Constant Beta?

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Constant Beta?

Post by thimblegiant » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:12 am

Hey all - I'm not one to start threads like this (trust me), but Arelith is a pretty unique experience, and I thought giving a small amount of feedback is better than just disappearing into the void without stating a reason.

I wanted to say that I think the constant rolling releases of fundamentals are growing tiresome and are making me want to look elsewhere to invest my free time. I think the latest monk changes have done me in, for awhile at least. It's not because of the nerf, my multi-class monk may actually benefit given I was playing him as an unarmed dex build anyway, but it's this nagging realization this will never end.

There have been so many changes since the short time I've been here, some even rolled back within a few days, that it makes it hard to get into a rhythm with a character before you get hit again. It may not even be directly related to a specific build (like the monk), but even adding something to crafting, then taking it away can mess you up. Or shortening the duration of spells, or man, so many things.

I'm not sure how others play, but I like to plan several levels into the future, and these constant changes can torpedo those plans midway.

I'm not into PVP and trying to make the most optimal build, but only just trying to step into a fantasy for awhile where I get to join a bunch of other oddballs who agree that playing a wizard or a gnome for awhile is actually healthy fun, and you won't get queer looks for saying so.

So - is there a way to test these changes for a period of time before releasing them into the wild? Without a doubt this must have been discussed to death already over the years, but at least for me, this doesn't work.
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Ork » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:34 am

I can appreciate your stance, but one of the things that differentiates Arelith from other NWN servers is the unique mechanics system.

This game is ancient and some of us have been playing it for awhile. I can say that some of us have stuck around so long because things change, class abilities become new again, etc.

The monk change was a long time coming. Few complained when they buffed the class, but many are after the nerf. It's clear that the nerf hurts when it effects your character, but it legitimately needed to happen.

These changes are tested prior to release. If you're worried there will be a change concerning a class - it's a good rule of thumb to not play the class with new bells and whistles. Eventually they need tuning.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by thimblegiant » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:03 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:34 am
The monk change was a long time coming. Few complained when they buffed the class, but many are after the nerf. It's clear that the nerf hurts when it effects your character, but it legitimately needed to happen.

These changes are tested prior to release. If you're worried there will be a change concerning a class - it's a good rule of thumb to not play the class with new bells and whistles. Eventually they need tuning.
Thanks, yeah, I'm not really caring too much about the monk changes (specifically).

What I hear you saying is Arelith is in constant flux, which I feel aligns with my experience, but can it be in constant flux with a little more control behind it? It could very well be I am playing on the wrong server, and I'll just need to look elsewhere.

To be clear, I'm just giving a bit of quick feedback as to why I may be leaving because often times, when one person speaks up, it actually represents many others who feel the same but never do. These people will simply disappear. As a dev, I know I would appreciate at least knowing why, but I also strongly suspect this is a well traveled road and those that can hack it hang around, and those that can't simply don't.
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by R0GUE » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:16 pm

I assume one of the reasons so many changes are happening at once is Arelith just started using haks as a method of changing gameplay. I imagine the radical changes will begin to slow down given time.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Irongron » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:07 pm

This is totally understandable, especially given how poorly I handled this particular case.

It is the case though, that compared to the last 4 years there has been a significant slow-down in class changes, and it is something I have said I would like to soon draw a line under (though two more classes are also likely to be dialled back soon)

On the broader subject of sweeping changes, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on ones point of view) we are now at a time when a lot will happen, both in terms of world and mechanics. HAKs have opened up a lot of possibilities that didn't exist before, and many decisions have already been made.

I know Ravenloft too describes itself as a beta, and at the moment I guess the same is true for Arelith.

We develop it for the fun of all involved, and I hope that future changes will be welcomed.


Coming back to monk then; I've been meaning to post on the topic and this thread seems as good as any - I should explain why this particular change was so dreadfully managed (by myself)

First off, I make no apology for the original concept of the monk change, or the nerf that followed it - this is normal procedure in such updates. The problem is this should have happened within the first week, not 6 months later.

There are two reasons. First is that the developer responsible (who it's worth remembering has been one of our most active and most talented team members who contributed SO much to Arelith including the writ system, and is NO WAY deserving of some decidedly ungrateful comments I've read from those who he gave so much of his free time for), was on hiatus.

It has always been my policy to keep developers from working on another's project, so that their vision remains intact and their work respected. Honestly? It's probably not the best policy in retrospect, and this isnt the first time it caused issues. Anyway, Yellowcateyes was well aware of the problems with the first draft of the monk update, and went so far as to detail a changelog over 3 months ago. That this wasn't actioned until now is entirely down to me.

This brings me to the second reason for the delay - Haks, or specifically monk weapons. Right from the start Katana was added to monk to work in a special combo with a wakisashi - something I posted about at the time. The problem was that this weapon did not exist, at least not yet...

We are in the process of adding a number of weapons to Arelith (and also fundamentally changing how proficiencies/weapon feats work), including a full range of monk weapons - including wakisashi.

Image

These things always take longer than I envision, and while I kept saying 'let's wait until we can offer weapon using monks a solid alternative' the issue with the horribly balanced class was getting ever worse.

More monk weapon changes are coming though, and the latest nerfs clear the way for these to be wholly beneficial.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Seekeepeek » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:58 pm

Irongron wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:07 pm
(though two more classes are also likely to be dialled back soon)
Cool. Thanks for the post irongron. Do you have Any hints what these two classes are?
it would be much appreciated, to avoid future frustrations on new characters.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Irongron » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:02 pm

Seekeepeek wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:58 pm
Irongron wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:07 pm
(though two more classes are also likely to be dialled back soon)
Cool. Thanks for the post irongron. Do you have Any hints what these two classes are?
it would be much appreciated, to avoid future frustrations on new characters.
Wild Mage and Druid.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Quidix » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:14 pm

Irongron wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:07 pm
We are in the process of adding a number of weapons to Arelith (and also fundamentally changing how proficiencies/weapon feats work), including a full range of monk weapons - including wakisashi.

Image

These things always take longer than I envision, and while I kept saying 'let's wait until we can offer weapon using monks a solid alternative' the issue with the horribly balanced class was getting ever worse.

More monk weapon changes are coming though, and the latest nerfs clear the way for these to be wholly beneficial.
These weapons look fantastic! Are these weapon changes still far away?

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Twily » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:57 pm

More monk weapon changes are coming though, and the latest nerfs clear the way for these to be wholly beneficial.
Thank you so much for this.
This is enough for me to have no complaints with the nerfs, as once these are added it will reopen the avenues that had been closed.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Subutai » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:24 pm

I'll make a bigger post on this when I'm not on my phone, but I want to ask. Do Arelith monks really need to be so Japanese? Faerun is a long way from Wa. If monks are going to get new weapons, I'd really like to see stuff like spear, longbow, etc., added before more Japanese weapons.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Ork » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:51 pm

Subutai wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:24 pm
I'll make a bigger post on this when I'm not on my phone, but I want to ask. Do Arelith monks really need to be so Japanese? Faerun is a long way from Wa. If monks are going to get new weapons, I'd really like to see stuff like spear, longbow, etc., added before more Japanese weapons.
Monks can be both. Want a Wa inspired monk? You have the weapons. Ultimately, monk as a class in D&D pulls heavily from shaolin and not the european monastic traditions. Let people have their katanas. You can play your monk ultimately how you'd like.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Durvayas » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:00 pm

Subutai wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:24 pm
I'll make a bigger post on this when I'm not on my phone, but I want to ask. Do Arelith monks really need to be so Japanese? Faerun is a long way from Wa. If monks are going to get new weapons, I'd really like to see stuff like spear, longbow, etc., added before more Japanese weapons.
I won't pretend to be particularly enamored with the idea of seeing monks with nunchaku and sai in the underdark either.
Sai in particular make little to no sense, because by their very design they do not work against western weaponry. They're explicitly designed to catch, and break, thin steel swords, which was a good design philosophy in japan, where the wakizashi and katana were the standard for samurai.

It doesn't work, at all, in Faerun, which is mostly european in nature, where the most common weapon is the spear, followed by the mace. Even if I'm not playing a monk from wa, seeing a flood of far eastern weapons on Arelith, and especially in the underdark, is going to be a bit jarring from an immersion standpoint.

I suppose the damage to the setting's integrity could be mitigated a bit if they come with some heavy UMD requirements to keep them from becoming mainstream weapons. Maybe a minor reward for an 'easterner' path that would open them up so you could still see the occassional kara-turan PC without them needing to dump everything into UMD or requiring them taking monk levels.
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Irongron » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:40 pm

Well first off, let me say I do rather like the idea of a 'European' themed monk class, but when it comes to conflating various unarmed disciplines and martial orders from entirely different 'Eastern' cultures into a single 'monk' class, well, that's basically the very definition of the D&D monk class.

We're not actually including nunchuka as it happens, but those various weapons, be it the Buddhist Shakujō, Fillipino Escrima, the Classic daishō pair (Katana and Wakisashi), the Chinese Wind And Fire Wheel, all often feature on D&D monk lists, we really are not pulling this out of our hat - this really IS what D&D monks are...

https://rpgmuseum.fandom.com/wiki/Special_monk_weapon

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk_Weapons_(5e_Other)

As we introduce these options monks characters will not really need to choose which of these to specialise in at all, but rather they'll simply exist as options for all, depending on a particular character's concept or situational requirements. They'll gain the proficencies as they do currently, so if anyone wants to play a conventional 'fist-fighting' monk, there'll be nothing to stop them, indeed they'll be able to swap between the various weapons at will.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by thimblegiant » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:44 pm

Irongron wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:07 pm
This is totally understandable, especially given how poorly I handled this particular case.

It is the case though, that compared to the last 4 years there has been a significant slow-down in class changes, and it is something I have said I would like to soon draw a line under (though two more classes are also likely to be dialled back soon)

On the broader subject of sweeping changes, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on ones point of view) we are now at a time when a lot will happen, both in terms of world and mechanics. HAKs have opened up a lot of possibilities that didn't exist before, and many decisions have already been made.

I know Ravenloft too describes itself as a beta, and at the moment I guess the same is true for Arelith.
Thanks for the thoughtful response, and level-setting the expectations.
Irongron wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:07 pm
We develop it for the fun of all involved, and I hope that future changes will be welcomed.
Oh, I think so. I mean, change is what made Arelith what it is today, and only change will bring about what it will be in the future.

Ideally a dedicated beta world would be nice, but we all live in reality (most of the time), so I know this can't happen for various reasons.

I think now I know what to expect and will just need to roll with it, and thanks for the heads-up on the Wild Mage (almost just built one) and Druid, two classes I actually was considering.

While waiting for the changes on those, I have a new alt I'm playing with for the moment and he's turning into a fun time, so I'll keep going with him for awhile.
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Subutai » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:02 am

I said I'd post a longer post when I was on my computer. I don't know how much longer I need or want to be, but here we go, as promised. We'll see if I say anything worth while.
Irongron wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:40 pm
[T]hose various weapons, be it the Buddhist Shakujō, Fillipino Escrima, the Classic daishō pair (Katana and Wakisashi), the Chinese Wind And Fire Wheel, all often feature on D&D monk lists, we really are not pulling this out of our hat - this really IS what D&D monks are...

https://rpgmuseum.fandom.com/wiki/Special_monk_weapon

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk_Weapons_(5e_Other)
I just want to point out here that these are taken from the generic DnD monk weapons list, rather than any list of Faerunian weapons. Generic DnD is very generic, especially when it comes to weapons, and they tend to just come up with endless lists of weapons, not all of which are appropriate, or make sense for, a particular setting.

I think it's very important to note that many of these weapons and cultures do exist in Forgotten Realm, but on the entire opposite end of the landmass. If we're suddenly going to have a huge influx of weapons for the sake of it, there are many more weapons that could be introduced from closer to Arelith's geographic and cultural roots, rather than having to import them from across the world.

Monk has also, for some reason, tended to ignore even base DnD weapons that are commonly used by Eastern monks and martial artists, and are extremely prevalent in the martial arts films that monks are usually based on (such as my aforementioned spears and longbows) in favor of bizarre, and often not particularly practical outside of martial arts training, specialized monk weapons that seem to be chosen mostly because they look cool. Again, if we're going to introduce new monk weapons, why not give them better access to existing weapons, rather than introducing a slough of Japanese ones?

All that said, I want to make a point for taking the opportunity to expand on monks less as a wuxia film cutout that's just copy/pasted onto Forgotten Realms, and instead fitting it more into the realm that already exists. Many of the monk weapons weren't originally weapons at all. They ranged from farming implements like kamas, to religious implements like shakujō, to standard weapons of war like katana. Some were developed specifically as martial arts weapons, but they tended much more towards making use of what already existed.

So in this vein, if we want monks to fit more seemlessly and immersively into the world, why not expand them in a suitable way? Instead of giving them a jian, give them a longsword. Instead of relegating them to a katana, why not give them a bastard sword? Sahbuti Shanardanda already exists in the lore as a Calishite monk who uses a bastard sword. Give them flails, from the farming implement, or scythes. If monks exist in Faerun as local martial arts sects, it would be entirely logical and consistent with historic and real work martial arts traditions for them to use the local weaponry.

There are so many cool ways to have Eastern-flavored monks that also fit into the Forgotten Realms settings. Not only would it be immersive, but also unique. How many other games have you played where martial arts were actually worked into a Western-style culture in a way that made sense? Arelith could do something extremely interesting, immersive, and unique by focusing first on giving monks the ability to use Faerun's more common weapons, blending them seamlessly into the existing world, rather than slapping them on over the top.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:15 am

I feel like the old cornball saying "you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet" applies here, and no one should feel bad about making changes that ended up being too powerful on the quest to create a better game. It's easy to say "this was obviously broken and shouldn't have been done in the first place" in hindsight. It's also just as easy to say using the same hindsight "this was obviously too powerful and was going to get nerfed eventually, so why waste your time on leveling a monk up," and I doubt anyone complaining about their monk getting nerfed wants to read that.

Just trying to put things in perspective and stuff.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Peppermint » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:43 am

Irongron wrote:We're not actually including nunchuka as it happens, but those various weapons, be it the Buddhist Shakujō, Fillipino Escrima, the Classic daishō pair (Katana and Wakisashi), the Chinese Wind And Fire Wheel, all often feature on D&D monk lists, we really are not pulling this out of our hat - this really IS what D&D monks are...

https://rpgmuseum.fandom.com/wiki/Special_monk_weapon

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk_Weapons_(5e_Other)
The second link here isn't even third edition (or Forgotten Realms, for that matter).

The first link has none of those weapons at all, except mentioned as historical anecdote.

Worth noting is that most Faerunian monk disciplines are rooted in Amn and Calimshan--suggesting a Spanish influence, not Eastern. Then, of course, there's the stuff on the far east for Kozakuran adventures.

Ironically, you could make an argument for nunchakus (as this is 3.0 core), though it really doesn't fit most monks as described in Faerun. The rest of what's planned is from non-3.0 sources and no more relevant than suggesting we should incorporate laser guns because there are stats for them in the Dungeon Master's Guide*.

(* Page 164, by the way.)

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Irongron » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:33 pm

There can be rare times where posts do test my patience.

So...

NWN monks are NOT based on Spanish fighting monk (???), and to suggest a class which uses martial arts, shuriken & KI ENERGY is not inspired by Japanese martial tradition, should not include katana and sai, and is in fact European, seems intentionally provokative.

Also the above of those two links does in fact mention all of these weapons (admittedly they're not in the picture...)

In short, it's absolutely fine not to like something, or to wish another direction, but one doesn't need insist every time that its wrong.

Ive seen a lot of absurd posts in my time, but reading that adding more Japanese weapons to a Japanese themed class is compatible to adding laser pistols - that's going to take some beating.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Peppermint » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:10 pm

Irongron, with due respect, you are categorically incorrect.

Image

This is the excerpt from the Forgotten Realms campaign setting (Pg. 24). Most Faerunian monks are rooted in Amnian and Calishite tradition, with some immigrants from Kara-Tur.

You're welcome to pursue another direction. It's your server. But please do not dismiss the facts as "absurd" or make insinuations about my character. We're all adults here; there's no need to resort to that.

ETA: In hindsight, I recognize this post might have come across as rude. That's really, really not my intention! I just wanted to present an alternative direction for monks that is rooted in the game's lore. I'm not a fan of the eastern direction, but I know a lot of people dig that kind of stuff. So if that's the kind of direction you want to take, cool. Peace?
Last edited by Peppermint on Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Subutai » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:40 pm

So, I feel like there's some disconnect here.

Monks in DnD are very obviously not based on Spanish monks, because Spanish monks were like any other European Christian monks, and were very much not martial artists. They lived in monasteries (Spain has some really cool monasteries) and did standard European monk things, like praying and farming and stuff. They very much didn't do any martial arts.

In DnD (standard, not FR), monks are, as Irongron says, based very clearly on eastern, particularly Japanese, instances. Honestly, they're based much more on martial arts films than anything real, but still. The inspiration is very clear.

However, that doesn't change the fact that in Forgotten Realms, monks largely originate from the Shining South (Calimshan and Amn, specifically, although one can assume there are monks from Tethyr too, since it's between the two), which is very much not based on Japan or eastern Asia, but much more on Spain (both European and Moorish).

So we have two bits that conflict pretty hard, those being...
  • Monks in DnD, as a class, are based eastern monks/martial arts movies
  • Monks in FR originate from a very European/Near Eastern-style region
This leads to a strange situation where FR, if using all generic DnD weapons, unmodified proficiency lists, etc., gives monks a bunch of weapons and weapon proficiecies and special weapons which have no reason to actually exist in the places that they tend to originate from. Wizards, for some reason, tends to have a very strong aversion towards modifying base classes and things like weapon proficiencies to suit the setting. So, Wizards solution to monks having Japanese weapons was simply to say throw them, Japanese weapons and all, into Forgotten Realms and never address the strange weapon choices. Despite the fact that, as I said about, there already exist characters like Sahbuti Shanardanda who specifically uses Western weapons as a monk.

This is where I was trying to go in my earlier post. It's not that monks as a class are based on European monks (they're not), but that as long as Arelith is updating monk weapons, we're granted the wonderful opportunity to do something that core DnD and FR declined to do, which is to actually weave the monks into the culture of Faerun, instead of just sticking them in completely as-is.

Instead of saying, "Monks use Japanese weapons because the class is based on Japanese monks", why not consider what makes sense for the lore of the setting? Why not consider what weapons the monks of places like Calimshan and Amn would have access to (with obvious exceptions for mechanically broken choices). Scimitars are common in Calimshan, so would it not make sense for a monk from Calimshan to have learned to use a scimitar (if giving them the weapon prof wouldn't be mechanically broken) instead of a katana? Instead of having a naginata, why not a glaive (a European weapon we'd need to add to the game, but basically what a naginata is, already) or a spear? Why not flails, maces, bows, etc., all that a Calimshan or Amn-based martial art would have had very easy access to?

Monks have always stood out as being particularly foreign to the setting, due entirely to the fact that they're essentially just pasted in with no attempt having been made to make them feel integrated. As Irongron has said, they're based pretty much entirely on Japanese monks. My question is, do we have to double down on their Japanese-ness, just because it's what the class was created as? Why not take the opportunity to integrate them into the setting more tightly?

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:47 pm

Could make the argument that the Calishite influence is a more direct Middle East/North Africa influence, which is probably rooted in some Zoroastrianism (older than Buddhism). Or not.

At a higher level, I never really jive with supporting the often problematic stereotypes that generic DnD implies, but you just gotta roll with it.

In terms of a "Constant Beta"? While I dislike comparing constantly to tabletop experiences, I think it's definitely a healthier approach to look at Arelith as a version of your favourite tabletop rpg than a video game. TTRPGs constantly produce new supplementary books, push out new errata, and otherwise are constantly in flux.

Heck, Pathfinder 2E came out on August 1st, and like 2 weeks later the Devs already addressed some things that had to be changed. Like jeez.

Arelith doesn't have a playtest. It doesn't have a way of gradually implementing change and monitoring the results. I like to think that not every mechanical change can be thoroughly predicted, and so sometimes a change has to go live and the playerbase has to figure it out.

Arelith is a dynamic space. It's probably what keeps things fresh and going. Do I agree with where all the change is occurring? Not always. But I do appreciate that change is ongoing.

Like DnD, you can only bring forward 50% of the idea or the encounter or the thing, the other 50% is from the narrative of the world and the DM (devs) and the other players. Playing with any kind of self-assured certainty on anything is never going to get you far, whether about mechanical expectation or otherwise.
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:58 pm

I'm gonna take the line "All art steals" and add to it with "But it doesn't cut and paste". Sure, Colonial Spain is used as an influence for Amn, Cormyr touches on France, Moonshae has a heavy brittish island theme...but these are just things to help other people relate to something that was imagined in one dudes head. It's meant as a baseline, not a blue print. I think new weapon options are a good thing, and would even accept lasers as long as they came attached to shark's heads. I would so start playing again just to make a villain with sharks with frigging laser beams as his pets.

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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Subutai » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:13 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:58 pm
I'm gonna take the line "All art steals" and add to it with "But it doesn't cut and paste". Sure, Colonial Spain is used as an influence for Amn [...] but these are just things to help other people relate to something that was imagined in one dudes head. It's meant as a baseline, not a blue print.
I honestly don't think Amn, Calimshan, or any other part of the Forgotten Realms, including Arelith, is anywhere approaching cutting and pasting. In fact, that dislike of cutting and pasting is a large part of what I'm getting at. Monks are, and always have been, the closest thing DnD has to cutting and pasting. They have access to all kinds of weapons that aren't really part of any of the established settings. The weapons monks tend to use, and the new weapons being advocated for, aren't part of Ebberon, or Greyhawk, or the Faerunian part of Forgotten Realm. The only place they exist in Forgotten Realms, in fact, are the very obviously cut-and-pasted Wa and Kozakura and, to some extent, the slightly-less-obviously cut-and-pasted other parts of Kara-Tur.

I would never argue that monk should be made to mirror real life European monks (just play a cleric for that), but I would argue, strongly, that Arelithian monks shouldn't just be copy-pasted eastern Asian monks, either.

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I_Am_King_Midas
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by I_Am_King_Midas » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:13 pm

I think its great to add variety to the monk class :) My one ask is that unarmed fighters dont fall behind. I like that still being a big deal and there are lots of ways we can even expand upon that. You can have different fighting styles or ways to augment ones strikes etc.
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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Constant Beta?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:14 pm

Subutai wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:13 pm
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:58 pm
I'm gonna take the line "All art steals" and add to it with "But it doesn't cut and paste". Sure, Colonial Spain is used as an influence for Amn [...] but these are just things to help other people relate to something that was imagined in one dudes head. It's meant as a baseline, not a blue print.
I honestly don't think Amn, Calimshan, or any other part of the Forgotten Realms, including Arelith, is anywhere approaching cutting and pasting. In fact, that dislike of cutting and pasting is a large part of what I'm getting at. Monks are, and always have been, the closest thing DnD has to cutting and pasting. They have access to all kinds of weapons that aren't really part of any of the established settings. The weapons monks tend to use, and the new weapons being advocated for, aren't part of Ebberon, or Greyhawk, or the Faerunian part of Forgotten Realm. The only place they exist in Forgotten Realms, in fact, are the very obviously cut-and-pasted Wa and Kozakura and, to some extent, the slightly-less-obviously cut-and-pasted other parts of Kara-Tur.

I would never argue that monk should be made to mirror real life European monks (just play a cleric for that), but I would argue, strongly, that Arelithian monks shouldn't just be copy-pasted eastern Asian monks, either.
I'm not going to argue your points because they are all valid even if my agreement ranges from sorta to not really, but I do have to question why anyone would strongly argue against more weapon options. Is the idea of some dude reliving their storm shadow fantasies developed watching gi joe as a kid that tilting? There will be characters that use these things in a "leet rp friendly" fashion, and those that don't. Just like every other option that already exists on Arelith. Sometimes its just better to let the little things go by, something we all need to be reminded of from time to time.

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