Why is PvE so easy?

[Kreindis]

I was browsing the development discord and someone mentioned that PvE is too easy. I also feel this way too.

PvE has a reverse difficulty curve like XCOM games. The beginning levels are a struggle where you have to heal, group, tolerate the '1 APR dance' for awhile but then you quickly get stronger and then soon you're walking into a group of level appropriate enemies, hitting elemental maelstrom, and then everything dies. Bosses still a pose a decent challenge, especially if a group isn't 4+ players. But generally because of the fact that Arelith is an RP server, giant armies of PCs steam rolling dungeons is pretty common.

But why is it like this way? To let everyone not have their progress impeded by a difficulty curve/not having friends? To accomodate a diabo-like style ARPG play that Arelith does better than any of the other populated servers?

PvE is generally the one thing that everyone on the server can do without someone getting upset or having differing opinions on something. Since Arelith takes a DM approach that is less active about player involvement. PvE is the thing that everyone can do when there is nothing else going on, players will always have agency to engage with it.

So my feedback is that I think the champion mob system is great because it adds a layer of non-DM controlled surprise. There's also another system that was really cool to see way back when which was the population balance thing. Where like suddenly Bendir guards had to worry about blood moon orcs ganking people on their territory. Its still PvE but it makes for a cool moment.

In fact I think the champion system is the greatest addition to the PvE experience. More proc gen content like that please.

It obviously reminds me of like elites in Diablo games, but I suppose it would be be nice if it was more like Shadow of Mordor/War's Nemesis system. I would never ask THAT level of of complexity into the system but it has the potential.

Edit: To get away from the spellsword feedback. I'm not actually playing a spellsword. This is less about the spellsword and more about the fact that the experience is the same. You will still get the same wrecking ball experience with 3 fighters. I would even further say this exacerbates the problem. Because the game becomes a 'better experience' if I put artificial handicaps on myself.

But in no way is that the day to day experience of just going into people that you don't know, and getting a dungeon group together.

[Shadowy Reality]

PvE is mostly easy for people who have played Arelith for a while, who know what each spawn does, and at what level they can tackle them, or if their current build can tackle it.

If you are going in blind the experience is not so smooth, even with a cookie cutter build designed for PvE.

I think this is fine, it is good that PvE can mostly be tackled solo and that you don't need to expend a fortune of gold to be able to do it. There are other NWN servers out there in which PvE is very difficult (my only experience was PoTM), and it is not for everyone.

I will note that Arelith also has PvE that is on the harder side and that is not so easily solo'd or can't be solo'd at all. Maurs, deeper levels of the Deep Wells, The Bastille are all examples of places where you will likely die if you are going solo. The Bastille is pretty difficult even with a group with very little margin for error.

As a sidenote, I also really liked the balance system and would love to have seen it expanded rather than removed.

[Whosdis]

This is an open-ended question with an idea veiled behind the original post of adding more PVE content. Was that a way to get people to click on the title? I don't mean offense by asking, but it seems you lead into
 
I mean people say the PVE is easy, but how many people have killed Paush, let alone more than once? How many people have gone deeper into the Asylum than the Shadovar writ requires you to go? How many people want to do the Formian citadel in the Underdark after having done it the first time?

Skaljard is harder, but I can solo a great deal of it and the beauty of Skaljard is that it is easy to make groups. I also won't get lost for hours on end doing the writs, because I have done it enough times to know where everything is located. New players do not have this luxury, and on top of that, I think we can all agree that people make comparatively naive choices when they are picking up Neverwinter Nights for the first time. We all know that a fighter who will wear full plate needs str > con in that order. New players are going to put points into charisma because they don't want their character to be uncharismatic. New players might miss that you ought to have at least 13 intelligence for certain feats, feats necessary if you make a Weapon Master for example.

Is it easy? I mean, possibly. I still wouldn't try soloing the Maurs for example. We all have the example of having played Neverwinter Nights servers for a long time, but I think getting those players back is like clawing for water from a dried up well. If you want the new players to stick, they ought to have a bit of fun. It's why I think things such as set class et al being phased out is a bit tragic: I think we can all agree that levelling our first PC's was tough*, and having to start all over again can be pretty daunting.

So, there is existing content, but it's not oft-pursued. Things like Paush we can not only chalk up to the difficulty and mechanics of the fight (which people probably wouldn't figure out the FOIG way without people informing them anyway), but getting to Zanshibon through the Abyss is a pain. I had one odd streak of luck of going south out of the Balor Maw Lake once and dipping right into Zanshibon ... When I was levelling and had no hope of pursuing the fight. (Some players were already there and had a big undead army, so I left them to it: If I didn't, I guarantee I would have gone in and got splatted.)

*Aside from servers like PoTM, but outside of that it's pretty niche. In the 2010's the on-and-off big server used to be Amia, and they have a levelling system that's lightning fast. Where else are we drawing players from? Project 1999 Everquest?

That being: The Champion system is nice but it's a pretty small addition IMO, granted it is seamless and yes, the yellow names can splat you if you're not careful.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

elemental maelstrom....

yeah. there's your answer. spellsword makes everything easy

try a mundane instead, you'll find a much different experience.

[Algol]

I think the issue is rewards stop scaling after a point. I know it's a big of an extreme example but consider Udos vs Red dragon isle. Udos is considerably longer and harder than RDI and you only get a runic chest at the end. Mean while in RDI you have a chance to get adamintine as well.

[Kreindis]

This is an open-ended question with an idea veiled behind the original post of adding more PVE content. Was that a way to get people to click on the title? I don't mean offense by asking, but it seems you lead into

My feedback is that PvE is too easy. On a general level.

I'm mainly talking about the things that people who are looking for PvE will be able to engage with on a relatively easy basis. Which are done multiple times a day. Red Dragon Isle, Aurilite Temple, Viper Monastery, 4 Mast sailing content. Deep wells.

If you have a 2-3 person group. You can left click through most of these things with ease.

The reason the thread is open ended is to see what other people think.

I 100% concede that Arelith is much harder if you are trying to solo dungeons. And more fun. But it's also a multiplayer game. For me, I'd go so far as to say I enjoy Arelith as a solo experience more than a multiplayer game because of this.

And that's my feedback.

I think it is way more satisfying to have a hard battle that someone died in than to run into a group of enemies and instantly get them all to either dead or 'badly wounded' with 1 button.

But I also think the power fantasy isn't without merit, that's what Diablo is all about. And what Arelith provides in the form of the 'reverse difficulty curve' that I talked about. You start out weak but soon enough you're getting 60-100 crits with a 2x weapon and that is by itself, a pretty satisfying feeling (to me).

This is also why I bring up the champion system. Its the thing that lets the normal dungeon turn into something with a twist. It's super rare and very dependant on what dungeon you're doing that a champion can actually cause a huge amount of issue. But even so, I think it adds to the PvE dopamine hit. Not to mention the champion system just furthers my Diablo analogy.

So in short, the easier difficulty is fine because it serves a purpose. But it would be nice to have PvE making memorable moments for players rather than just being the 'left click and vibe' go-to.

Maybe I should be more accepting of the left click and vibe.

[Kreindis]

elemental maelstrom....

yeah. there's your answer. spellsword makes everything easy

try a mundane instead, you'll find a much different experience.

I bring up Elemental Maelstrom because mundanes just have it too in the form of Whirlwind.

More importantly, I literally cannot try a mundane for this scenario. I'm taking grouping into account.

I think it would be really shallow if I refused to group with a character because they were a spellsword.

[Kalthariam]

You're playing a Spellsword.

Of course PvE is easy for you.

Try doing the same thing on a Mundane Class.

Spellsword is literally easy mode on the server, it's commonly cited as one of the most powerful classes on the server.

If you know what your doing you can basically do anything you want sure.

I'd rather PvE Content be accessible, and have harder things available if people want a challenge than to bump up the challenge of the entire server.

[Kythana]

PvE is always going to be easy in a game that focuses more on preparation instead of execution. Generally speaking, for pve, there are few things you can do determined by player skill. Either you have the tools, or you don't. It's very binary.

What I would even consider "challenging" content ingame isn't even difficult. It's just tedious and artificial. Mobs that have super high AC, AB, bloated DCs and saves doesn't make the content difficult, because the execution ultimately remains the same.

If you want real difficulty, you need to introduce mechanics that are determinant by player skill, which I doubt many players want, nor do I think is really technically probable.

[Eyeliner]

PVE content in this game is mostly static so if you beat a dungeon once you know what to do every time you return. The difficulty in this game is learning and figuring out what monster does what and getting a sense of the house style so you have an idea what to expect when you do go somewhere new.

Unless there’s a massive and probably not possible shift to make Arelith dungeons roguelike that probably won’t change.

[Someone Lost]

One option would be bringing in mutators a random list of immunities and special powers the enemies could roll with similar to path of exile, it would make the content harder and you couldn't that much just know what to expect, but seriously this has never been a problem the problem is classes that outperform so ridiculous levels it's not even funny to others grouping with them.

[kirisin]

elemental maelstrom....

yeah. there's your answer. spellsword makes everything easy

try a mundane instead, you'll find a much different experience.

I bring up Elemental Maelstrom because mundanes just have it too in the form of Whirlwind.

More importantly, I literally cannot try a mundane for this scenario. I'm taking grouping into account.

I think it would be really shallow if I refused to group with a character because they were a spellsword.

Seriously, Try something that isnt a spellsword and then come back.

[Coolguy McMagic]

Please don't make PVE harder. Harder content on Arelith just means inflated stats as well as more frequent and larger groups of mobs. There's nothing fun or interesting about having every spell either fail due to 40+ saves or deal neglibile damage due to bloated health pools.

[Iceborn]

Arelith used to be a much tougher server, sometimes outright mean.
Walk into a room, get blasted with a slow AoE, swarmed by little cretins with sneak attack (and crippling strike!), while a bunch of ranged caster/archers pelt you from away with a combination of poisons OnHit effects and saveless spells. Also they autocast Stoneskin and/or Acid Sheath.

In the passage of time, a lot of the old design decisions stopped making sense and fresher devs that spawned from a fresher playerbase pushed for QoL and more sensible dungeon design. However, without the mean spirited design, PvE in NWN is... easy.
Short of some arenas where you can get locked into a fight to the death where you need to be wisely prepared before entering, the game is fundamentally free - you can run away from any fight, you can disappear, teleport away, you can throw some Invisibility and the clueless mobs will stand there looking like a bunch of gapers, because despite all the improvements we could throw into Arelith, the AI is... pretty hard to work with.

It's not to say that it can't be modified, but to the point to argue where it should.
Do you want mobs to chase you room after room using Sprint and acid grenades and try to block your path?
Do you want mobs that avoid your summons and scan the party for low AC, swarm them and move one member at the time ignoring the tanks?
Do you want mobs that combo debuffs, drop your discipline to the floor KD/Disarm spam you and then run with your sword?

Even if we could code such things, should we?

PvE in Arelith is usually either part of the adventure, or a long run tutorial to learn the gist of your character.
The fun in it is the fun you derive from playing your character, from testing how a build does against another, and from the interactions you get in having a light-hearted, and usually stakeless adventure.
That's not to say that meaningful narratives can't happen in an adventure - they can - but usually, it's not the main dish.
I think that at most we will only see specialized dungeons that present a kind of challenge that you have to prepare for, but we won't see any server-wide philosophy that relates to 'difficulty'.

It's an RPG after all.
A staple of the genre is that if a place is too hard for you, you can just grind elsewhere and come back later.
Even the dungeons that are balanced for 30s cannot account for the sheer array of builds that will visit it, or the number of people in the party. It's an ultimately unbalanced game, and difficulty comes from not knowing how tough a dungeon as you delve in with a build you aren't confident with, with a bunch of people you barely know and barely understand what they can do.
Or you can go hit the [Insert common dungeon here] again with a [insert strong class here] and your regular buddies.

[Waldo52]

I'll echo what someone else said about playing a martial if PvE is too hard for you.

There's a story that I tell a lot on these forums. I once made a tribal barbarian/shaman and hid behind a wall of several undead and two tribal goons while casting spells. As a dedicated rogue player 99% of the time my jaw dropped at how trivial all of the content was.

There's always gonna be that Arelith veteran who boasts about how he cleared every dungeon solo as a commoner but the reality is that PVE is hard to do alone for a lot of character types. I hear that barbarians without epic damage resistance are basically suicide machines if not played right. Rogues have an extreme learning curve and require a lot of skill/patience. Cleric subclasses and casters in general that lose out on summoning are tough.

If you want a challenge I would suggest that you go martial or take something that can't summon. Increasing the difficulty of dungeons in general would be extremely punishing for people with weaker solo PVE builds. And as an RP server I feel like the ultimate challenge should be coming up with and maintaining a compelling character anyway.

[MRFTW]

And as an RP server I feel like the ultimate challenge should be coming up with and maintaining a compelling character anyway.

The only end boss I can't beat.

Joking aside this is a really good take, imo.

[AstralUniverse]

Do you want mobs to chase you room after room using Sprint and acid grenades and try to block your path?
Do you want mobs that avoid your summons and scan the party for low AC, swarm them and move one member at the time ignoring the tanks?
Do you want mobs that combo debuffs, drop your discipline to the floor KD/Disarm spam you and then run with your sword?

Even if we could code such things, should we?

Yes, I would like AI to be smarter and deploy more strategies than it's current state. You make it sound like it's a bad thing, idk..
Mobs stats can be modified to compensate for it being suddenly much smarter if it comes to it and the gap in brain is large enough.
I'm not saying it's easy/possible to code, but it's definitely not a bad thing if someone managed to pull it off. There's really no downside in nwn AI being more complex and vivid.

[MissEvelyn]

Oh, you want a challenge? I suggest trying out a character that isn't min-maxed, one that has flaws. Playing a character of Chaotic alignment? Try not putting a single skill in Discipline, and enjoy the challenge of playing an undisciplined person, as one example.

Previous posters have put it perfectly; newcomers come to this server expecting a Roleplay-first approach, not a power gaming at all costs perspective. And so they will make fighters with 12 charisma, or not max out skills like Lore, Spellcraft, or even Discipline.

But if you truly desire a good challenge, make a character with flaws. You'll quickly find that you're pushed to more creative solutions than just left-click, with a weaker/sub-optimal character.

That's not to say I don't agree that we need better systems when it comes to scaling enemies and their numbers to larger parties. Definitely! More of that! More of the champion systems as well, and the ambush/random encounters. Anything that can make our world feel more alive are good additions!
A better AI would be groundbreaking in this old videogame, and we would all love to see it.

But expecting everyone to be min-maxing on a roleplay server is a bit silly, in my humble opinion.

[Irongron]

I also find the free relevels (which was never intended as a permanent feature) can make PvE easy.

Much as I know I shouldn't I sometimes find myself building to be most effective at my current level, then relevel to a more desired build, for that level, later on.

A lot of builds will go through a weak period, especially if crossclassing early, and will only come into their own much later. It used to be trade off, and can now be entirely circumvented. It's jist one of so many ways relevels are abused (dweamorcrafting...).

On the whole though? I tend to play mundanes, and when soloing the server is prohibitively difficult, but as soon as I'm in party of 3 or 4 I'm getting massively bored by how quickly and effortlessly we tear through content

Soloing just makes for more more fun gameplay, and right now I think a party of two is likely the most fun overall.

I'm a bit cauious of saying 'PvE is too easy' because as a player I'm often encountering PvE creatures (like the wolfheads) I think I've very much overtuned for the area.

[Tabby]

Oh, you want a challenge? I suggest trying out a character that isn't min-maxed, one that has flaws. Playing a character of Chaotic alignment? Try not putting a single skill in Discipline, and enjoy the challenge of playing an undisciplined person, as one example.

Previous posters have put it perfectly; newcomers come to this server expecting a Roleplay-first approach, not a power gaming at all costs perspective. And so they will make fighters with 12 charisma, or not max out skills like Lore, Spellcraft, or even Discipline.

But if you truly desire a good challenge, make a character with flaws. You'll quickly find that you're pushed to more creative solutions than just left-click, with a weaker/sub-optimal character.

That's not to say I don't agree that we need better systems when it comes to scaling enemies and their numbers to larger parties. Definitely! More of that! More of the champion systems as well, and the ambush/random encounters. Anything that can make our world feel more alive are good additions!
A better AI would be groundbreaking in this old videogame, and we would all love to see it.

But expecting everyone to be min-maxing on a roleplay server is a bit silly, in my humble opinion.

<3 thank you for this post, you are so right.

[Iceborn]

A nitpick:
The Discipline skill a disciplined person makes not.
Discipline is explicitly the ability to counteract martial maneuvers.
It has nothing to do with your personality.

[Richrd]

Play a pure mundie without being a pseudo-spellsword who uses a dozen scrolls to mimic a fraction of a real spellsword's power.

Your opinion will change.

Magic makes things easy.

[Carrion Eater]

I also find the free relevels (which was never intended as a permanent feature) can make PvE easy.

Much as I know I shouldn't I sometimes find myself building to be most effective at my current level, then relevel to a more desired build, for that level, later on.

Just popping in to more heavily disclaim the underlined part to other readers who might see a green name and think it's an OK: PLEASE do not consider doing this, as it is a misuse of the -relevel command. We aren't supposed to use the -relevel command for the purpose of leveling as one thing to use its ease of leveling, and then level into another thing once we reach the level it'll work at. Naturally, this means that the leveling experience might be a little more difficult for leveling certain builds that don't "come online" until level 20, 24, etc.

Please do not oops yourself into trouble.

... ... ... ... ...

on "is PVE easy?" it depends, sure. In a group, especially a well-made one, you can tackle most/all scenarios. I've also seen similar-sized groups who completely fall apart and still suffer deaths in the boss room. Having an understanding of what is needed in order to clear an area (mind blank, physical damage, acid/fire damage, cold resist, acid resist, someone to rush the phylactery, someone to clear ads, don't-move-forward-until-we-clear-the-landing, yada yada yada) helps to inform and prepare a group in advance for their PVE experience. Less-experienced and newer players alike continue to struggle in places that more-experienced and older players have no trouble in. This falls to server knowledge and game knowledge, and cannot be safely used as a metric for ease of content.

I solo on everything I play, and on some builds (mundane...) it may take a longer time, or a lot of resources, or both. There is a potential give-and-take to "smoother" dungeoneering depending on the build.

To begin, I do not believe the server should move in a direction where individuals are forced to group if they want to complete dungeons/exploration. The time of the player should be respected, regardless of the setting we perceive. Unfortunate as it is, we are not able to consistently match the PNP experience, where the group is already gathered and the adventure is underway, while respecting the players' time. There are already some locations where people are "forced to group" to safely clear them, and if they're unable to play at the correct times or get it running as fast as possible and rush the zone, they may not be able to progress through or complete those areas at all. I don't think that is a design we should gravitate towards.

PVE is "fine" as it is, though that doesn't mean there is no room for improvement. Certain areas are more dangerous than others at their expected level, and others in the same bracket could be brought up to speed. In contrast, areas that are strenuously more difficult than those in the same bracket or even a bracket higher could be reined in.

Mixed mobs and the more prevalent addition of mind immunity (innate or spells), dispels/breaches, high spell resistance, high spot/true seeing, padded health pools, high-UCL undead summons (such as the latest deathdrinker demons having mummy dust orb wraiths), and so on help to add a layer of mechanical difficulty for certain classes while being a breeze for others.

To step away from mechanical power alone, I do believe dungeons could benefit to have more "environmental hazard" challenges added, a la the Sibayad golem halls, storming the gates of Zamishar's Woe, and so on- where the mobs become a complementary feature to a scenario that cannot always be 100% brute-forced. These locations feel acceptably difficult when unprepared/unaware, and can still have room for mistakes/misfortune in a prepared group. They also visually inform the more inexperienced player: you see some flavor text and the golems come to life and you have to rush for the other side, or you see a typical walled chokehold flanked on all sides by devils and know you have to try and breach the gates quickly. When the veteran can know from experience and the newbie can learn more easily on the fly, this is a good design.

These things- environmental challenges and fresh mobs hand-tailored to slow down certain classes- don't force people, necessarily, to group. Instead, it encourages them to if they want a smoother experience. This is a good thing. I wouldn't mind seeing more things that encourage group PVE without iron-fist enforcing it. However, I would never want that to come at the drawback of nobody being able to solo.

[kirisin]

I also find the free relevels (which was never intended as a permanent feature) can make PvE easy.

Much as I know I shouldn't I sometimes find myself building to be most effective at my current level, then relevel to a more desired build, for that level, later on.

Just popping in to more heavily disclaim the underlined part to other readers who might see a green name and think it's an OK: PLEASE do not consider doing this, as it is a misuse of the -relevel command. We aren't supposed to use the -relevel command for the purpose of leveling as one thing to use its ease of leveling, and then level into another thing once we reach the level it'll work at. Naturally, this means that the leveling experience might be a little more difficult for leveling certain builds that don't "come online" until level 20, 24, etc.

Mr. Electric, send him to the principal’s office and have him expelled!

[Irongron]

I also find the free relevels (which was never intended as a permanent feature) can make PvE easy.

Much as I know I shouldn't I sometimes find myself building to be most effective at my current level, then relevel to a more desired build, for that level, later on.

Just popping in to more heavily disclaim the underlined part to other readers who might see a green name and think it's an OK: PLEASE do not consider doing this, as it is a misuse of the -relevel command. We aren't supposed to use the -relevel command for the purpose of leveling as one thing to use its ease of leveling, and then level into another thing once we reach the level it'll work at. Naturally, this means that the leveling experience might be a little more difficult for leveling certain builds that don't "come online" until level 20, 24, etc.

Mr. Electric, send him to the principal’s office and have him expelled!

To be clear, I'm never building to a spreadsheet. It's just not how I prefer to play. I mostly decide on each level, what my next level will be.

This is fine, of course, but when 5 levels after level X I realise build Y would be much better I relevel, even in the knowledge that, at level X, it would have been far more challenging.

This isn't a rule break, can't really even be one as is just so subjective, and certainly never pre-planned, but I'm well aware relevel both makes this approach easy and desirable, but also that it is widespread behaviour.

Free access to relevels makes the game far less challenging