Arelith

Having recently done some testing on PGCC, I have come across a startling conundrum:

In effect, feylock does not have a greater blast effect.

Allow me to explain - Feylock's greater blast effect of applying a 50% miss chance is, in theory, an excellent feature and worthy of its status. However, every player character and more than half of the NPCs I've tested against in the PGCC have the Blind Fight feat. This feat, by its vanilla implementation, negates all miss chance affecting the player directly. As such, for more than 75-80% of the module, especially considering the feature comes online at level 20+, where nearly every enemy you face has the Blind Fight feat, you will not be able to make use of this feature.

I feel like this is an oversight, but understand - albeit to my disappointment - if it is not.

It is 55% concealment, which is more than Improved Invisibility.

The difference is that Improved Invisibility can be removed via many different means, but as far as I know, the Fey Warlock miss chance cannot be removed in any way, making it a lot more reliable way of avoiding 27% of attacks against someone with Blind Fight.

I would not say this is an amazing epic blast effect, but it is pretty decent.

Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:14 am

It is 55% concealment, which is more than Improved Invisibility.

The difference is that Improved Invisibility can be removed via many different means, but as far as I know, the Fey Warlock miss chance cannot be removed in any way, making it a lot more reliable way of avoiding 27% of attacks against someone with Blind Fight.

I would not say this is an amazing epic blast effect, but it is pretty decent.

Incorrect.

If I'm understanding the implementation correctly, this is applied as an attacker miss chance.

Per the default behavior of blind fight:

This feat effectively squares the effect of all concealment (reducing 50% to 25% and 10% to 1%). Furthermore, it negates all attacker miss chances

I have confirmed that this is how the ability interacts with Blind Fight in testing and unless I have astronomically high luck rolling that 45% every time, the feature is functionally disabled if your opponent has blind fight.

I am saying that the attacker did not suffer miss chance in over 50 swings, which is mathematically improbable.

Ah you might be entirely right then, I was not aware Blind Fight negated miss chances on yourself. It is indeed pretty bad then.

Concealment has always been a major factor in PVE content.
What you've written about every enemies have blind fight feat OR even if they DO have, you will still apply the concealment on yourself because It's just super important together with your high AC.

What i believe that is being argued here is that the mere 5% improvement in concealment which is granted by Improved Invisibility 50% versus the Feylock blast effect of 55%.

Do not look down on the 5% improvement in concealment because it will still matter in the long run.
Any single digit over 50% tips the scale.
What is originally
50% Concealment ( Defender ) vs 50% Accuracy ( Attacker )
becomes
55% Concealment ( Defender ) vs 45% Accuracy ( Attacker )

It is at the sametime, not something that is gamebreaking because of the existant blind fight feat. However, it does still make attacker miss more than they hit when it comes to RNG. No one will reject higher RNG chance.
You can't possibly ask for better effect than that.

And what Shadow Reality wrote about the removal effect of concealment which is pretty much everywhere with a single cast from a rod of faerie fire is all that is needed, is redundant against feylock blast effect and the blast effect at the sametime, belongs to a higher tier concealment effect.

I believe what they are saying is that the Feylocks effect is applied to the targets attack, which the feat completely negates, thus you actually get 0% concealment.

Not that 55% concealment isn't worth it due to blindsight, but specifically that because the Feylocks blast is applied to an enemy as a debuff, and the blind fight completely negates that, that it effectively does nothing.

Kalthariam wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:20 am

I believe what they are saying is that the Feylocks effect is applied to the targets attack, which the feat completely negates, thus you actually get 0% concealment.

Not that 55% concealment isn't worth it due to blindsight, but specifically that because the Feylocks blast is applied to an enemy as a debuff, and the blind fight completely negates that, that it effectively does nothing.

This is precisely what I am saying.

If it were still 55% rerolled > effective _27% , that would be something and that would be tolerable and understandable. However, due to how the debuff is applied, it is literally 0% on any content that would be considered challenging, as all of the enemies have a feat that literally, unironically, negates all miss chance status debuffs applied to the attacker.

How did you come to the realization that it's not working?
I'm very certain that i've seen the combat written "Missed....55% Concealment" when doing PVE content frequently.

Edit :

Furthermore, it negates all attacker miss chances

Yes i did read this. But I'm certain that i've seen the missed chance written in combat log as well.

Not many mobs have Blind Fight.

huh blind fight negates miss chance? I'm not sure about that, maybe it does but it's not something I've seen

It does indeed negate miss chance. However, the epic fey pact blast perk is intentionally a bit weaker since the pact has a greater focus on its spell selection (which is greater than that of most other pacts).

Kalopsia wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:08 pm

It does indeed negate miss chance. However, the epic fey pact blast perk is intentionally a bit weaker since the pact has a greater focus on its spell selection (which is greater than that of most other pacts).

Considering the recent changes to Warlock's damaging spells, those gaining increased cooldowns with the expressed intention of making warlock rely more on blasting;

Considering that Feylock in particular was hit in its single damaging option with the aforementioned change, losing ready access to Ice Storm;

Considering that relying on spell save DCs when a significant amount of content is either mind immune or, especially in the case of pvp, going to automatically pass the save on anything other than a 1;

Considering that Warlock specifically does not even have access to ESF to boost their save DCs to the point where they aren't 1-fishing against significant portions of epic content, especially in light of the desire to push warlocks to use Eldritch Blast as their primary damage option, mandating a focus on DEX over CHA;

Considering that the 55% miss chance feature is quite literally disabled against any PVE or PVP content that has access to Blind Fight, which is a significant portion of the content presented from where the feature becomes available;

I posit that fey warlock's spell selection does not have staying power post 20-25 against PVE content, much less so in PVP, and especially so now that you can no longer buff your summons with Mass Zoo spells to make up the difference in output. Further, I observe that fey warlock has been given the short end of the stick, and suggest that this is an area of potential improvement that will not destabilize the rest of the pact nor destabilize the perceived direction of class design.

Edit:

Comparing the greater blast effect to, say, Star, Undying, or Hag pacts, which have similarly punchy spell lists when compared to Fey Pact's offerings:

Undying: Eldritch Blast heals the Warlock by 1d4 per 6 levels.
Star: Eldritch Blast activates a Psionic inertial barrier (10/+5 DR, duration 1 round). This barrier will also protect against Isaac's Lesser Missile Storm if the Warlock has Spell Focus: Abjuration and Isaac's Greater Missile Storm if the warlock has the Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration.
Hag: Eldritch Blast triggers a single-target Sleep spell (DC 16 + CHA modifier, increased by Enchantment foci vs. Will save) with a duration of 1-2 rounds.
They also exhaust (all) targets failing the save, lowering their Rest meter by 2d8% ot 1d8% if the save is made.
(Negative Energy Protection, Shadow Shield and Mind Immunity prevents this).
Unseelie: Miss chance equal to 25% plus 1% per warlock level (=55%). Duration: 1 round.

As we can see, many of these benefits are relatively niche defensive benefits or unlikely to occur/have significant impact in combat. Despite this, there is no singular feat or feature that will completely erase the ability, a feature which is taken by 99% of the playerbase and at least 60% or more of level appropriate content from when the feature becomes available.

My remark isn't that the benefit isn't small, it is that the benefit does not exist in content that is appropriate for your level in all but a handfull of cases.

Kalopsia wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:08 pm

It does indeed negate miss chance. However, the epic fey pact blast perk is intentionally a bit weaker since the pact has a greater focus on its spell selection (which is greater than that of most other pacts).

As AskRyze noted in his reply, this is precisely why I made that other thread lamenting the Ice Storm change.

With a much weaker blast, reliance on fishing for 1s with DC spells, and now no ready access to Ice Storm (which was only the base Ice Storm, as it couldn't be recast if empowered), Feylock is now in a really miserable place in terms of power and general QoL compared to the other warlock paths.

You could toss us a bone by giving us magic damage blasts - we've fallen by the wayside a bit but I'm reluctant to say feylocks are in a "bad" place, although a lot of that is general warlock power and not directly fey. Feylocks get a lot of "fun" spells (Slow, Dominate, Polymorph) but only two really "good" ones - mind fog and spike growth.

My feylock is a chain blaster with GSF Transmutation (and illusion but only for the in-game SMS) and as much fun as slow/fog/spike spam is, it hasn't got a patch on a Fathomless Empowered Entropic Evard's or Undying's self-sustain while AoEing trick.

As a serial feylock player and enjoyer, I definitely think their greater blast effect being essentially nonexistent in pvp/most difficult pve is a big bummer.

Their blast dmg types were substantially nerfed as positive/magic was seen as too strong, their only decent spammable damage spell was given a 3 minute cooldown, and as stated they functionally have no greater blast effect currently. Hard to justify making a blaster/summoner feylock over infernal/abyssal/fathomless/etc at the moment, for me.

I may even go further to say that its one genuine gimmick - being a healer with positive energy blast - isn't even the strongest pact to do healing with, given access to empowered life transferrence on CD, which is usable more than enough to get the job done when it meeds to be.

Fey pact warlock is arguably in the worst place of any warlock pact and needs a facelift.

Honestly Star has it worse.
They lost all there attack spells to cool down except frigid darkness which is rubbish, have no elemental blasts and the only way they can kill a troll shaman is by hitting it with a sword with fire/acid damage on it or have a summon do it it.
There best abilities are enchantment based and they have no ability to give mind protection to the summon.
And if you have the summon your eldritch blasts suck so your damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Oh the epic pact blast bonus gives you a 10 DR damage shield for that round that is defeated by a +5 weapon which everyone can get plus at 10 DR it would just be hammered through without issue.

I vote Star as worse pact right now!

Forgot to add that they also got hex but seeing how hexblade is now gone that is also completely redundant.

chris a gogo wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:21 am

Honestly Star has it worse.
They lost all there attack spells to cool down except frigid darkness which is rubbish, have no elemental blasts and the only way they can kill a troll shaman is by hitting it with a sword with fire/acid damage on it or have a summon do it it.
There best abilities are enchantment based and they have no ability to give mind protection to the summon.
And if you have the summon your eldritch blasts suck so your damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Oh the epic pact blast bonus gives you a 10 DR damage shield for that round that is defeated by a +5 weapon which everyone can get plus at 10 DR it would just be hammered through without issue.

I vote Star as worse pact right now!

Forgot to add that they also got hex but seeing how hexblade is now gone that is also completely redundant.

You're absolutely right, both star and fey pacts need a facelift, and I'd argue Hag as well in the current era, but just because star or hag needs a facelift doesn't mean that fey does not also need a facelift.

If we can get an improvement for one pact, we can get an improvement for more, and currently fey has the momentum and consensus toward it.

Let's start here.

chris a gogo wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:21 am

Honestly Star has it worse.
They lost all there attack spells to cool down except frigid darkness which is rubbish, have no elemental blasts and the only way they can kill a troll shaman is by hitting it with a sword with fire/acid damage on it or have a summon do it it.
There best abilities are enchantment based and they have no ability to give mind protection to the summon.
And if you have the summon your eldritch blasts suck so your damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Oh the epic pact blast bonus gives you a 10 DR damage shield for that round that is defeated by a +5 weapon which everyone can get plus at 10 DR it would just be hammered through without issue.

I vote Star as worse pact right now!

Forgot to add that they also got hex but seeing how hexblade is now gone that is also completely redundant.

losing withering ray as a spammable basically made it not a spell. in general, it feels like a weird spell for anyone but warlock to have conceptually. may as well nerf it, and remove the cooldown or something.

at minimum three minute cooldowns are a little ridiculous. let me just do less dps every 3 minutes than my actual up front dps.

Economics For Hexblades wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:29 pm

losing withering ray as a spammable basically made it not a spell. in general, it feels like a weird spell for anyone but warlock to have conceptually. may as well nerf it, and remove the cooldown or something.

at minimum three minute cooldowns are a little ridiculous. let me just do less dps every 3 minutes than my actual up front dps.

I'd say the same for any of the "damage only" 3 min cooldown spells. Things like Evards, sure - that's a powerful control spell that itself clears or disables entire enemy squads, even in boss encounters. However, Ice Storm, Withering Ray, and Redbolt don't even guarantee a kill on single characters, let alone a pack of enemies.

These spells have no purpose if they can't be repeatedly cast, given that enemies have more and more HP, higher and higher saving throw bonuses. If one cast of withering ray can't clear, there's no reason to cast it once every 3 minutes instead of some other spell that either secures a kill, or change to using EB to clear packs - which goes back to my point on the greater blast effects.

If the idea is that warlock shouldn't be using their damaging spells to clear content, then those spells should be replaced, or their absence made up for in other areas.