There's too Many UD Portal Exceptions

[perseid]

This might just be my personal feeling but it's been on my mind for awhile. But between Imaskari, Shadovar, Gloamings, former slave background starts, and all the ones that came before them like Duergar, Svirfs, etc. I feel like there's too many races with UD portal access for the limitation to be actually meaningful at this point. I don't know what the solution is but it seems weird the UD supposedly has these limits to prevent things like people from the surface just suddenly showing up when that's basically the norm now without even needing to spend a 5% award.

[Naghast]

There's also many portals hidden in ud, even really close to (or just straight up inside) Andunor, that do not have such restrictions.

[perseid]

There's also many portals hidden in ud, even really close to (or just straight up inside) Andunor, that do not have such restrictions.

This one I'm less passionate on since some of those are there for people from out of town. But the hub portal specifically (and some of the others like the Ogrefist) were supposedly altered to help keep the vibe in the UD leaning towards locals a bit while also hedging against things like pvp crowds just suddenly manifesting in the hub. Whereas the current state of things, without calling out any specific players, has felt like the hub is really just a free-for-all between locals and surface allies and I think the biggest contributing factor to this has been the propagation of more and more neutral races with portal access. As far as I can tell portal access also means you're allowed to own property in the UD as well so it's hard to even say it's confusing when a lot of these races boil down to "Default human but better and with wider content access."

[Dreams]

This might just be my personal feeling but it's been on my mind for awhile. But between Imaskari, Shadovar, Gloamings, former slave background starts, and all the ones that came before them like Duergar, Svirfs, etc. I feel like there's too many races with UD portal access for the limitation to be actually meaningful at this point.

All of those races ARE Underdark races. Shadovar are the only one you mentioned which is not specifically from the Underdark, but comes from a place of darkness and has a lot of commonality. Isn't the problem more about who is hanging around rather than who has access?

e.g. What if there was a human character who hung around the Hub all the time, knew UD, was a pirate, known badguy stuff, what's the problem with them being there in a trade hub that is by design open to all of these races? Maybe it feels like an easy jump to then go and say "And that's why I think my character should be given Hub portal access".

[perseid]

This might just be my personal feeling but it's been on my mind for awhile. But between Imaskari, Shadovar, Gloamings, former slave background starts, and all the ones that came before them like Duergar, Svirfs, etc. I feel like there's too many races with UD portal access for the limitation to be actually meaningful at this point.

All of those races ARE Underdark races. Shadovar are the only one you mentioned which is not specifically from the Underdark, but comes from a place of darkness and has a lot of commonality. Isn't the problem more about who is hanging around rather than who has access?

e.g. What if there was a human character who hung around the Hub all the time, knew UD, was a pirate, known badguy stuff, what's the problem with them being there in a trade hub that is by design open to all of these races? Maybe it feels like an easy jump to then go and say "And that's why I think my character should be given Hub portal access".

Gloamings are more common on the surface right now than the UD and they like the Imaskari and the Shadovar can own property on the surface and in the UD as far as I'm aware and so while it's a perfectly fine lore point to say "They belong there according to the lore" I don't think it holds water in this context given that the portal restrictions are arbitrary and more about balancing the social environment of the UD on Arelith. Right now the state of that balance is that you have a gajillion characters that are effectively surface characters with portal access because the awards are so easily obtained and the options for spending them on high-accessibility races so conveniently varied.

The pirate example similarly is weird to me because I play a pirate who's a known badguy and who spends a lot of time in the hub. I still wouldn't advocate him having portal access because I don't think it would have a positive impact on immersion in the underdark to streamline the way for characters like him in the same way I don't think the current abundance of inbetweener races is actually good for the state of the underdark. Though all that being said I'd also highlight that you're conflating portal access with being allowed in a place which is a different matter.

[Dreams]

Who do you think SHOULD have access to the portal if not UD races?

[perseid]

Who do you think SHOULD have access to the portal if not UD races?

I don't especially care and it's also not material to the point I was making that you've dodged twice now. Regardless of which races have access, my point is that currently there's too many of the mechanical inbetweener races. Cutting down the number in the rotation or raising the reward tiers would solve the issue just as effectively as cutting off their portal access since as I said in my initial post I think the issue is that there's so many in general that it's become a bit of a waste of time to make a distinction between surface characters and UD characters.

[Dreams]

It seems like you care enough to make a topic like this and then say I'm dodging your points when I'm responding to what you've said directly, then refused to answer the most basic question in response. The title is "There's too Many UD Portal Exceptions" and what you listed were all Underdark races + one very appropriate human subrace. What's the actual problem you have?

[perseid]

It seems like you care enough to make a topic like this and then say I'm dodging your points when I'm responding to what you've said directly, then refused to answer the most basic question in response. The title is "There's too Many UD Portal Exceptions" and what you listed were all Underdark races + one very appropriate human subrace. What's the actual problem you have?

I feel like I answered it fairly clearly? You asked who specifically I felt should have access when my point was never about any specific group having access being a problem. Despite that I answered that my point was never about any one specific race but rather the variety of portal attuned races with surface access that has accrued. The problem is that there's a million races with access right now that are also surface-legal which is leading to a situation where there's not really any reason to bother policing the UD anymore and by extension it makes having the restrictions on the portals at all a bit ridiculous because it undermines the point of the restrictions in the first place if there's going to be a bunch of what are effectively surface characters coming and going through them anyway. This has additional side effects such as exacerbating the Andunorian housing crisis because you have surge in characters who are effectively surface or surface-hybrid characters with options across the entire server competing with characters who can only own property in places like Andunor or the wilds.

[Shadowy Reality]

Portal mechanical limitation should not be your guiding light to police the UD.
This is a sandbox, you can police whatever you want, you can police the Drow out of the Underdark if you want, nothing stops you. In the Hub? You can't police that much, it is under the Hubmaster's control, with some leeway for lynching mobs.

All of those races should have access to the UD. Are some members of those races actually living in the Surface but still visiting the Hub? Maybe then you can question them individually about their allegiances, it would make sense.

[Anomandaris]

Who do you think SHOULD have access to the portal if not UD races?

I don't especially care and it's also not material to the point I was making that you've dodged twice now. Regardless of which races have access, my point is that currently there's too many of the mechanical inbetweener races. Cutting down the number in the rotation or raising the reward tiers would solve the issue just as effectively as cutting off their portal access since as I said in my initial post I think the issue is that there's so many in general that it's become a bit of a waste of time to make a distinction between surface characters and UD characters.

Shadovar award tier was recently increased to Greater.
Imasakari is already a Greater award.
Gloaming is already a Greater award.

Duergar and Svirfneblin are literally canonically UD races. I'm confused about which precisely is the problem then?

Keep in mind any race like Shadovar that can own property in both and has access to surface and UD portals, do pay for it in terms of dealing with metagaming and hostile/suspicious RP based on the other "attributes" of that race (religion, alignment etc). Having that flexibility is a double edged sword because some will USE it irresponsibly and cause issues for other members of the race. It's all part of the RP

And as others have said, "use of portal" has been a poor litmust test for a long time, and was always kind of a lazy cheezy way to police local status.

Why couldn't my genius wizard "Crack" the code if some schmuck of a hub employee can give access to every new outcast that joins up with Andunor? Conceivably there's some way to work around it? So it also makes sense IC that races like Imaskari and Shadovar, who are ancient masters of the arcane, would have a few tricks as well.

[Subtext]

Tell me you want Andunor to be a drow city without telling me you want Andunor to be a drow city.

[ThisIsNotADrill]

I want Andunor to be a drow city with a highly cosmopolitan trade quarter that lets anybody in because money and goods.

[Ruzuke]

Using normal D&D rules (3.0 and 3.5) divination magic (scrying) and teleportation did not work reliable in the Underdark due to the faezrness. I would personally be okay with removing the teleports there and adding in caravans moving between the trade posts, cities, along with the boats. Then removing the ability to scry on people down below.

For the UD portal exceptions, I would unlock them. If people break the rules of teleporting them and killing everyone. I would report them to the DM team who could take the proper actions against the problem players. Hopefully fostering while ICly our characters hate each other we as players are building a story together.

I would also entice all those UD portal exceptions to be my surface spies. Fund all the Shavador, Gloaming, Deep Gnomes, and Deep Drwaves into a voting block. Subert a city's politics. Get them to provide trade goods you don't have access to down below. Have them build a base outside for you in Crow's Nest (take over the half-orc camp) expand to Siyabad.

[Itikar]

Or more simply, make UD races that also have access to the surface have Hub portal access only if they are registered in Andunor as citizens, or if they are below a certain level (so likely not ready to register, level 15 seems a good cutoff).

It's clear that the Hub portal is meant for residents, so if you are Imaskari or gloaming but live in Cordor, or if you are a "surface svirfneblin", well, too bad, come to the Hub through a portal a little away from it.

What is important, I think, is whether we can restrict portal access to people who have already unlocked the portal, or whether such systems are feasible to implement. It's hard to say, but I am inclined to think it's complex.

As for the Ogre Fist, I don't understand why it is restricted when Saltspar is not. Frankly I would make the Ogre Fist portal open to all. The place does not have traffic to guarantee UD exclusivity, and in fact, it seems a trade post with shops, that could be visited from surfacers coming to shop without issue.

The other restricted portal is the Treadstone, but I think that would make more sense to be like the Hub portal, even if it has less traffic, due to the peculiarities of the area.

That said, I do not think that the problem is specific to races per se and their numbers. Gloamings that live in the Underdark are more than welcome in Andunor, and so are Imaskari, Deep Gnomes, Duergar, etc. They are part of the setting. What, however, we do not need, are Underdark races that play on the surface, especially when the lore of most of them does not involve much interest in the surface to begin with. Play a surface race if you want to spend 99% of your time on the surface. It's just a matter of consistency of the setting.

Shadovar should not have UD portal access unless they are outcasts or slaves, or citizens of a District.

Overall, however, the problematic raised by OP is something I find pertinent. Given the current restrictive division between UD and surface, an abundance of characters that cheat through it creates more consistency issues than opportunities. On the other hand, I feel like that it should be easier for a surface character to mechanically acquire UD access and "naturalization", and not just slavery or long application processes. Skullport as a setting has multiple halflings, dwarves, elves, humans, and I feel Andunor could use more outcasts of these races, than one in a RL year. Even Menzoberranzan in the lore has halfling, dwarf and human free residents.

[Ruzuke]

Or more simply, make UD races that also have access to the surface have Hub portal access only if they are registered in Andunor as citizens, or if they are below a certain level (so likely not ready to register, level 15 seems a good cutoff).

It's clear that the Hub portal is meant for residents, so if you are Imaskari or gloaming but live in Cordor, or if you are a "surface svirfneblin", well, too bad, come to the Hub through a portal a little away from it.

What is important, I think, is whether we can restrict portal access to people who have already unlocked the portal, or whether such systems are feasible to implement. It's hard to say, but I am inclined to think it's complex.

As for the Ogre Fist, I don't understand why it is restricted when Saltspar is not. Frankly I would make the Ogre Fist portal open to all. The place does not have traffic to guarantee UD exclusivity, and in fact, it seems a trade post with shops, that could be visited from surfacers coming to shop without issue.

The other restricted portal is the Treadstone, but I think that would make more sense to be like the Hub portal, even if it has less traffic, due to the peculiarities of the area.

That said, I do not think that the problem is specific to races per se and their numbers. Gloamings that live in the Underdark are more than welcome in Andunor, and so are Imaskari, Deep Gnomes, Duergar, etc. They are part of the setting. What, however, we do not need, are Underdark races that play on the surface, especially when the lore of most of them does not involve much interest in the surface to begin with. Play a surface race if you want to spend 99% of your time on the surface. It's just a matter of consistency of the setting.

Shadovar should not have UD portal access unless they are outcasts or slaves, or citizens of a District.

Overall, however, the problematic raised by OP is something I find pertinent. Given the current restrictive division between UD and surface, an abundance of characters that cheat through it creates more consistency issues than opportunities. On the other hand, I feel like that it should be easier for a surface character to mechanically acquire UD access and "naturalization", and not just slavery or long application processes. Skullport as a setting has multiple halflings, dwarves, elves, humans, and I feel Andunor could use more outcasts of these races, than one in a RL year. Even Menzoberranzan in the lore has halfling, dwarf and human free residents.

The setting has changed. My Kobold's starting city was Cordor. There was a few times after the change when Gnolls, Ogres, and goblins, and Kobolds were forced to live in the UD the game glitched and my Kobold kept loading into his home city. A few PCs gave my char portal lenses so he could teleport to the underdark.

The portals which are restricted now used to not be. A small group of players used it to teleport in and kill people. My belief people who take such actions is an obvious warning sign and to remove the problem players.

Over the past few years one thing which has remained consistent is staff stating that the Undercity needs trade for the surface to survive. This typically in response to saying kick all the humans out of the hub. If we want to stick to the setting, gnolls, goblins, orcs, ogres, are not underdark races. Gloaming hate drow (you know what you did). There is zero reason why in the forgotten realm settings why all these races would live with one another.

[Itikar]

Kobolds are not an Underdark race. They could go to the surface for all I care. The remaining ones are capable of coexisting in trade cities like Skullport or Mantol Derith or even in places such as Sshamath. So the basis in the lore is pretty much there.

[Naghast]

A reminder that there is an unrestricted portal hidden literally inside Andunor that anyone who wants to kill ppl there can just use.

[D4wN]

I mean, no Surface portals are restricted to "surface" race at all. So I'm unsure if the underlying issue really is that too many people can attune to UD portals. Andunor Hub is supposed to be a trade centre so I would assume the Hubmaster wouldn't want to restrict access beyond what it is now.

Anyone in their right mind who knows they shouldn't be in Andunor, won't be portalling into the Hub anyway. And if they do and attack it's a quick DM report. On the Surface we have tons of portals that are right next to (or sometimes even -in-) Surface settlements anyone can attune to as well and I know that if people started abusing that for PVP, it would get addressed.

[CNS]

Just felt the need to point out Imaskari and Shadowvar are human

[Anomandaris]

Or more simply, make UD races that also have access to the surface have Hub portal access only if they are registered in Andunor as citizens, or if they are below a certain level (so likely not ready to register, level 15 seems a good cutoff).

It's clear that the Hub portal is meant for residents, so if you are Imaskari or gloaming but live in Cordor, or if you are a "surface svirfneblin", well, too bad, come to the Hub through a portal a little away from it.

What is important, I think, is whether we can restrict portal access to people who have already unlocked the portal, or whether such systems are feasible to implement. It's hard to say, but I am inclined to think it's complex.

As for the Ogre Fist, I don't understand why it is restricted when Saltspar is not. Frankly I would make the Ogre Fist portal open to all. The place does not have traffic to guarantee UD exclusivity, and in fact, it seems a trade post with shops, that could be visited from surfacers coming to shop without issue.

The other restricted portal is the Treadstone, but I think that would make more sense to be like the Hub portal, even if it has less traffic, due to the peculiarities of the area.

That said, I do not think that the problem is specific to races per se and their numbers. Gloamings that live in the Underdark are more than welcome in Andunor, and so are Imaskari, Deep Gnomes, Duergar, etc. They are part of the setting. What, however, we do not need, are Underdark races that play on the surface, especially when the lore of most of them does not involve much interest in the surface to begin with. Play a surface race if you want to spend 99% of your time on the surface. It's just a matter of consistency of the setting.

Shadovar should not have UD portal access unless they are outcasts or slaves, or citizens of a District.

Overall, however, the problematic raised by OP is something I find pertinent. Given the current restrictive division between UD and surface, an abundance of characters that cheat through it creates more consistency issues than opportunities. On the other hand, I feel like that it should be easier for a surface character to mechanically acquire UD access and "naturalization", and not just slavery or long application processes. Skullport as a setting has multiple halflings, dwarves, elves, humans, and I feel Andunor could use more outcasts of these races, than one in a RL year. Even Menzoberranzan in the lore has halfling, dwarf and human free residents.

No settlement's portals operate this way. It would be a decided change from the current server design. I don't think the approach should be to create more barriers for interaction and RP between different cohorts, but the inverse.

Additionally forcing people to use the citizen mechanic would be extremely tedious for a number of reasons. Not to mention there are plenty of IC reasons why someone might be "loyal to Andunor" but not want to put their name down as a voting citizen of any district.

The big problem is it proposes using a mechanic to identify and enforce who's "allowed" to be there, as opposed to RP. I don't think that's a direction we want to go. Not to mention I could just as easily become a citizen of a settlement to get access to the portal and actively work against the city or its other districts.

Make my svirf have a tedious walk because he's been deemed a "surface Svirf" by some cohort (which could just be slander and lies)? No thank you.

[Itikar]

The big problem is it proposes using a mechanic to identify and enforce who's "allowed" to be there, as opposed to RP. I don't think that's a direction we want to go.

Like it or not, this is simply the current way toward which things tend. Otherwise portals would not be restricted in the first place, access to some facilities would not be tied to citizenship, or shop bidding would not have been tied to citizenship just this recently.

[AstralUniverse]

Just felt the need to point out Imaskari and Shadowvar are human

Just felt the need to point out that Drow are Elves.

[Eyeliner]

The Hub portal limitation prevents surface gank squads from showing up to wipe everyone out. That's its one job and it does it well. I don't think it's ever meant to tightly control who belongs and doesn't. Yeah some races can play both sides, but Arelith isn't Horde Vs Alliance and that grey area is a good thing. The powers that be on either side don't have to trust them.

[CNS]

Just felt the need to point out Imaskari and Shadowvar are human

Just felt the need to point out that Drow are Elves.

Shocking if true