About That Enchanting Suggestion

[Wytchee]

To be honest, I couldn't care less about gear.

I just want enchantment to actually function, viably, mechanically, in PvE and PvP - because right now it's totally garbo tier.

There are too many counters, and other schools (divination and illusion) do everything it does, but better.

Confusion - okay, I guess. Most things will pass the save. Probably the only actually useful enchantment spell.
Hold person/monster - feeblemind is better, has +4 to its DC and completely obliterates PC casters.
Dominate person - enjoy completely filling out your sixth circle with extended versions of these, because it lasts very briefly
Dominate monster - lol good luck finding a monster that's worth dominating for the short time you'll have it. Very niche and almost comically situational
Mind Fog - great, I guess. If you're down for a one-round stun. But you might as well play a feylock.
Mass charm - doesn't even function properly. Like, at all. Turns everything hostile to you, which is literally the opposite of what you want it to do

I am almost tearing my hair out at the suggestions that enchantment is in a good place right now. It's objectively bad.

[Gnarh]

Seeing we're been asked for suggestions:

Enchantment focii
Suggestion one: If anyone has ever read the trashy but oh-so-good fantasy series Battleaxe by Sarah Douglas, it involves an enchanting system that is based on music and song. So integrate the Spell Focus: Enchantment Feats with Bard song and boosts to perform.

Suggestion two: From a MTG basis enchantments are "persistent" effects that target an individual or the world, although I still like the idea of making the PC who takes the focus more "enchanting." So....

All Console Ability types (i.e the four of them) can be used once per rest.

Spell Focus: Enchantment - small buff to social skills, plus access to the console ability
"-enchantself" which gives a boost to all saving throws and beating any DC's which lasts 1 IG hour (6 minutes)

Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment - another buff to social skills, plus access to the console abilities "-enchantother" and "-curseother"
"-enchantself" - the boost to saving throws and beating any DC's increases and lasts for 2 IG hours (12 minutes)
"-enchantother" - works on PC's, summons and crafting tables. Gives the "-enchantself" bonuses to the target (in the case of table reduces the risk of failure) and lasts for 1 IG hour (6 minutes)
"-curseother" - gives the negative equivalent of "-enchantself" to PC's, summons and crafting tables and lasts 1IG hour (6 minutes)

Epic Spell Focus: Enchantment - gives the Epic Reputation Feat, plus access to the console ability "-deathcurse"
"-enchantself" - player cannot fail saving throws and beats all DC's. Lasts for 2 IG hours (12 minutes)
"-enchantother" - Target cannot fail saving throws and beats all DC's. Lasts 1 IG hour (6 minutes)
"-curseother" - Target has a large reduction in saving throws and DC's. Lasts 1 IG hour (6 minutes)
"-deathcurse" - Costs the Enchanter a hefty chunk of XP. Target dies at the end of a 24 hour IG period (2.4 hours) The curse can be lifted by any Epic Enchanter (including the one that cast it) and any Healer Path Cleric.



Basin "Enchanting" / Imbuement
Can only be taken with the "Courteous Magocracy" feat. The feat can be taken on creation, or PC's can buy the feat from a trainer IG for a very hefty sum.

Having this feat allows the character to invest their crafting points into "Imbue Item" crafting discipline.

Each point invested in "Imbue Item" Crafting Discipline reduces the cost and risk of using the basin.

Idea: Skill points in Lore, Spellcraft, and Use Magical Device also contribute but to a lesser extent. [Potentially you can invest 1 Crafting point for every 1 skill point invested in Lore, Spellcraft or UMD?]

Idea: Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion and Craft Wand - given the reflect a character's experience with creating magical items - should also contribute to Imbuing items in the Basin. Maybe points invested in "Imbue Item" could also reduce the gold and XP costs for Potions, Scrolls and Wands, or increase the caster level for these items?

The Basin still costs XP and Gold.

For previous Enchanters - they get the "Courteous Magocracy" Feat for free, and a crafting points reset.



Thoughts? Ideas? Feel free to contribute, or to tweak things, or to take parts of the idea and put in your own suggestion.

TLDR: Enchantment focii allows for PC's to mess with Saving Throws and DC's. Use of the Enchantment Basin becomes dependent on investing crafting points in a new "imbue item" crafting category.

[Rwby]

I really enjoy the idea of making the basin crafting related so people are forced to chose between crafting/enchanting skills, that achives the desired requirement of making people unable to be self sufficient and creating specialists.

[MissEvelyn]

People are finding it a chore to locate an enchanter to make their gear is one of the things I've been seeing mentioned here. Once again, my epic enchanter ~still~ has yet to be approached, asked, or read anyone searching for an enchanter. Is it honestly that hard to find that we need to open it up so that 75% of the server can make their own enchanted gear and runic items?

I also wonder, am I the only one reading this thread that thinks "Well here comes yet another change that will effect one of my toons that will change the concept of what I was after when I made them." ? I get that she would still be able to enchant, I get you are speaking of giving the school another 'cookie' which most are seeming to focus on domination, but that isn't why I spent those three feats. I would absolutely have taken another focus if being an enchanter was just going to be a given because I made a caster.

I find myself strongly agreeing with this. I do play an Enchantress, and the Spell focus was not picked as a chore. In fact, chores are not enjoyable in a place where we're supposed to have fun and I would rather not play if the game feels like a chore, but that's another topic for another day.

People have asked my character if she knows how to enchant, and being that she's not yet an epic, she lets them know that she hasn't yet mastered it but is well on her way. Sometimes they don't care and just want something enchanted - especially the non-epics. And that breeds a lot of roleplay and I'm enjoying it.

If you were to take that away from so many characters, then it begs the suggestion that there are so many other changes we could make before we break most casters, changes that are far more important in terms of immersion. One of those changes being the Caster level for UMD'ers in regards to how difficult it is to dispel them, for example.

UPDATE: Given how very, very different magic works on Arelith from the rest of D&D, it's not that immersion-breaking that enchanters are the ones doing being good at the item imbuing. Are we going to complain that Scry shouldn't be an epic spell, because it's only a 3rd* level spell in D&D?

*For Bards. 4th for wizards/sorcerers

[JediMindTrix]

It honestly just sounds like you want to keep the monopoly you have on that rp rather than allow it become more accessible to other actors.

[Versatile]

And the exact same thing could be said in reverse. 'We' want it all to ourselves? 'You' want all the benefits of your power builds plus some. Letting enchanters have a nich at the cost of three feats into a school that 'you' claim isn't any good doesn't seem that crazy.

*Obviously the 'we' and 'you' isn't at anyone in particular.

If everyone is allowed to give their opinion why it should be taken and given to everyone than at least hear the ones who want their choices not to change without jumping in and putting them down.

[Basementfellow]

Given how very, very different magic works on Arelith from the rest of D&D, it's not that immersion-breaking that enchanters are the ones doing being good at the item imbuing. Are we going to complain that Scry shouldn't be an epic spell, because it's only a 3rd* level spell in D&D?

Except, even within the so-called "very different" way magic works, every Enchantment spell has something to do with manipulating another person or creature. Nothing to do with making magical items. Scry being an epic spell is still consistent with the theme of the Divination school.

[Sockss]

A large proportion of the servers RP with enchanters is forced and originates from OOC interaction.

"Hey bud, could you log in your shelved enchanter and make me some stuff. The current system sort-of gates item progression behind who you know; hell, you know how it is. Thanks!"

10/10 would RP again.

[JediMindTrix]

And the exact same thing could be said in reverse. 'We' want it all to ourselves? 'You' want all the benefits of your power builds plus some.

It could be said, but it'd be off the mark because your avg powerbuilder/gamer is not going to have a problem finding an enchanter for reasons Sockss stated - they're already motivated enough to hunt about OOC (if they even have too, because they might actually know where to go IC to find one) that even if they don't have those connections yet, they'll find them pretty quick. And to be frank, that can quite often be the only route to finding one for some people.
So at present it's either really difficult or really easy to find an enchanter to make gear (which literally has nothing to do with the Enchantment school in the first place) hard AF for casuals and easy for dedicated gamers. These changes benefit the casual more than the hardcore.

The fear seems non-sensical (but fear often is). You would still have access to the RP, gain other cookies actually relevant to the spell school, you would just have to share the RP more. Arguably it's widened accessibility would see a net increase in RP, although honestly I'm not sure how compelling 'hey can you make me x y z' while you come up with clever ways to say "+1 STR plz" IC can really be over the long-term.

Letting enchanters have a niche at the cost of three feats into a school that 'you' claim isn't any good doesn't seem that crazy.

It is not a good dynamic when Enchanting is a sub-par choice, both mechanically speaking and in terms of RP perks, yet essential for high-end gear.

YCE is spot on the money here. Changes would still leave Enchantment with a niche, just one more relevant to what the school is actually about, while once again widening accessibility to a core game mechanic.

If everyone is allowed to give their opinion why it should be taken and given to everyone than at least hear the ones who want their choices not to change without jumping in and putting them down.

You're totes welcome to express your opinion but be prepared to defend it. Spades are spades and I'm not going to call them rubies to avoid fluffling the feelers.



EDIT: And frankly all of this too:

To be honest, I couldn't care less about gear.

I just want enchantment to actually function, viably, mechanically, in PvE and PvP - because right now it's totally garbo tier.

There are too many counters, and other schools (divination and illusion) do everything it does, but better.

Confusion - okay, I guess. Most things will pass the save. Probably the only actually useful enchantment spell.
Hold person/monster - feeblemind is better, has +4 to its DC and completely obliterates PC casters.
Dominate person - enjoy completely filling out your sixth circle with extended versions of these, because it lasts very briefly
Dominate monster - lol good luck finding a monster that's worth dominating for the short time you'll have it. Very niche and almost comically situational
Mind Fog - great, I guess. If you're down for a one-round stun. But you might as well play a feylock.
Mass charm - doesn't even function properly. Like, at all. Turns everything hostile to you, which is literally the opposite of what you want it to do

I am almost tearing my hair out at the suggestions that enchantment is in a good place right now. It's objectively bad.

[thingsicantdo]

A large proportion of the servers RP with enchanters is forced and originates from OOC interaction.

"Hey bud, could you log in your shelved enchanter and make me some stuff. The current system sort-of gates item progression behind who you know; hell, you know how it is. Thanks!"

10/10 would RP again.

and we have discovered the culprit behind why the epic enchanters can't find customers. (the culprit is this attitude, not Sockss. that would be silly).

seriously, though, reminds me of 6 years ago when if you were an epic enchanter and under level 30, you would KEEP IT A GOSH DARNED SECRET because if word got out, EVERYONE AND THEIR GRANDMOTHER WOULD BE SENDING YOU SPEEDIES TO GET YOU TO BLOW YOUR XP ON THEIR POORLY OPTIMIZED CRAP.

[JediMindTrix]

Yea I don't buy that. Despite frequent public enchanting, my Enchantress Imrae was rarely approached about it - and with an alarming frequency I would see 'need enchanter' postings on the board by people I had literally seen the day before watch me use the basin. Occasionally, one person would see me enchanting with someone else and I'd get backlog of two or three orders... every cpl RL months.

[thingsicantdo]

not my experience. i had people coming out of the woodwork for enchanting. on the other hand, i don't think letting people see me use the basin is advertisement.

i made gear for Sabbath, some misticans, banites, cyricists, abyssals (you can see a pattern of my clientele here) and there was always more people who needed it.

of course, back then, enchanting held more value because of the XP loss. since no one wanted to do it, it seemed like the epic enchanters held a lot more power. now, with enchanting becoming easier and easier and crafted items becoming better and better, it's less of a "i should get those feats and make tons of gold" and more of a "meh, it's not super strong." Runes are probably adding something to the mix, but i haven't played an epic enchanter in years, so idk

[Blood on my Lips]

Yea I don't buy that. Despite frequent public enchanting, my Enchantress Imrae was rarely approached about it - and with an alarming frequency I would see 'need enchanter' postings on the board by people I had literally seen the day before watch me use the basin. Occasionally, one person would see me enchanting with someone else and I'd get backlog of two or three orders... every cpl RL months.

I have had a completely opposite experience. Even if I was naming a wand in the basin in the Hub people would ask me if I was an enchanter. I would have a line of 3+ people waiting for enchantments every time I touched the basin. I had people metagame knowing my character was an enchanter because their previous character knew.

I was always backlogged with orders and I have more than once stood at the basin enchanting for random people for two real life hours straight.

Honestly, I like Red Ropes' suggestion. But a different boon would have to be given to the enchanting class to make up for its one and only perk.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

The problem with making the "3.5" change, at least logically, in my mind, is that if you want to open it up to all spell-casting classes(it technically is), you need to designate junk feats in the game that can replace the 3.5 crafting feats.

Craft Wondrous Item
Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Craft Staff / Craft Rod

In terms of craft rod and craft staff, and the functionality you get out of them, for NWN, roll them into one.

To me, the cookie is that for the investment in the SF: Enchantment feat line you're considered to have these feats that no one else has, so you're better at it than them (I'd actually like to point out that everyone including the level 2 warrior can already enchant, they just aren't as good at it- and I've yet to hear a convincing reason as to why they ought to be).

I'm okay with the fact that it's sub-par in PvE (although based on some of the things I've dominated with not a great deal of effort I rigorously disagree with this general assessment) and PvP (juicy STR tanks with low will and 8 wisdom exist in abundance), because RP and gear. I also think it's cool that I can bequeath teh Aw350m3 l00tz to awesome people and help them be more awesome. I'm not quite a bard, but I can make other people stronger.


If I ever feel like I need more gold, I can just go and stand in front of a basin in front of other people while holding a staff and do some minor enchantment or extra item for myself. Literally always yields results.

Also, I strongly disagree about how difficult it is to find an enchanter, at least on the surface. There is a major portal hub in the arcane tower lobby. I accept that some people have very low population playtimes (although given the state NWN was in, "low population" is a very relative term now) but I find it impossible to believe there are no opportunities to meet enchanters.

That's my two coppers (and then some ) worth on the topic.

[Wytchee]

All these anecdotes are nice, but don't let them distract us from the fact that enchantment is garbo and bad and needs more boons beyond just basin perks.

[Baron Saturday]

I'm okay with the fact that it's sub-par in PvE (although based on some of the things I've dominated with not a great deal of effort I rigorously disagree with this general assessment) and PvP (juicy STR tanks with low will and 8 wisdom exist in abundance), because RP and gear. I also think it's cool that I can bequeath teh Aw350m3 l00tz to awesome people and help them be more awesome. I'm not quite a bard, but I can make other people stronger.

I wanna take a moment to look at this in light of your assertion that basin bonuses through Enchantment foci are technically open to any caster class. You're right, they technically are, to an extent - but for any class aside from wizard/sorcerer, and I suppose feylock, Enchantment foci are taken ONLY for the basin bonuses, because the Enchantment spells those classes have access to are utter garbage.

Let's look at the highest level Enchantment spells of the other classes.
Bard: Mind Fog, level 5
Cleric: Blindness/Deafness, level 3
Druid: Hold Monster, level 4
Ranger: Hold Animal, level 2
Paladin: None

So while Enchantment foci are arguably useful for one spell in the wizard/sorcerer spellbook, they are dead weight for any other class.

You say that you have yet to hear a convincing reason for why basin bonuses should be decoupled from Enchantment foci, but I have yet to hear a convincing argument for them to remain there that isn't "because they always have been."

Last point:

I also think it's cool that I can bequeath teh Aw350m3 l00tz to awesome people and help them be more awesome.

Yeah, it is cool. That's why non-wizard/sorcerers would also like to be able to do it without having to throw away three feats.

[Dr_Hazard89]

I've had several ESF ench characters, two of which enchanted nearly non-stop for any elf, without cost. Myon was spoiled, and Benwick, Bendir and Brog also had access to these characters for their lifetimes and I played them a very long time. Currently my main character also has ESF and enchants for nearly anyone for nearly no cost (material + tips, usually in the form of a handful of greenstones).

Are enchanters that hard to find? In my time-zone at least, there are plenty. I do see a lot of people looking for enchantments the wrong way though. MOST COMMONLY I am not asked in character at all. I am asked through tells, sometimes by characters my character hasn't even met or heard of. Do not do this.

My main gripe was that the spell schools didn't seem right. Teleport/Portals = Conj. Enchanting = Trans. I actually like there being a spell school that does enchantments and people having to find them and would vote for keeping it restricted to enchanters (or transmuters, if we go that way).

And as always, I'd hope for a rebuild, against all odds. If I have to re-level another character, it's just going to result in me either taking a very long break, or powering through .. burning myself out .. and taking a very long break.

[Woper_The_Black]

Most of these suggestions come from players that have been here a long time. This decision to give enchantment said perks happened ages ago and was decided on by the devs and everybody had their opportunity to discuss/argue the viability of the changes back then (just like the current ammunition update recently), you either argued/discussed it back then and the devs let the decision stand, in which case you should respect it, or if you said nothing about it back then funny how it only just starts to become a fundamental "this isn't right issue for you now"

[Tourmaline]

Most of these suggestions come from players that have been here a long time. This decision to give enchantment said perks happened ages ago and was decided on by the devs and everybody had their opportunity to discuss/argue the viability of the changes back then (just like the current ammunition update recently), you either argued/discussed it back then and the devs let the decision stand, in which case you should respect it, or if you said nothing about it back then funny how it only just starts to become a fundamental "this isn't right issue for you now"

That's.. silly. The devs are a totally different team now. Many of the current devs were players back then. We're seeing a lot of stuff from the old days undone (kensai, weave master and favored soul removals are big examples of this) and more big mechanical changes may have happened in the last year and a half than in the six or seven years before.

Not to mention this is probably the tenth time this discussion has come up... I remember people saying the school didn't seem right way back then. But this isn't a democracy and these forum discussions are almost always just hot air, except every now and then when they're not.

[Dr_Hazard89]

Given how very, very different magic works on Arelith from the rest of D&D, it's not that immersion-breaking that enchanters are the ones doing being good at the item imbuing. Are we going to complain that Scry shouldn't be an epic spell, because it's only a 3rd* level spell in D&D?

Uh. I think I've made that complaint in the past, actually.

I'll just take my bag of salt and leave.

[Versatile]

Above post wasn’t a quote from me but I still hate the thought of yet another change that will effect existing toons.

[Dr_Hazard89]

Above post wasn’t a quote from me but I still hate the thought of yet another change that will effect existing toons.

Oh. Sorry about that. I don't know what I'm doing!

[BrutalForce48]

Rp wise
In my last post I already said how I feel regarding that, and just as an overarching statement I think enchant properly reflects the needed study of runic work.

Mechanics

To say that Enchant as a school is total garbage I feel is frankly wrong. Just like any other school of casting it has its boons and short comings. Charm/Dominate are extremely powerful spells, they can literally cripple others. I.e. cast charm person on a will save low build. Yes -pray is a thing, so slot 2 of the spell or maybe make enchantment spells not -prayable.

Dominate monster/person. Again perfectly reflected in my opinion. We shouldn't be gaining henchmen with this spell. Its duration is short at first and duration increases to be much more useful once in upper teens/epics and still usable then. I consistently use that spell on all my enchanters in both pve and pvp. If were going from an rp sense then imo they shouldn't be a long duration spell as you're literally fighting to make an unwilling mind do your bidding. The length is more than adequate to do what you need to do with the dominated beings. Don't believe that, go take an Esf enchanter, take them to RDI and dominate the fire giant chieftain. It's about 6-10 minutes of domination which is more than long enough to do what you need to with them. I've used this tactic facing abazzur and its devastating. Plus if you have a melee with you then boom the dominated creature holds aggro and less dmg to your dps'r.

Overarching I'll just say again that I feel that Enchantment is in a good place as is. A further ESF boon would be great but I think from the basin, to, and general spell wise Enchantment is in a perfect place.

[JediMindTrix]

Rp wise
In my last post I already said how I feel regarding that, and just as an overarching statement I think enchant properly reflects the needed study of runic work.

Mechanics

To say that Enchant as a school is total garbage I feel is frankly wrong. Just like any other school of casting it has its boons and short comings. Charm/Dominate are extremely powerful spells, they can literally cripple others. I.e. cast charm person on a will save low build. Yes -pray is a thing, so slot 2 of the spell or maybe make enchantment spells not -prayable.

Dominate monster/person. Again perfectly reflected in my opinion. We shouldn't be gaining henchmen with this spell. Its duration is short at first and duration increases to be much more useful once in upper teens/epics and still usable then. I consistently use that spell on all my enchanters in both pve and pvp. If were going from an rp sense then imo they shouldn't be a long duration spell as you're literally fighting to make an unwilling mind do your bidding. The length is more than adequate to do what you need to do with the dominated beings. Don't believe that, go take an Esf enchanter, take them to RDI and dominate the fire giant chieftain. It's about 6-10 minutes of domination which is more than long enough to do what you need to with them. I've used this tactic facing abazzur and its devastating. Plus if you have a melee with you then boom the dominated creature holds aggro and less dmg to your dps'r.

You can literally just pop a clarity and ignore Enchantment entirely. It can't even be breached. I don't think you see all the angles here.

[Wytchee]

Better be an epic abjuror too if you go up against a level 30 weapon master with a clarity potion, because Jedi is right, it can't be breached.

Even if you manage to dispel it at a CL of 30, every enchantment effect can be -prayed away.

And, again, Divination does everything enchantment does, but better. Definitely not seeing all the angles.

Also, if you're using dominate person to avoid damage to your tank/DPS, you're wasting spellslots. You already have infinite blindness/deafness which you're almost obligated to spam anyway, and it does effectively the same thing.