A call to kindness & respect!!

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Anomandaris
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A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Anomandaris » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:31 am

This may be corny to say but let's all take Spyre's departure as inspiration to be better and nicer to one another? This is a game and a community. At the core of that is sharing experiences and having fun. There's so many talented, diverse people here with different opinions etc, which is what makes it a dynamic and wonderful experience.

Let's all take a moment to be grateful for what we have and remember to treat people with respect, even if we disagree or frankly don't like them.

Game on :D

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Twily » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:09 am

I second this.

This isn't the first time a developer has been burned out of building and supporting the server due to the hurtful comments players have made.


My statement to players saying these things is this:
Do you like Arelith existing?
If so, please just stop.
If not, please just leave and move on with your life.

One of these days there won't be someone who's willing to step up and fill the void that shows up with a dev steps down.
This will be especially true if people aren't treated with more respect than they have been shown in the past(both recent and distant).

Even this is disregarding the emotional toil it takes on the recipients of the abuse, which shouldn't be dismissed.

There's no shortage of reasons as to why you shouldn't behave crassly, regardless of whether it's for your own good or others; please just stop, you have no reason to continue it.

EDIT: Addition that I felt relevant

We as players have the power to make the thousands of hours the devs put into the server rewarding and meaningful, and to create an environment where they continue to hold the same passion and drive that lead them into stepping up in the first place.

We also have the power to take all of this away from them and to cripple their actual real world lives.


Do you truly believe that them going a direction YOU as a player in THEIR world disagree with actually justifies killing their motivation, harming their life, or even them dying?
If so - I hope you get banned, because that sort of behaviour is a large and direct violation of not only the Be Nice rule, but the entire foundation of Arelith: Community. It has no place here and will not be tolerated by myself nor others.


We should do what we can to make the work the devs put into the server rewarding. Even if we disagree with a change, we can still provide feedback in a way that isn't offensive. If you don't think this is possible: ask someone else for some help with writing it, or write up a draft and ask a well-minded friend to read it over first, or something like that.
Put thought into your posts before posting.
Last edited by Twily on Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:32 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:21 am

I wholeheartedly agree, and also with Twily's post (and edit as well)

It's sad that it's come to something as basic as common decency and respect apparently lacking from some people who are dissatisfied. Imagine acting in such a way at your workplace. It's childish and immature, frankly, and it has no place in our community.

Arelith is a place where we get to play for free because there are some people who are dedicating their time and energy to it. Some individuals may not like the direction Arelith is going, which happens, and that's okay. What's not okay is the kind of toxic behavior Spyre and no doubt others have experienced from these vile people.

There's plenty of reasons to be grateful for what we have, so let's do that, and let's cherish the people who are voluntarily working hard and taking time out of our day just so we can have an enjoyable place to be on.


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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Anomandaris » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:39 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:21 am
I wholeheartedly agree, and also with Twily's post (and edit as well)

It's sad that it's come to something as basic as common decency and respect apparently lacking from some people who are dissatisfied. Imagine acting in such a way at your workplace. It's childish and immature, frankly, and it has no place in our community.

Arelith is a place where we get to play for free because there are some people who are dedicating their time and energy to it. Some individuals may not like the direction Arelith is going, which happens, and that's okay. What's not okay is the kind of toxic behavior Spyre and no doubt others have experienced from these vile people.

There's plenty of reasons to be grateful for what we have, so let's do that, and let's cherish the people who are voluntarily working hard and taking time out of our day just so we can have an enjoyable place to be on.
I appreciate you chiming in and I agree in principle, but I don't want to vilify or alienate anyone who was "being toxic" as vile people. We all have our moments and bad days. Let's just recognize this, and work on it. And that requires that we also be forgiving and accepting when people aren't there best :)

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:49 am

Jordenk wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:39 am
I appreciate you chiming in and I agree in principle, but I don't want to vilify or alienate anyone who was "being toxic" as vile people. We all have our moments and bad days. Let's just recognize this, and work on it. And that requires that we also be forgiving and accepting when people aren't there best :)
While I under normal and milder circumstances would agree, telling someone they should end their own life is not simply a 'bad day'. That is toxic and vile beyond a doubt. And nothing short of a personal and sincere apology from the offender can even begin to rectify that.


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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Anomandaris » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:53 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:49 am
Jordenk wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:39 am
I appreciate you chiming in and I agree in principle, but I don't want to vilify or alienate anyone who was "being toxic" as vile people. We all have our moments and bad days. Let's just recognize this, and work on it. And that requires that we also be forgiving and accepting when people aren't there best :)
While I under normal and milder circumstances would agree, telling someone they should end their own life is not simply a 'bad day'. That is toxic and vile beyond a doubt. And nothing short of a personal and sincere apology from the offender can even begin to rectify that.
Fair.. that is some dark sh** :shock:

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by JubJub » Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:35 pm

I really hope that if there are players who really say those things that they are never welcomed back to the server. Thtat's taking a game way too far.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by ImWithThisGuy » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:05 pm

I'm in full agreement for encouraging common courtesy. It's a cornerstone in society, even if a neglected one.

It can be easy to forget that our actions effect others. Some of us may care, others may not. Some of us may not realise the degree we are doing it, or even doing it at all. However, it is the responsibility of every single person in a community to ensure it remains healthy, or at an even more basic level; functional.

Whether we admit it or not, words have power, and like all power they can be misused. Be mindful of what you say, because even if you dont care about hurting someone, you have no idea how your words might effect the whole community. One person might see them and pass it on, add their own words, or even twist yours; as has become common practice to do.

Unlike the rest of the world, Arelith is not every man for himself, and that is likely it's greatest quality. To degrade it is a terrible shame. So to those it may concern... Be more aware of what you are saying and why you are saying it. Don't spread rumors or slander, and dont insult people because you disagree with them. If you truly believe you are right, resorting to name calling or otherwise is a pretty pathetic way of showing it.

Keep more than yourself in mind, and don't deface a community that doesn't deserve it. I cant imagine why anyone would intentionally damage ours, or the people that work hard to improve and maintain it.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:48 pm

Twily wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:09 am
I second this.

This isn't the first time a developer has been burned out of building and supporting the server due to the hurtful comments players have made.


My statement to players saying these things is this:
Do you like Arelith existing?
If so, please just stop.
If not, please just leave and move on with your life.

One of these days there won't be someone who's willing to step up and fill the void that shows up with a dev steps down.
This will be especially true if people aren't treated with more respect than they have been shown in the past(both recent and distant).

Even this is disregarding the emotional toil it takes on the recipients of the abuse, which shouldn't be dismissed.

There's no shortage of reasons as to why you shouldn't behave crassly, regardless of whether it's for your own good or others; please just stop, you have no reason to continue it.
I really just want to echo this statement.

Whilst by feedback and second opinion and dialogue is welcome, viterol, hatred and entitlement is not.

Ultimatly - those who think that by bullying, and theatening the staff, they'll get what they want are likely wrong. I'd encourage them instead to seek out other servers, or start their own! All they accomplish otherwise is upsetting people who give a lot of free time to trying to make the server awsome. And, eventually, maybe even making the server unrunnable.

And if -that- is what they want, then I think frankly they're pretty poor people.
This too shall pass.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Beard Master Flex » Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:44 pm

I wish the forums were far more strict about what people could post and say and silenced volatile users more frequently. I don't think there is excusable cause for any level of discourse beyond polite, friendly and well intentioned.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:06 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:48 pm
Twily wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:09 am
I second this.

This isn't the first time a developer has been burned out of building and supporting the server due to the hurtful comments players have made.


My statement to players saying these things is this:
Do you like Arelith existing?
If so, please just stop.
If not, please just leave and move on with your life.

One of these days there won't be someone who's willing to step up and fill the void that shows up with a dev steps down.
This will be especially true if people aren't treated with more respect than they have been shown in the past(both recent and distant).

Even this is disregarding the emotional toil it takes on the recipients of the abuse, which shouldn't be dismissed.

There's no shortage of reasons as to why you shouldn't behave crassly, regardless of whether it's for your own good or others; please just stop, you have no reason to continue it.
I really just want to echo this statement.

Whilst by feedback and second opinion and dialogue is welcome, viterol, hatred and entitlement is not.

Ultimatly - those who think that by bullying, and theatening the staff, they'll get what they want are likely wrong. I'd encourage them instead to seek out other servers, or start their own! All they accomplish otherwise is upsetting people who give a lot of free time to trying to make the server awsome. And, eventually, maybe even making the server unrunnable.

And if -that- is what they want, then I think frankly they're pretty poor people.
I agree with the sentiments here, but, I'm going to be that guy, and ask- no names necessary- were the people who uttered such sentiments as go kill yourself banned? If not, why?

Something like this goes way beyond meta-gaming or exploiting mechanics for an advantage - it touches on the sentiment of attacking other People behind their screens with virtual anonymity. Spyre was amazing for the server, and this is a huge loss, but neither would it be okay if it was said to an unknown, brand new player who had yet to make a contribution to the server.

This isn't Halo. It's not 4chan. We don't need people encouraging An Heros because they think it's funny or harmless. For better or for worse, people who RP for escapism often have real world sentiments they're already trying to escape, and on top of that this is the literal antithesis- intentionally and maliciously- of rule number 1.

I'm all for freedom of speech in general but I'm also all for showing people who can't maintain a certain level of decorum the door permanently, and IMO, we have certainly done so for less.

I believe at the very least this should be treated the same as intentional harassment, which I believe Arelith has a zero-tolerance policy for.

I believe far too much grace is being offered to suggest that such individuals go find another server- IMO they should be forced to, with extreme prejudice and no warning.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Irongron » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:44 pm

Some great posts made here, but I wanted to briefly (or at least as briefly as possible) add something to this topic.

Those that bully, often do not realise they are doing so. Being critical of volunteers can be framed as 'speaking truth to power', without a thought of the people behind the screen, equally those that form elitist cliques in game, and seek to push others out, can often feel they are acting based upon sound justification.

Subjectivity, in short, is something we often cannot perceive until it is pointed out to us. As DMs/Staff we often have to deal with very bitter disuptes between players and factions, and it is generally the case that in the worse of these each side is so far down their respective rabbit hole that they do not, for a moment, see the perspective of those on the other side, truly feeling that these actions place a person beneath contempt, and that they themselves are the victims.

Bulling and ostracisation do not happen because of 'enemies among us' (though there definitely can be problematic individuals) but rather they are often a symptom in any enclosed community, to address this the answer isn't to point fingers at the perpetrators, but rather to educate ourselves on when our own words and actions feed into the problem. Anyone that has run or partaken in an anti-bullying workshop in a school or workplace will know this.

However ugly some people may get in game, or on the forums or Discord, I have always believed the Arelith community is a strong one, and full of genuinely nice individuals. I am forever proud of who we are.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:05 am

Irongron wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:44 pm

Those that bully, often do not realise they are doing so. Being critical of volunteers can be framed as 'speaking truth to power', without a thought of the people behind the screen, equally those that form elitist cliques in game, and seek to push others out, can often feel they are acting based upon sound justification.

Subjectivity, in short, is something we often cannot perceive until it is pointed out to us. As DMs/Staff we often have to deal with very bitter disuptes between players and factions, and it is generally the case that in the worse of these each side is so far down their respective rabbit hole that they do not, for a moment, see the perspective of those on the other side, truly feeling that these actions place a person beneath contempt, and that they themselves are the victims.
I understand the sentiment here, but I'd like to echo miss Evelyn's. At least in this circumstance, we're aren't talking about someone emotionally arguing their side of things, we're talking about someone getting emotional and using it to justify saying hurtful things that can have very real consequences, historically.

That Spyre resigned is sad, but ultimately it's a much less severe tragedy than that which could have resulted. The fact that such words COULD have caused actionable consequences of a worse calibre should be enough, imo, to deem someone unilaterally toxic to the server environment for uttering them at another player- if you can't get emotional without telling someone to go die, you obviously need separation from the environment before such toxic words reach the wrong person.

Spyre stepped down for his own good- not everyone is as stable, and while I'm not suggesting we're all a bunch of fragile snowflakes that will throw ourselves into fire at the mere provocation, I don't see any viable argument or perspective that such words are anything less than a blatant disregard of the well being and fun of your fellow players.

It's crossing the line from personal investment to personal attacks that can have extremely tragic consequences.

If you shoot at someone because you're mad, and you miss, you should still go to jail.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Ork » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:21 am

Let's not equivocate attempted murder with telling someone to kill themselves. I think the dramaticism and the witch-hunting needs to end here. This is not the thread for these things. If you feel so strongly, continue that discussion via PMs.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:00 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:21 am
Let's not equivocate attempted murder with telling someone to kill themselves. I think the dramaticism and the witch-hunting needs to end here. This is not the thread for these things. If you feel so strongly, continue that discussion via PMs.
I was drawing an analogy. My point is that it shouldn't get that extreme in the first place, and the fact that no one actually tried to kill anyone doesn't make it a witch hunt- the behavior is still entirely reprehensible. If attempted murder is the actual requirement for banning, then there's a long list of players to unban.

I don't even know who said it- nor do I care. Their identity is irrelevant to my stance. I wouldn't be permitted to remain if I spewed obscenities at staff or players, and I arguably think telling someone to die (outside of a joke between friends) is worse.

I think this is completely on topic- it speaks to the heart of what is and is not acceptable to say(not that I'm against honest discourse) and it's certainly not kind or nice.

We don't always agree, but I do think you genuinely want good things for the server, and I don't believe attempted murder is the ban line in your mind, so I'm genuinely interested in the perspective I'm missing here.

A witch hunt implies false accusations- here we have clear evidence of cause, effect, and consequence. I'm not sure in what scenario the consequences of those words could have had any positive impact, or how a player using them could be trying to make things better.

We care enough to ban people for sexy elven fun times (a policy that I'm not opposed to) "because young impressionable minds." Can we really say sexy elven fun times are more detrimental than this- especially if you apply the "young impressionable minds" logic to this subject?
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Ork » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:04 am

I believe these infractions fall under the Be Nice rule, and I also trust that these instances of abuse are being handled appropriately. Drawing light to them here in a public forum doesn't serve to expedite justice nor aid admins in ruling on these instances but it does rile the community to 1) seek the offender and 2) dispense "street justice" which isn't helpful.

I think we all know that saying to another person those words are irrevocably harmful, but the punishment for these words depends on a case-by-case basis that all administrative decisions have followed since the beginning of time. No tolerance bans aren't constructive and No Tolerance enforcement isn't fair either. There have been plenty of former "toxic" members of our community that have reformed and turned into highly productive roleplayers. Let's not jump the gun here and start demanding heads for scenarios we are not fully informed of.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Nevrus » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:21 am

I'll throw my two cents into this mix:

You will lose.

Does that seem incendiary, nihilistic, demeaning?

When you're roleplaying, you will lose.

The goal of roleplaying is not to win, but to have fun telling a story. Sometimes the good guy doesn't win. Sometimes the bad guy doesn't win. Sometimes the set dressing characters get destroyed in the crossfire. Sometimes the bad guy thinks they're the good guy, some times the good guy thinks the other good guy is a bad guy, sometimes the bad guy underestimates how much more bad another bad guy is.

You will lose.

Sometimes your dominant build gets nerfed. When this happens, you will lose more. Sometimes your enemy's build gets buffed. When this happens you will lose more. Sometimes you get involved in an antagonistic relationship with someone that's more clever, resourceful, or well-connected with you. When this happens, chances are you will lose.

Sometimes you'll lose your shop or your house that you have lived in for years. Sometimes you'll get booted out of factions you've run for years. Sometimes you'll get exiled from a city that you've lived in for years. Sometimes you'll employ a clever strategy that turns out to be against the rules, and the DMs will have to intervene.

Sometimes the dice aren't on your side. Either way...

You will lose.

And when you lose, you gain nothing by acting indignant other than making yourself feel more negatively than necessary, and ruining the fun of the people around you.

What you could do, on the other hand, is gain from it.

How does your character react to failure? Do they get revenge, or lose motivation and need cheering up? Do they pursue easy power to get stronger, do they go out in a blaze of glory? Are they put in a position where they can't escape the consequences of loss and have to live out those consequences for a few months?

A little bit of salt is understandable, but you'll have a much better time if you turn the other cheek and explore life as a loser for a while. Don't see your plan being foiled or your paladin being enslaved as the destruction of your fun - see it as a new angle to explore the community, your character, and yourself from.

But keep that all IC, dang it. Assume the other player doesn't have a personal vendetta against you unless proven otherwise. Assume their character thinks they know something you don't, or thinks they're doing the right thing for them, and not that the player decided one day to ruin your life and take away your toy because they don't like you. When they wipe the floor with you, send them a "good job!" instead of... Other things.

And don't assume the staff had anything to do with you losing. They don't pick winners and losers as long as rules are being followed. They can only kill you by spawning NPCs to murder you. If that's your thing, Titania has a few thousand spawns up her sleeve that she'd be more than happy to spawn until it stops amusing her.

We can all have fun killing each other, or we can all not have fun but still kill each other. It's up to YOU, yes you the one reading this, to make sure it's the former and not the latter.
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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Invader_Nym » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:35 am

A big problem nobody wants to talk about is that the nature of the campaign setting pits players against eachother. The game features a myriad of factions that are diametrically opposed to one another, essentially requiring that the players' characters hate eachother.

As long as we have diametrically opposed alignments and factions, we're going to have conflict. We can all say "let's keep IC and OOC separate," but we aren't robots that can perfectly compartmentalize and hermetically seal up our emotions, and while it sounds good in theory that we all draw a hard line between IC and OOC, theory and practice rarely align, and when they don't align, it usually means you have a junk theory.

I've been developing an online game for a while and I thought very carefully about the idea of emulating Arelith's underdark-vs-surface setup, and ultimately I chose not to implement it because I knew based on my observations playing here that mechanically implementing excuses for characters to be at eachother's throats is going to create a nasty, competitive environment. It's why I also did away with alignments, which are just another instantiation of the same principle.

I also think that the game, partly due to the nature of 3rd edition D&D, is really poorly balanced, and that's going to appeal to players that like to vie for power and lord it over others.

Speaking as a developer, my approach is that I never expect to bring about my vision of my game by trying to pressure my players in to playing "properly," because I'm the one who allowed them to play improperly in the first place. My goal is usually to circumvent or limit the opportunity to behave poorly by altering my game.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:30 am

I agree with the sentiments here, but, I'm going to be that guy, and ask- no names necessary- were the people who uttered such sentiments as go kill yourself banned? If not, why?
I don't know about Spyre's specific case. That's up to him to report. I can only hazard a guess that said people were already banned from the server, and voicing their displeasure at their banning to Spyre in such a way.

I will say that in other cases we have treated such words with extreme predjudice and have little to no tolerance for it on this server.
This too shall pass.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Aurian » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:07 am

Invader_Nym wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:35 am
A big problem nobody wants to talk about is that the nature of the campaign setting pits players against eachother. The game features a myriad of factions that are diametrically opposed to one another, essentially requiring that the players' characters hate eachother.

As long as we have diametrically opposed alignments and factions, we're going to have conflict. We can all say "let's keep IC and OOC separate," but we aren't robots that can perfectly compartmentalize and hermetically seal up our emotions, and while it sounds good in theory that we all draw a hard line between IC and OOC, theory and practice rarely align, and when they don't align, it usually means you have a junk theory.

I also think that the game, partly due to the nature of 3rd edition D&D, is really poorly balanced, and that's going to appeal to players that like to vie for power and lord it over others.
A healthy roleplaying environment needs conflict. The conflict can be against non-player monsters, but then you'd need a -very- active DM team that keeps those stories going at all times, since players wouldn't be able to develop them on their own. I think -most- players are perfectly able to keep IC and OOC separate - most seem to play surface characters along with their UD ones, too, and enjoy both settings.

But at the end of the day, some players will be at each other's throats no matter what you do - just look at World of Warcraft. They're going to bash each other's heads in over loot, over perceived insults, over jealousy and a plethora of other reasons. That's on the players, not the game, and there's nothing you can do to keep them out of the world you created.

On topic ... I never interacted with Spyre, but I wish I'd gotten the chance and wish him all the best. Life is important, family is important - take the time off you need, and maybe someday return as a player. <3

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Ork » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:08 pm

Nevrus wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:21 am
You will lose.
This was so well written, and I agree with every point. Every action, victory or failure, is on our individual shoulders to make meaningful. Everyone loses, a great roleplayer finds some way to change a loss into a gain.

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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:04 pm

Aurian wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:07 am
Invader_Nym wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:35 am
A big problem nobody wants to talk about is that the nature of the campaign setting pits players against eachother. The game features a myriad of factions that are diametrically opposed to one another, essentially requiring that the players' characters hate eachother.

As long as we have diametrically opposed alignments and factions, we're going to have conflict. We can all say "let's keep IC and OOC separate," but we aren't robots that can perfectly compartmentalize and hermetically seal up our emotions, and while it sounds good in theory that we all draw a hard line between IC and OOC, theory and practice rarely align, and when they don't align, it usually means you have a junk theory.

I also think that the game, partly due to the nature of 3rd edition D&D, is really poorly balanced, and that's going to appeal to players that like to vie for power and lord it over others.
A healthy roleplaying environment needs conflict. The conflict can be against non-player monsters, but then you'd need a -very- active DM team that keeps those stories going at all times, since players wouldn't be able to develop them on their own. I think -most- players are perfectly able to keep IC and OOC separate - most seem to play surface characters along with their UD ones, too, and enjoy both settings.

But at the end of the day, some players will be at each other's throats no matter what you do - just look at World of Warcraft. They're going to bash each other's heads in over loot, over perceived insults, over jealousy and a plethora of other reasons. That's on the players, not the game, and there's nothing you can do to keep them out of the world you created.

On topic ... I never interacted with Spyre, but I wish I'd gotten the chance and wish him all the best. Life is important, family is important - take the time off you need, and maybe someday return as a player. <3
I agree with Aurian here.

Ultimately we NEED character conflict. Character conflict provides fun and interesting stories for when DMs arn't around. Honestly some of the best stories I've been part of, player side, were down to character conflict!

What the server needs isn't to remove all Character Conflict, but rather for players to play with a ethos of good sportsmanship.

Also Nevrus's post is a thing of beauty and I adore it.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Invader_Nym
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:05 am

Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Invader_Nym » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:24 pm

I agree with Aurian here.

Ultimately we NEED character conflict. Character conflict provides fun and interesting stories for when DMs arn't around. Honestly some of the best stories I've been part of, player side, were down to character conflict!

What the server needs isn't to remove all Character Conflict, but rather for players to play with a ethos of good sportsmanship.

Also Nevrus's post is a thing of beauty and I adore it.
I think there's adequate room for conflict in the human psyche without the need to codify it with imaginary designations like alignment, and without creating two distinct teams (team UD vs team Surfacer) and pitting them against each other.

The kind of conflict we need is conflict of the interpersonal kind, not of the "I can tell after 10 seconds of dealing with you that you are different than me and I have a dogma that says that's sufficient for me to kill you" kind.

Interpersonal conflict is real human conflict, the latter kind reduces our fellow players to pre-defined NPCs that we have a license to kill.

'Be nice' has been a rule forever, and the evidence suggests that it's insufficient as a compelling force given the behavior of the players and the recent staff resignations.

Aurian
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:24 pm

Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Aurian » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:52 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:24 pm
I think there's adequate room for conflict in the human psyche without the need to codify it with imaginary designations like alignment, and without creating two distinct teams (team UD vs team Surfacer) and pitting them against each other.

The kind of conflict we need is conflict of the interpersonal kind, not of the "I can tell after 10 seconds of dealing with you that you are different than me and I have a dogma that says that's sufficient for me to kill you" kind.

Interpersonal conflict is real human conflict, the latter kind reduces our fellow players to pre-defined NPCs that we have a license to kill.

'Be nice' has been a rule forever, and the evidence suggests that it's insufficient as a compelling force given the behavior of the players and the recent staff resignations.
I personally enjoy the lore-appropriate 'team conflict' of UD versus Surface, and I'm sure many others do as well. Back when Everquest (1) was still a thing, I had characters on a purely PvE server, but enjoyed the racial team PvP server the most. I'll never forget the kind high level trolls who came sit on the newbie log to protect new dark elf characters against human and elf attacks. If it bothers you so much, why would you choose to play here instead of another PW that pits all of its players against NPC monsters? Let people have their fun. Asking for a change to something others enjoy isn't exactly 'playing nice', either. Live and let live. Different environments cater to people with different tastes.

The 'team thinking' has absolutely nothing to do with personal OOC attacks against DMs and other players. That kind of behavior is unacceptable, but happens all over the Internet, even in 'nice' online communities. Hell, I've seen people engage in flamewars and personal attacks on church sites. Or personal attacks against someone who simply shared a cooking recipe online. :roll:

All you can really do is enforce the etiquette rules, and boot the small minority that refuses to play nice.

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Peppermint
Posts: 1860
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Re: A call to kindness & respect!!

Post by Peppermint » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:33 pm

I just know I'm going to regret posting this, but here goes:

Matters like these are often more nuanced than we tend to give them credit for. You don't ever see posts about the "well-meaning, but flawed" individuals on Arelith. Someone is either a perfect exemplar of the community or they're literal scum. And if, god forbid, someone else should disagree with your assessment of a person in question, then they're also scum.

People are, by their very nature, tribal. Did someone wrong your friend? Then that person and all of their friends are monsters, even if it was just a misunderstanding. Do a group of people criticize someone that you respect? Then those people are all inherently negative and, surely, they probably express similar criticisms about everyone. Right?

But here's a cold, hard truth. It's blunt, and it's rude, but it's also important to understand moving forward: Spyre is not perfect. I've personally seen him engage in behavior that was dishonest, seemingly vindictive, and even downright inflammatory during his tenure as an admin. I'm not saying that to slam him, but to make a crucial point--namely, people that raise criticisms often have very valid concerns. They're not inherently negative, or necessarily malicious or untrustworthy. They're frustrated, and they feel they're owed better.

On the other hand.

I agree with the overall sentiment of the thread: people would do well to express their concerns better. Be constructive. Go through the proper channels. Raking someone over the coals and attacking them on a personal level is not helpful. No matter how much someone's conduct in a video game may frustrate you, they're still people, and it helps to treat them as such.

It's all too easy to draw lines in the sand and take sides. But if you really want to foster a sense of community, it's important to listen, regardless of where you stand.

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