Faerie Fire and Headband of Protection

[Kythana]

So recently, an update came out that specified the following:

Faerie Fire: No longer ignores Spell Immunity and Spell Mantles, only Spell Resistance.

Additionally, Headband of Protection, specifies:

Immunity: Spells by Level (Level 1 or Lower)

What this means is that, if you are using a Headband of Protection, (which you likely already were, it's the optimal choice for most builds.), then you are immune to Faerie Fire.

And that means that displacement(50% concealment) cannot be removed by any build that cannot dispel. This is a supreme nerf to martial builds, and I'm not sure why this just randomly came in as a "minor fix".

Can some reasoning be had for why this was changed, and what, if anything is going to be done to alleviate the, 'You're now actively trolling yourself if you're not using Headband' problem? Previously builds with innate SR could get away with not using it, but now everyone wants one if you ever engage in pvp at all.

And faerie fire is now effectively useless at the high end.

[Svrtr]

I agree with this sentiment that what is listed as a bug change does fundamentally change the mechanical purpose of the spell. This begs a couple questions in my mind

1) Should displacement be able to be brewed? Making it unbrewable would most notably hurt mundies, while the spell still exists on spellsword and now harbinger who thus could both extend it (albeit realistically harbinger won't generally have extend)

2) This further begs the question of if the HoP should have immunity to level 1 and lower spells. To my knowledge its intent was largely due to balagarn's iron horn potions, but if I understand right and from what I have heard from others it doesn't block bard balagarn's, and further means other players are immune to cantrips which is a big hamper on the purpose of cantrips when it comes to a PvP setting

3) I am a sucker for having neat categorization, and enjoyed the idea of traditional arcane caster builds having mords and timestop (wiz and sorc and TECHNICALLY SS), divine having WoF (Fvs and cleric), and nature having their own unique spell in faerie fire. Of these, SS had mords, timestop, and faerie fire. Mords and timestop are albeit altered, but it still seems strange that SS has faerie fire when only druid and shaman otherwise have it, with even ranger not having faerie fire. I am admittedly of the mind this change isn't necessary if SS loses faerie fire, but likewise that SS should lose FF and FF should remain a nature caster spell. Similarly, faerie fire could not be put on a wand but could be put on a scroll, which I feel is not a consistent logic, one made worse by the fact SS gets scribe scroll for free and wizard does not even get faerie fire as a spell, meaning SS can uniquely scribe faerie fire and do so without a feat tax where druid and shaman don't get scribe for free

So ultimately I think this change is taking a hammer to a chisel when the problem was a nail, and would wonder if there are further plans to come

[Yvesza]

A bug fix that does kinda fundamentally change balance, not a bad thing but it does make Headband of Protection even better than it already was/is.

I do think there should be a debate on headband of protection following in the wake of this, should it really stop all spells of 1 and lower?

[perseid]

Not to comment on whether it tips the scales in any particular direction, but while it does increase the value of the HoP I'd point out that it also increases the value of Predator since to my knowledge the concealment of Predator is still attached to its movement speed aspects so FF is an unblockable Predator removal otherwise.

[Coolguy McMagic]

2) This further begs the question of if the HoP should have immunity to level 1 and lower spells. To my knowledge its intent was largely due to balagarn's iron horn potions, but if I understand right and from what I have heard from others it doesn't block bard balagarn's, and further means other players are immune to cantrips which is a big hamper on the purpose of cantrips when it comes to a PvP setting

Iron Horn has an innate level of 2, meaning that the Spell Immunity does not block these potions. Bards have Iron Horn as a level 1 spell, so an Iron Horn cast by a bard specifically would be blocked by HoP.

Of course, the Spell Resistance still blocks Iron Horn potions, unless the SR was lowered with a breach before. This seems to be a common strategy against non-Strength builds in PVP - hit them with mords and then just spam Iron Horn until they get unlucky.

I'm all for removing Spell Immunity from HoP (see my previous thread on the matter). If Iron Horn is so oppressive that we need an item that is essentially Best-in-Slot for a large chunk of builds to block it (and coincidentally nerf a bunch of other builds by doing so) maybe the problem lies with the individual spell instead.

[AstralUniverse]

There's a bit of a general misconception about Innate level.

Innate level alone decides whether a spell is blocked by Headband, or Globe, etc.

Innate level does not differ between classes, only the spell level in their spellbook differs sometimes.

(The spell level in the spellbook decides the bonus to DC the spell has from it's spell level, but that does not matter vs spell immunity.)

Balagrn's Innate level is 2, and the only reason Headband is good vs balagrn's Potions is the SR blocking it, not the spell immunity. Therefore, high CL Balagn from a spellbook will always go through the Headband.

And on the topic of mundanes getting nerfed here? Good. All casters have eaten severe nerfs to their pvp and pve power within the past few months (except some divine casters who were subpar previously anyway) and currently I cannot imagine playing something without whirlwind so I'm cool with that.

[Coolguy McMagic]

There's a bit of a general misconception about Innate level.

Innate level alone decides whether a spell is blocked by Headband, or Globe, etc.

Innate level does not differ between classes, only the spell level in their spellbook differs sometimes.

(The spell level in the spellbook decides the bonus to DC the spell has from it's spell level, but that does not matter vs spell immunity.)

Balagrn's Innate level is 2, and the only reason Headband is good vs balagrn's Potions is the SR blocking it, not the spell immunity. Therefore, high CL Balagn from a spellbook will always go through the Headband.

And on the topic of mundanes getting nerfed here? Good. All casters have eaten severe nerfs to their pvp and pve power within the past few months (except some divine casters who were subpar previously anyway) and currently I cannot imagine playing something without whirlwind so I'm cool with that.

Good to know, thanks for the clarification.

I still think it's time for the spell immunity from HoP to go away. Yes, casters have been nerfed a lot but clearly some martials are struggling more than others. Also the relation between FF and concealment was at least interactive - there was counterplay between applying and removing it, and you had to decide whether or not it was a good idea at any given time to waste a scroll/spell/potion on using either. Now it's just another blanket immunity, removing choices from every build.

[Naiinara]

There's a bit of a general misconception about Innate level.

Innate level alone decides whether a spell is blocked by Headband, or Globe, etc.

Innate level does not differ between classes, only the spell level in their spellbook differs sometimes.

(The spell level in the spellbook decides the bonus to DC the spell has from it's spell level, but that does not matter vs spell immunity.)

Balagrn's Innate level is 2, and the only reason Headband is good vs balagrn's Potions is the SR blocking it, not the spell immunity. Therefore, high CL Balagn from a spellbook will always go through the Headband.

That's not correct. The level the spell is at in your character's spell book determines whether or not spell immunity works. Bard iron horn is blocked due to it being a first level spell for bards. You can check this by using ghostly visage.

Same thing applies to druid ice storm. Since it is level 5 in a druid spell book it also bypasses globe of invulnerability, even though the innate level of the spell is 4.

[Svrtr]

There's a bit of a general misconception about Innate level.

Innate level alone decides whether a spell is blocked by Headband, or Globe, etc.

Innate level does not differ between classes, only the spell level in their spellbook differs sometimes.

(The spell level in the spellbook decides the bonus to DC the spell has from it's spell level, but that does not matter vs spell immunity.)

Balagrn's Innate level is 2, and the only reason Headband is good vs balagrn's Potions is the SR blocking it, not the spell immunity. Therefore, high CL Balagn from a spellbook will always go through the Headband.

And on the topic of mundanes getting nerfed here? Good. All casters have eaten severe nerfs to their pvp and pve power within the past few months (except some divine casters who were subpar previously anyway) and currently I cannot imagine playing something without whirlwind so I'm cool with that.

If this doesn't work so I'm posting from my phone? Here is the direct link

https://i.imgur.com/JDJ9dBL.png

This was tested just in the last half hour on the pgcc

[AstralUniverse]

Ok thanks for the correction. I was either lied to or just recalled incorrectly after many years.

[Naghast]

I believe spell's innate level applies to wands and potions for spell immunity tho.