Arelith

I believe its too fast. I think the solution though is to make PVE harder across the board to effectively adjust the rate (rather than changing xp gains).

At the moment though IMO PVE all the way to 30 is just too easy to solo for too many people. Groups are unnecessary for almost all content so people speed level alone. Making PVE harder across the board would not only slow down levelling, it would encourage RP, make obtaining high level a real sense of achievement and also normalise the economy as solo rune/addy grinding slows down.

High levels should also not be able to assist low levels through writs either like it used to be, although given how easy most PVE is to solo at level anyway im not sure this is currently that much of a problem (but it would be if PVE gets harder).

Slower leveling doesn't increase or decrease rp any more or less than the other half-dozen contentious topics that have come up recently.

All slower leveling does is make you repeat leveling content.

As a casual with not a lot of playtime I think leveling is still way too fast for the server's long-term health.

Every time I log in after a week of work most characters I saw the weekend before are gone.

I really like to maximize the amount of characters I interact with, but right now it feels that so many characters have the lifetime of a gnat and are simply not worth the limited time and effort to establish any worthwhile story longer than a single interaction.

I have no idea if this has to do with leveling speed or just the prevailing gaming culture of easy instant gratification and perpetual 'meta' shifting.

As arelith player numbers continue to rise it seems like the server (only sometimes) has never been more empty as RP revolves more and more around items, writs, and resources needed to level or gear up instead of abstract character building and storytelling.

Well, I think the epic sacrifice system is to blame for that too. I am not saying get rid of it but it would probably be good for the server if there was a waiting period to use it and we were encouraged to give characters more of a chance instead of cashing in as soon as we're mildly dissatisfied or had an RP setback.

Love it and hate it at the same time.

I like not being behind too far behind and progress is very nice! But it also feels cheap. But not all my characters are a “hit” so it’s nice not to feel the need to keep playing a 6mo character (which would be more like 1mo). I also don’t have much time to play at the moment, so faster is better.

I don’t do any kind of rebuilds regardless of how anything would affect my build, as Kenji said, most people blow the “broke my character!!” Thing way out of the water. So that affect my opinion.

Boiling all that down, my feeling is that it is still about 3x too fast.

I enjoy it. I played for years, and never really got to experience high-level content, purely because I tended to level so agonisingly slowly. It's nice to feel like my characters get to be mechanically complete. Particularly since my preference runs towards gimmicky support builds that I often struggled to level effectively on my timezone.

I do feel that the reward system is showing its age a little though, in terms of the rate majors and greaters are churned out. I saw, perhaps, one RDD on the surface in my first few years of playing, and it was a special, noteworthy thing. That's not to say the higher turnover is bad! More folks getting chances to play their long-held concepts naturally means you're going to see of everything, but it's certainly different.

As a player who's been around since long before writs existed, to me it feels like the server is getting closer and closer to a Fixed Level concept, where everyone is level 30 and what mostly differentiates characters mechanically is how much they've grinded gold in the form of gear and consumables.

So, to answer the original question: Yes, the rate of levelling / exp gain is currently insanely fast compared to what it used to be. Should it be changed back? Well, that depends on whether we're done with the big 'Balance Adjustments' yet.

Is the current state of the server considered stable yet? Then I would make levelling much harder so that having a level 30 would be an actual investment.

Are many more 'Balance Adjustments' expected to come? Then I would leave levelling as it is and let players 'Beta Test' any new (and potentially broken) or even existing classes / races / items without much time investment on their part.

The thing here is, if players currently 'roll and start over' after each adjustment, they would 'roll and quit' instead if they spent a year grinding up a character to 30 only to see it suddenly changed. This is regardless of how big or small an adjustment may be, as players feel strongly about what they initially had in mind when they started building a character. At least, this is my view of it.

All in all, despite having it for a fact that the levelling rate is incredibly fast, I would probably keep it as it is, in order to avoid seeing declining player numbers after each update. This is perhaps something to consider once we're on a more stable state.

Really interesting feedback, and much appreciated.

Despite personally voting for the 'too fast' option, I should make clear, as I have elsewhere, that I currently have no intention lowering the rate, however I am looking at some concrete options for those who prefer a different experience.

While I was pretty convinced the majority are satisfied with the current rate (or would prefer it was even faster) I was surprised by the size of the minority who feel as I do.

It's always worth remembering that the sample size on the forums is very small - we have approximately 2000 regular players and only (at the current time) a little over 70 votes here. In my experience the bulk of those not using the forums are more casual players, who I suspect would also lean heavily towards a preference for faster levelling.

Do please keep the feedback (and votes!) coming, as we do not wish to leave those currently dissatisfied players out in the cold.

Irongron wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:55 am

Do please keep the feedback (and votes!) coming, as we do not wish to leave those currently dissatisfied players out in the cold.

I know this is treading dangerously close to suggestion territory but has it ever been considered to give players the option to take a massive EXP penalty (I am not talking ECL but instead an actual minus percentage of total EXP earned) in exchange for maybe a bonus to the chance of receiving a higher tier reward after rolling that character?

That could help out with characters appearing and disappearing too quickly.

There will always be some people who will grind their little hearts out to reach 30 (or, frankly, 26) as fast as possible no matter what, because that's how they want to play the game. No matter what system you devise to try and discourage it, someone will figure out a way to powerlevel (just like how someone will always figure out a way to find the most powerful build no matter how the meta shifts). And honestly? That's okay. There's a lot of different people playing on Arelith with their own goals and own playstyles and lifestyles, but they're ultimately here to have fun...whatever that means for them.

I would be really interested in someone posting a poll about how long their average character lasts and maybe start a discussion about the different playstyles and how to make them integrate well.

Speaking as someone who is a semi-infrequent, low amount of hours type player (due to work and family commitments) I personally feel it's a bit too fast is the levelling. Which might feel contrasting, as you'd probably imagine someone like me (who doesn't get much time to play) loves it how it is. Don't get me wrong, it's enjoyable and stuff, but a bit too geared towards an instant rush to hit level 30.

I recently made a new character on 14/2/22, so far I think I've played the character for about 5/6 hours spread over a few nights, and he's on the cusp of level 8. I can imagine if I carry on as I do, within a couple of weeks or so he'll be nearer to level 20 than anything else.

For me it just feels too rushed. There's not enough time to savour any development along the way with a characters level growth. If you aren't level 30, it feels like you're just being left behind and can't match up to everyone else, because it just feels like everyone else on the server is level 30. And it's just apparently true that "RP doesn't start till you hit level 30".

It's even the little things. I remember back in the ol' day when the server was "new" in 2005 or so, that you'd kind of find friends in game by virtue of prolonged exposure running into the same folks who'd started a character at the same time as you, and you'd keep bumping into each other as you level over the course of weeks and months. It'd be a great way to form some starting connections without any awkwardness, and a good way to test out how you want to RP your character.

Now, if you stay away for a week, and come back, the same people you may have met on the first writ's are now levels above and beyond you, moving in completely different worlds and circles. Not saying that it's an outright impossibility to still interact with folks and stuff with massive level disparities, but it doesn't foster proper long term connections.

The playing field just becomes too much about min-maxed power builds, too. In my opinion anyway. I know it's an old game, so there's bound to be an old contingent of players who are max level, but the sheer ease of getting to that landmark means that there's very few in-between characters cracking on with stuff. So, rather than being a higher level = stronger character, it now feels more about having to cheese game mechanics to actually stand out properly. Nothing wrong with it again, it's just a personal preference of mine that all stats and abilities should be RP'd to their max.

Even with only managing to play a few hours a few nights a week I wish the levelling was slow. Probably even the glacier level it was, it just felt you got to know your own character a lot more, and there actually was a different playing field across the characters on the server, instead of everyone just being level 30.

Kenji wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:19 pm

fulminea wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 17, 2022 8:59 am

But considering I have lost characters to over night nerfs this sort of mayfly character concept has perhaps become a necessity, at least this way you get to enjoy your fully geared level 30 char for a few weeks or even a handful of months before the next update cripples the build and you either quit or come up with something new.

I have talked to you extensively about your specific build and case (and many other players to assess the ripple effect of the changes). But when boiled down to the gist of your specific build:
It lost 1 perform rank, which meant your character could not perform songs at their highest rank without adjustments to gear - this could be rectified.

However, "losing" that character to "overnight nerfs" is your choice from that skewed perception.

The more I read about the feedback on those changes, the more I realized that (this is not just towards you, but in general, myself included, in fact) -
Player perception can be skewed to the point that a minor adjustment that is disadvantageous to their character's build may warrant a rebuild when it doesn't invalidate the build whatsoever. This kind of overreaction really should be addressed at some point.

If anyone would like to discuss more on this unless it pertains to the rate of level/xp gain, post it on in the feedback forums or contact me on Discord. I will be available for both when I have time.

I've lost a handful of characters very dear to me to nerfs. The character you are referring to I do not consider "lost", but I do understand that from your personal point of view that seems to refer to this character. That particular character was salvagable, I'm just not playing it due to her entire "community" rolling or disappearing after the nerfs to orog specific gear/classes and race probably added up to a signifant loss of powah. But the char itself is okay.

TheBlueWizard wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:00 pm

Everything TheBlueWizard said

All of that summarizes my own feelings perfectly and far more eloquently than I could manage.

Also as Manabi said in another post, I feel a lot less connection to my characters. The "growing" experience during leveling is where a character develops. That is where they have challenges they have to overcome by virtue of being weak and it shapes them. The struggle which is eased by finding others who will share it with you for days/weeks/months as your characters grow and become who they will end up being.

Some may argue this can be done at level 30, but mechanical gods do not have the same struggles and issues. They can still grow, but it is in a completely different way. This is not bad, but it does make for a huge and potentially diverse (and interesting and enjoyable to many players) avenue of RP to be mostly non-existent nowadays.

Griefmaker's Unasked for Suggestions to Possibly Fuel Thought

My policy in RL which I follow and have my employees and consultants also follow is to try and never just complain about something or say something is bad, but to offer suggestions on how to improve the issue one sees. You never know when inspiration will click on like a lightbulb. So here are some of my thoughts:

-The change to the "ticks" with xp and adventure xp (and even the creation and inclusion of AXP itself) are top notch and a truly wonderful change to the server.

-The change above already causes one to level as fast or faster than grinding 10-15 years ago (especially with the tick every 5 minutes instead of 6 minutes). I think this is awesome because it makes one not be mechanically penalized for RPing and does help increase the glacier pace of leveling from the past, especially if some adventuring/grinding is mixed in.

-I am one who believes the server's overall health and RP environment is better with a good mix of lowbies, middies, and epics and so would suggest slowing the leveling to 1/2 or even a 1/3 of what it is now. My personal thought is to lower the immediate earned xp and instead offer more adventure xp (this is for both killing things and writs). Grinders will still level faster as will those who can play many hours, but that is okay!

I am a "dirty casual" now and so this would hit me harder than others in regards to mechanical progression speed, but in my opinion, arelith is severely lacking early and mid-game RP and "life". Everything is focused for endgame, because that is where most characters are at after 3-4 weeks of life and for a surprisingly large number of players, being at level 30 is boring. Early and mid-game life is over in a few weeks. This is a shame, because my opinion is that is where characters truly grow both mechanically and in an RP sense.

Overall though, Arelith is a ton of fun and the admin/devs/DMs continue to a great job with breathing life into this old game. It is easy to be an armchair quarterback and toss off suggestions as compared to being in the weeds and trying to actually make everything work, so even when offering constructive criticism, I want to highlight my respect and kudos for all of their work.

Just my two cents on the matter. Leveling speed is totally fine.

As a person who absolutely despises grinding, I can say that it is not hard to achieve high levels (especially with the writ "buff"). I've also seen some comments about being low level and not being able to engage in settlements and heavy RP.
When I played Arnbjorn Thorgeirsson, I was Guard Captain by level 15, and Trade Minister by level 18-19. Then Warden of Guldorand from about 21-26 when I rolled, never 30.
Saabir el-Nasr was Guldorand's Ambassador at level 12, with a profitable shop.
Ulfric Stormbender has been causing mayhem since level 12ish.
Vizaron has 5 pvp kills (I didn't engage, they called me cow) by level 10.

However, I do not want to see leveling speed slowed down. This will just make it easier for those who are level 30 to dominate in PvP. and will make leveling up by the new writ system (immediate xp once per writ) soooo much harder.

TheBlueWizard wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:00 pm

Now, if you stay away for a week, and come back, the same people you may have met on the first writ's are now levels above and beyond you, moving in completely different worlds and circles. Not saying that it's an outright impossibility to still interact with folks and stuff with massive level disparities, but it doesn't foster proper long term connections.

I think the point about min-max powerbuilds is moot but this right here is basically the reason why I think the current leveling speed is insane. I've gone with another player on a writ where I've basically been the fifth wheel. Rather useless and very underleveled (in fact I could not even take the writ, I was there to serve as an extra pack mule for the loot) but about a week later we met again and I've overtaken that player in levels, exactly as you described there. How? I've played every day within that time and did my writs while he was inactive.

Irongron wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:55 am

It's always worth remembering that the sample size on the forums is very small - we have approximately 2000 regular players and only (at the current time) a little over 70 votes here. In my experience the bulk of those not using the forums are more casual players, who I suspect would also lean heavily towards a preference for faster levelling.

I'm really glad you said this because opinions around here usually seem to skew towards "things are horrible" and "make Arelith the way it used to be". These forums tend to be a smaller, more conservative (in game terms, not making judgements about politically) and much more negative-minded crowd where the sky is always falling.

While it's always good to have open lines of feedback I hope this poll isn't taken as a true measure of community opinion by anyone. I think you'd at +least+ have to reach out to Discord too.

Duchess Says wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:56 pm

Irongron wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:55 am

It's always worth remembering that the sample size on the forums is very small - we have approximately 2000 regular players and only (at the current time) a little over 70 votes here. In my experience the bulk of those not using the forums are more casual players, who I suspect would also lean heavily towards a preference for faster levelling.

I'm really glad you said this because opinions around here usually seem to skew towards "things are horrible" and "make Arelith the way it used to be". These forums tend to be a smaller, more conservative (in game terms, not making judgements about politically) and much more negative-minded crowd where the sky is always falling.

While it's always good to have open lines of feedback I hope this poll isn't taken as a true measure of community opinion by anyone. I think you'd at +least+ have to reach out to Discord too.

I would go as far as to have a message saying "We are running polls over the next few weeks about several key factors of the server if you want to join the conversation" followed by forum account set up advice. And I would use that window to add a few more polls like this. Because while you can certainly make the case that its logical for more casual players to want to level up fast as Irongron did, someone said something that made a lot of sense on discord earlier as well; There are people that avoid the forums and discord because they don't like the ooc bits. I'm not convinced that every one of these sorts fall under the "wants fast leveling" umbrella. That being said, as is I would not be surprised if this poll was well on its way to 250-300 votes by the time the weekend is over, and thats a pretty solid sample size. While forum posters like me may be more dramatic than the casual player, we clearly don't all see eye to eye or there wouldn't be so many silly arguments. There is probably the same level of diversity one could expect from everyone else.

jomonog wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:55 pm

I believe its too fast. I think the solution though is to make PVE harder across the board to effectively adjust the rate (rather than changing xp gains).

At the moment though IMO PVE all the way to 30 is just too easy to solo for too many people. Groups are unnecessary for almost all content so people speed level alone. Making PVE harder across the board would not only slow down levelling, it would encourage RP, make obtaining high level a real sense of achievement and also normalise the economy as solo rune/addy grinding slows down.

High levels should also not be able to assist low levels through writs either like it used to be, although given how easy most PVE is to solo at level anyway im not sure this is currently that much of a problem (but it would be if PVE gets harder).

Although I agree that pve isn't that hard as of now - locking leveling behind the need of a group would punish everyone who play at scarce timezones, and players with little time available. They would be stuck waiting on finding a squad everytime they play before they progress.

The system of half the writ rewards being delayed xp - is really clever. It was a surprise to me to receive 1000xp and 1000 delayed xp. There is reason to faff around - waiting for the delayed xp to arrive. And i think it is clever because it encourages people to faff around giving more opportunties for RP

I'm of two minds about this. I'm rather new to the server. I have rolled exactly one character, and currently playing another at 30, and have a slew of level 10-15 characters from when I was just getting into NWN/Arelith. Reading the comments here tells me there was a time when the arduous leveling process resulted in long-standing character relations and being integrated with a faction and its storyline. I've just got to say that that's also very much the case today from my experience - albeit more tilted towards post-30 than before. For me, that's fine! I am very task-oriented, and while there's leveling to be done I'd rather be out gutting goblins than chatting in a bar. There's a reason why I'm playing an adventurer in the Forgotten Realms after all.

One thing though, is that I feel the quicker leveling pace interacts with the reward system in a slightly unfortunate way. A level 30 character is not only a story to be told, it's also a currency. With very slow leveling that sacrifice is going to come with considerable weight in time invested and ongoing storylines going down the drain. Now however, it's easy to consider leveling merely a time-gate to rewards. I have to admit I'm leveling an alt with little interest in any long-winded character narrative, I just want a reward so I can play the concept I want to.

My admittedly very small 2 cents being a new player and all, is that perhaps the reward system is due for an update? I get that it's very important to keep the server population and faction/narrative from stagnating, but that's hardly the problem we're currently having based on my reading and experience. If rewards were for instance given based on certain character accomplishments, it would encourage lengthy level 30 play.

Just spitballing here
Minor reward: Reach level 30
Normal: Complete 3 different runic dungeons
Greater: Complete all runic dungeons
Major: Complete all epic dungeons + something RP related (but not requiring DM attention) if possible

No need to roll, you just have to spend some time playing on the server rather than hitting 26 and then -delete_character x2. I'm sure there's players who don't want to run runic dungeons but are happy playing a city official before rolling, so I'm not saying "this is the way" - I just think that a level 30 being a currency adds to the issue of quick leveling/low RP effort.

fulminea wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:17 pm

I've lost a handful of characters very dear to me to nerfs. The character you are referring to I do not consider "lost", but I do understand that from your personal point of view that seems to refer to this character. That particular character was salvagable, I'm just not playing it due to her entire "community" rolling or disappearing after the nerfs to orog specific gear/classes and race probably added up to a signifant loss of powah. But the char itself is okay.

The point remains:
Those characters are lost as a personal choice in the end unless you can answer a later question with a “No”. (See the bullet points below)

I don’t mean to sound callous, but this is also a large overreaction to the Orog community’s part that points out the need to address this even more.

The majority (not all) of the Orog builds lost 2 AC, 1 uni save, and 1 dmg but gained 30hp from the adjustment - very much justified. Two specific types of build lost something slightly more:
- 24 Str/Cha CoT Orog smiter builds: had to become 22/24 split, so it lost 1 more AB and dmg
- Cha caster such as FS or Sorc: lost 1 DC if it doesn’t have between 12 to 14 str at start. They get grandfathered otherwise

But at no point does any of the changes invalidate any build to the point where the character will require a rebuild.

So why did an entire community of Orog decided to stop playing after losing 2 AC? Are mechanical numbers that central and integral to the roleplay? (This is a rhetorical question)

Let’s now go back to your lost characters: have you truly exhausted every rebuild option or spoke to anyone to look for an alternative build? Or did the build had to be built a certain way to cater to the RP at hand?

If the answer is the latter, then we’re about to delve into a whole rabbit hole of how Roleplay and Mechanics exist on a different axis that may or may not be independent of each other. But before that -

The few times I can think of how certain concepts are truly changed due to adjustments are take this one particular case for example:
Death Knight RP: with PM 10 crit immune changed to 15, a barb 16 bard 4 PM 10 build (with terrifying rage and mighty rage and EDR) can not be rebuilt into anything remotely similar.

Now, I felt the loss for that one concept and was actively looking for ways to adjust Palemasters further to enable such a cool concept again. And this is after communicating with certain players and receiving feedback from them.

If all of the “characters lost” to adjustments can be explained with the following:

• Character Concept
• Initial Spread
• Adjustment that makes that spread no longer viable
• Any recourse from other spreads to justify the concept

Only if one can answer point 4 with a resounding “No” can they truly say the character being lost is not their choice.

I’d otherwise be inclined to believe that the players who “lost their characters due to adjustments” didn’t exhaust their option of looking for more options to build their character. There are so many resources out there, all one needed to do was to simply ask.

-XXX- wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:24 pm

This poll... seems to me like asking people whether they'd like receiving $1,000,000,000 from the government to fix the inflation.

So the analogy is…

Everyone is getting to much XP
Would everyone like to get more XP to fix it?

But this is a poll that attempts to sound as neutral as possible without the implication that any of the team will do anything about the experience gain. Instead, it is to get an idea of what everyone’s subjective view of the state of the xp gain rate is.

Can you explain how the inflation analogy works again, I don’t see it.

Kenji wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:48 pm

Everyone is getting to much XP
Would everyone like to get more XP to fix it?

The poll asks precisely that in the C option.

If the hypothesis here is "everyone's getting too much xp", I don't see how asking players whether they'd like less/same/more could present us with any relevant data for it.
As expected the majority of respondents selected what they interpreted as the "I don't care, just don't want to miss out/give up stuff" option so far (evidence for this claim presents itself in the comments).

Kenji wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:48 pm

Can you explain how the inflation analogy works again, I don’t see it.

The idea is that most people would spontaneously jump on the opportunity when offered free money, regardless of whether they'd end up being able to get exponentially less for it as a result.

That's under the assumption that levels equal fun, but a lot of players gain enjoyment from a lot of different aspects of Arelith and that's okay. Some like exploring, some like grinding, some like intrigue, etc. Not everyone enjoys levels, and I know plenty have stated that when given free things it makes them lose motivation- and that makes sense. A lot of players want to feel like their character actually earned the ability to cast timestop.