore?? Well, this divine sequencer is worthless. And even with an arcane sequencer, the wolf could not hold up even to single encounters without losing massive hp.

Baby cleric and baby wizard have good builds, gear, and gameplay knowledge. And still the entire thing was a frustrating slog where infinicast Cure Minor was the real MVP. However, forcing the cleric to spend five minutes healing up near-dead summons 4 hp at a time after every small mob engagement isn't fun! Something's got to give.

Started a Wiz aswell after the Nerfs, WITHOUT SF Conj and did just fine. Sequencer on top and Daze spam worked like a Charm. Only time I had a bit of a rougher time was recently at the Blood Moons with the AB growing a bit steep for the 31 Tiger AC (once again, no Gsf hence could be 33AC) and only even then only at the Bosses due to high Number of Enemy spawns. So Surface works fine, UD could be trickier due to the amount of early Psychic immune enemies. One can drag Potions onto the Summons and get no AoO, also took Quicken at 5 to spam Cantrips faster aswell as build Flux. This is as Shadow Mage btw so Evo Spells suck for me.

Is the clear speed compared to many other Classes slow? Yes. Is it still doable to Solo as Wiz? Yes, just takes a bit more planning at times and exploiting of low Saves. Personally am slotting Spells I never did before and am actually starting to figure out some Wiz tactics.

This is my low Level experience though, depending on how little the ACs of Summons continue to go up with the Tiers this might change in the 15-20 bracket.