Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

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Nazmina
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Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by Nazmina » Fri Mar 22, 2024 4:06 pm

Changes listed here viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&p=336214#p336214

Overall I like the general thrust of the changes but think some of them have some issues with the way arelith works.

First up if the intention is to drink in a tavern then head out to battle the 1.5 hour duration might not be long enough. The travel time and length of several dungeons especially epic ones can be as long or longer than 1.5 hours even if you rush and never stop to RP or take a break. Which means it will wear off usually in the final room. Lower level character who might do 2-3 dungeons before running to town might also see the buff run out. I think changing the tavern duration to 2 hours (or 3 if you are feeling generous) would allow people to drink and take their time in dungeons RP etc.

As for the drinks:

Ripplebark Beer: bit of a odd one, there aren't many dieases on arelith and in their current implementation you can just wait for combat to be over then use a heal kit even with no skill to remove it before you suffer any effects so this one would be mostly QoL.
EXCEPT, several of the new curses are blocked by disease immunity which this would grant for 30min (fresh) and 1.5 hours if tavern which seems like a bit much.

Yarrow bear: Solid drink, can see pretty much everyone who can craft or find someone to craft to use it, 1 regen for such a long time will make low level dungeons much smoother with less down time and will even find use in high level dungeons. Can see this being the default drink for pve unless you need something else for a specific purpose.

Fresh Mead: Another solid drink, +2 skills (if fresh) for up to 1.5 hours is pretty amazing, previously the short duration was an issue but this will be good for anyone that makes use of skills, possibly allowing higher dirty fighting dcs, or special fear dcs etc. Might be the go to drink in PVP for +2 unremovable (never checked can it be dispelled) disc/conc/etc. Also useful in pve for skill monkey's like bards, more search, more lore for book cases.

Rice Wine: NOTE, Currently bugged, tested on live, supposed to give 50% poison immunity with fresh (and +2 poison saves) but does nothing, ran to mushroom and my save bonus was equal to my char sheet fort and I took full dmg (minus essence) from mushroom.

However I will review it based on what it is supposed to do. In which case I find this drink very questionable. There are very few sources of poison dmg on arelith and they typically don't crest above 10 or so damage so this doesn't do much. The typical use of poison immunity isn't the damage but protecting someone from nat 1 rolls, especially from poisoned player weapons. The save bonus also isn't much, most poison's have low dc so base fort +con bonuses alone are enough past the first few levels. (dont think it stacks with ironguts which is +4 anyway)

I think if we don't want full poison immunity then an alternative might be to give it 10 posion dr (if fresh) and, if possible within the engine, give it a slippery mind like effect for poison rolls, say reroll 1 failed save per round (or turn if that too powerful) This grants you pseudo immunity without making you actually immune and will protect you against most pve poison effects while not being too strong against poisoned player weapons.

Additionally the old drink giving poison immunity gave you +10 to applying poisons on your weapon, maybe that bonus could be added separately to the fresh effect?

Harnak Spirit: Not as useful as some other but still solid. Fresh giving +2 will is fairly strong espcially for classes that struggle to get enough will saves and can't get full spellcraft. It also protects against spellcraftless ablities like barbarian fear or knight fear and dirty fighting. Can be nice in pve in places with a lot of will saves where you havent save capped yet and can't afford to spam lesser mind blank scrolls.

Fruit Brandy: one of the problematic ones. (along with golden spirit which I will get to) it's primary effect of restoring HP doesnt grok with drinking in a tavern for a bonus, and drinking in a dungeon for hp will remove the bonus of any other drink and if not fresh will lower it's own bonus (if you drink in tavern then drink again) rendering it questionably useful.

Further more the heal on this one was already pretty useless (20% before change) at 15% it's nearly useless give the large sobriety cost and the fact that it doesn't stack. Heal's for about 75 hp with 540 max hp, which is just about crit heal level, while costing as much sobriety as a heal pot(without iron guts).

The special bonus of +2 fort for fresh is kinda nice for the same reasons as the +2 will of harnak, frankly if the heal was removed this might be nice on it's own. Though not as strong as the will bonus considering that most people max out con for hp and thus will have enough fort save for most dc's, this could still be nice for non con maxxing mages and the like against dirty fighters.

Golden Spirit: Hoo boy this one is not a super great change. Same as with fruit brandy having it give a specialty bonus when it's primary use is healing is odd, it will remove any other bonus and nerf it self if not fresh. The biggest issue reduced healing 30% down from 40%. A high hp 720 character will get only 210 heal from it which is only a bit better than heal pot (155hp) while not benefiting from iron guts(and thus costing twice as much sobriety) as well as not stacking and not healing instantly. With a cost of mojo, glass bottle, and gold leaf it's also not much cheaper either. And this is all with a high hp character! with a more typical hp level (I tested 540) it will only heal 150 hp! which is LESS than a heal pot while having all those downsides previously mentioned.

In all honesty I think golden spirit should simply be reverted to it's old form (40% heal, no specialty effect so it doesn't overwrite other drinks) it's hard to change the heal amount as it will always complete with heal pots. Potentially a different change could be to make iron guts apply to all drinks, Though I prefer the former as at certain hp levels 30% would still end up weaker than heal pot while not being instant or stacking (in inv). Could always add to the description "Everlasting freshness!"

Spiced Rum: Not as universally useful as the other but still solid, 10% cold di and dr makes it very useful in any situation where you might take cold damage; granted there are only a few places where that applies. Also potentially useful against spellsword with cold imbue (a decent pvp imbule for its effect though many use magic imbue and rely on crits for ele strike)

All in all I like the changes but feel some drinks could use a tweak. For me personally its unfortunate that I can't sell these drink in a shop anymore but I get that was an intended change. Only drink I really have issue with is golden spirit as listed above.


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DM MoonMoon
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by DM MoonMoon » Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:47 pm

Hello Nazmina,

This is great feedback, and of course many areas are in flux especially in balancing.
The potions are not intended to take the place of others, like heal pots for example. As they are far easier to get the materials for!

The healing amount may be further adjusted in the future, but I would prefer to test over a period of time before I (or the lead on balancing) makes the call.
This also leads into the 1.5hours on them, we are still looking at the times and may up them in the future, but want to get a feel of this first.

The team has other projects, regarding poisons, diseases, so hopefully the drinks may have more of a part in those areas!
As mentioned though, the Ripplebark does stop a few new curses! That's a great counter, but comes at the cost of losing out on another drink which gives +2 will or +2 fort.
I am aiming to create "Situational" drinks that add a minor buff, not ones that blanket stop everything.

The poison resist was a balance change much like the belt was, and as previously mentioned, will play a part in future poison items!

Regarding drinks in shops, it was a choice to help make more inns want herbalists (cooks/brewers) to be on hand so they can be popular and bring more RP to inns.
I know not everyone will RP this way, some will come in, drink and leave. But Hopefully this will encourage more to use inns for RP!
But rest assured, I am looking at other things Herbalists can have for shops, to be as useful as other crafters like Smiths and Tailors.

Hope that helps,
And thank you kindly for the feedback, this has been a project ive been working on for some time.
-Doggo

DM Wraith: @DM MoonMoon Nice one, Idk howl you do it, it does seem a bit furfetched

Nazmina
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by Nazmina » Sat Mar 23, 2024 8:38 pm

For the golden spirit healing effect, it may not be intended to replace heal pots but it does compete with them. As both heal and both cost sobriety and an action to use a person would have to make decsion as to which to use in battle. And for anyone with 540hp(max) or less you would never use them because they are simply weaker. (In addition to not stacking) As for the cost, Golden spirits cost about the same as heal potions based on the value of the materials (as I have seen them sold in UD where they arent overpriced)

Heal potion: (craft makes 2 so I halved to compare to golden spirit which makes 1)

1 Lady's Tear: 100
1 King's Crown: 500
1 Mojo: 200 (assuming you craft it your self)
1 Glass Bottle: 100
1 Gem Dust (Alexandrite): 0 (I never see them sold and have found 100s sitting in art craft stations)
Total: 900g

Golden Spirit:

1 Glass Bottle: 100
2 Lady's Tear: 200
1 Mojo: 200
2 Yarrow Leaves: 100
1 Gold Leaf : 200 (5 from gold bar which are worth about 1000)
Total: 800g

Golden spirit only requires 4cp to make, but with dc42 you would need at least 40 herb skill to make and if you have 40 skill point then the dc21 cp20 heal pots only take 10cp to make which comes to 5cp per. So both heal and golden spirits cost roughly the same.

All that said I think its fine to wait to evaluate the healing portion of the golden spirit. But my bigger issue is with the secondary effect, the specialty (fresh) bonus of 2con.

If you are keeping golden spirits for healing use then they likely wont be fresh so you'll only get 1 con if you drink it for healing in combat, but even worse you'll lose any other specialty buff you might have such as the very useful +1 regen from yarrow beer or the +2 skill from fresh mead. Honestly if the only change you were to make was to remove the specialty bonus from golden spirit I think that would be better. So that you don't lose a buff if you heal with it. Frankly the con bonus is of limited use compared to the other bonuses. Most people (who are rich enough to afford golden spirits regularly) will gear for 7 con and drink bears to cap, most won't lower there gear for a buff they can't rely on. Even the minor value of using a golden spirit (fresh or not) to increase your con so that you don't lose as much if dispelled seems to niche to be useful compared to all of the other drink bonuses.

I think Golden spirit would be more desirable as just a heal that won't remove your specialty bonus from other drinks and if needed a new drink could be added that provides it specialty bonus separately (+1con +2 fresh). I think the same thing could be done for fruit brandy as well. Separating them so you get a drink for +1fort (2 fresh) and a separate cheap drink for a small 15% heal (at the standard sobriety cost)

As for the Rice wine, my concern was that currently 50% poison damage immunity isn't very useful as there aren't any sources of poison damage that do more then 5-15 damage for which defensive essences is already good enough. However if new stronger sources of poison are added then 50% feels like Too much, when compared to the 10% di 10dr of spiced rum.

The new rice wine provides little effective protection against poisoned status attacks, very few poisons have higher than dc30 which most people will easily meet, if not with base stats and gear then definitely with some other save buffs like iron guts and alignment protection. Most poison status application are the result of a nat 1 which I why I though rice wine (fresh) providing some kind of (very) limited slippery mind effect would be useful, so that you could wade into a nest of spiders and not get poisoned 10 times in a single battle (all as result of nat 1s). In its current state I can't see too many people considering rice wine compared to the other drinks even if they know they will face a lot of poison in their travel. Though as said I don't know what kind of new stuff is coming up, there might be a new dungeon with enemies breathing 20d6 poison dmg every round for which the current rice wine will be all but required.

At any rate I still like the changes, I am already brewing and passing out yarrow beer to all my companions in a tavern before we head out and have thought about using a bar to sell drinks or offer them free in exchange for battle (my character's obsession), might have to ask about the spiders web getting a proper bar since its next to a proper arena.


TheDoctor
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by TheDoctor » Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:59 pm

Nazmina wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2024 4:06 pm

Changes listed here viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&p=336214#p336214

Overall I like the general thrust of the changes but think some of them have some issues with the way arelith works.

First up if the intention is to drink in a tavern then head out to battle the 1.5 hour duration might not be long enough. The travel time and length of several dungeons especially epic ones can be as long or longer than 1.5 hours even if you rush and never stop to RP or take a break. Which means it will wear off usually in the final room. Lower level character who might do 2-3 dungeons before running to town might also see the buff run out. I think changing the tavern duration to 2 hours (or 3 if you are feeling generous) would allow people to drink and take their time in dungeons RP etc.

I agree 100% with everything you have here except what I have quoted. I think you missed a very big part of the announcement that I am rather excited for......

The idea here is to promote more RP around Campfire rests or preparation entering a dungeon.

So if yer in a tavern and the place you wanna go to is far away, the whole idea and point is to have an herbalist with you and to do RP.


Nazmina
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by Nazmina » Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:39 pm

TheDoctor wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:59 pm

I agree 100% with everything you have here except what I have quoted. I think you missed a very big part of the announcement that I am rather excited for......

The idea here is to promote more RP around Campfire rests or preparation entering a dungeon.

So if yer in a tavern and the place you wanna go to is far away, the whole idea and point is to have an herbalist with you and to do RP.

I suppose I'll need to bite the bullet and actually carry a cookpot and water around with me then.


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Bazelgeuse
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by Bazelgeuse » Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:43 pm

Nazmina wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:39 pm

I suppose I'll need to bite the bullet and actually carry a cookpot and water around with me then.

The Firewood item spawns a campfire that can be used as a herbalism crafting station. They're super handy :)


TheDoctor
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by TheDoctor » Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:57 pm

Bazelgeuse wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:43 pm
Nazmina wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:39 pm

I suppose I'll need to bite the bullet and actually carry a cookpot and water around with me then.

The Firewood item spawns a campfire that can be used as a herbalism crafting station. They're super handy :)

Super easy to find and take up such a small space too. Plus they stack!


Quidix
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by Quidix » Sun Mar 24, 2024 10:07 pm

It's a nice addition, thank you. I'd like if:

(1) The tavern duration was 2-3 hours instead, given the length of many adventures.
(2) The DC was 20 across all of them. It's a odd some of them are DC 40, making them hard to brew vs say Heal potions and only feasible to brew by high-level characters. Lowering it would encourage more use and RP.


And Spring Became the Summer
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by And Spring Became the Summer » Thu Apr 04, 2024 4:00 pm

Having religiously used Yarrow Beer since its improvement, I'm also of the mindset that the timer needs to be doubled.

I drank the beer in the Skal tavern and then set out on a writ with a companion. A half hour later, after engaging encounters along the way and not speed-running through places, we arrive in the area. "Oh hey look, there's a tower! Let's go inside and explore it." We did, but I found myself clicking the regen icon to see how much time was ticking away from the perk instead of focusing on the enjoyment of finding a new area and seeing what all was there. By the time we did what is encouraged - RP and explore something new - there was only a half hour remaining on the perk. It ran out during the writ completion.

Travel time from taverns should be taken into account. While I'm sure there are places where a drink can be had before hitting a portal, there are other places where that just isn't possible. If extending the initial duration isn't feasible, then perhaps giving higher-skilled Herbalists a once-per-reset ability to make a campfire act as a tavern for drinking purposes? Because as of now, the duration runs counter to the stated desire to "slow down and enjoy things" and promotes speeding through as fast as possible so the perk isn't lost.


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MissEvelyn
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:22 am

What if we came up with 3 tiers of drunk bonus duration, instead of two. Something like this:

  • Regular (0.5h)
  • Hearth Bonus (1.5h)
  • Tavern Bonus (3h)

Hearth Bonus can be gained from consuming the drink near a campfire (the one spawned by firewood).

With this scheme, you're not punishing people for campfire RP, but you're making it especially attractive to go to a tavern, as they'd give the longest duration, in addition to the fresh bonus.


Griefmaker
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by Griefmaker » Fri Apr 05, 2024 2:19 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:22 am

What if we came up with 3 tiers of drunk bonus duration, instead of two. Something like this:

  • Regular (0.5h)
  • Hearth Bonus (1.5h)
  • Tavern Bonus (3h)

Hearth Bonus can be gained from consuming the drink near a campfire (the one spawned by firewood).

With this scheme, you're not punishing people for campfire RP, but you're making it especially attractive to go to a tavern, as they'd give the longest duration, in addition to the fresh bonus.

I think this is a great idea.


FurnishMyFlatForCheap
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Re: Feedback: Specialty Herbalism Drinks

Post by FurnishMyFlatForCheap » Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:38 pm

The time a drink stays fresh from crafting could be extended out a little longer, I’ve taken the dog out and made a pot of coffee and come back and my pretend coffee is stale before my real one.


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