Umberhulk changes

[Nymann]

Hello!!!

I am not entirely sure what I feel about this... It gives little room for so many classes to actually do something with those nasty hipsters... Like, I can never be sure to walk into my chamber anymore, because there is simply no way for me to spot a stealthy person now.

I think it should probably be changed to instead of giving true seeing, give it massive listen, in which Umberhulks originally have. (NwN made it true seeing) So those who directly build high for MS can dodge the umberhulk, but not your average lvl 20 now stealing a item every time you walk into your room, or during your important business meeting on how you can get richer with your fellow grumpy dwarves.

Eventually give the option for those with UMD dumb, to rebuild into lore. If one of the reasons you kept umd was to still be able using polymorph for stealth.

Thoughts?

Nymann

[JustMonika]

I appreciate cheap True Sight is something the Admins don't like, and I can respect that.

However each of the shapes have their own "Thing" to make them worth casting, and TS was Umberhulks. Can it be buffed in some way to replace this?

[Nobs]

or you know...just invest in spot and listen

[Diegovog]

Is there going to be an increase in spot items to balance this out?

[JustMonika]

or you know...just invest in spot and listen

How is that balancing out Umberhulks to make them a reasonable Polymorph choice over trolls?

[ActionReplay]

Is there going to be an increase in spot items to balance this out?

Removing TS is the balance as that one spell was better than the actual True Seeing spell and its 4th Circle. Yikes.

We could introduce something else for them though, if you got any ideas.

[Apokriphos]

Is there going to be an increase in spot items to balance this out?

Removing TS is the balance as that one spell was better than the actual True Seeing spell and its 4th Circle. Yikes.

We could introduce something else for them though, if you got any ideas.

I think they should have a large boost to listen to represent tremorsense. Like +20 skill boost.

[Mattamue]

Is there going to be an increase in spot items to balance this out?

Removing TS is the balance as that one spell was better than the actual True Seeing spell and its 4th Circle. Yikes.

We could introduce something else for them though, if you got any ideas.

For your consideration:

viewtopic.php?p=142374#p142374

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Blindsight% ... oot_radius

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Is there going to be an increase in spot items to balance this out?

Removing TS is the balance as that one spell was better than the actual True Seeing spell and its 4th Circle. Yikes.

We could introduce something else for them though, if you got any ideas.

With all due respect, this is only true because TS was over-enthusiastically beaten with the nerf bat like a red-headed step-child. The spell is worthless now except as a gimmicky way to boost spot for disguise checks - as a mage player, I'd rather slit my wrists than waste a sixth level spell for +15 spot, see invis, and ultravision. As a druid, I'd just turn into a dragon rather than slotting the 7th level spell. Also, a mage who turns into an umberhulk to spot you can't cast at you, and a melee who turns into an umberhulk to spot you can't do much of anything to you either since they sacrifice all their equipment to see you.

Normally, stealth can be prevented with environmental factors outside of detection scores- you can't do that in NWN, so you can't take RP steps to make a meeting room secure against spying, by say making the entire room brightly lit and removing anything around the entrance that might be used for cover.

The entire change was made predicated on the fact that it's "not fair" that a spell-cast can nullify all of someone's skill points, and it was completely overlooked that someone with hide and move silently can literally hump your face in a room with no cover to spy on you, even though that's just as cheesy. Not wanting it to break ALL stealth for turns/lvl is fair. Reducing it to a single round is ridiculously punitive, IMO.

I kind of hope there's an increase in the amount of characters with HiPS soon to force the shoe back on to the other foot. One round of stealth break is not enough to keep it from being cheesed, nor is it a proper return for a spell of its level, IMO.

[Kaeldre]

I like this change. I find the notion of people turning into dragons and umberhulks to spot stealthy characters mildly absurd. Maybe I am the only one.

We still have access to true sight, which can be 1-2 rounds of automatic detection for most casters. I admit that the mundane classes will have to resort to more expensive options unless they've invested into the appropriate skillsets.

[Ork]

This is a great change. If you want to secure your meeting space, invest in TS scrolls. Give stealthers the opportunity to wreck your roleplay - it'll generate more for everyone.

[_-HiM-_]

This is a great change. If you want to secure your meeting space, invest in TS scrolls. Give stealthers the opportunity to wreck your roleplay - it'll generate more for everyone.

Couldnt agree more

[White_935]

Definitely a fan of the change.

People randomly turning into umber hulks left and right to "spot".

I dislike the general NWN TS mechanics to begin with, as "One ability to delete them all" isn't exactly fun for any rogues.

Security mechanics, placeable alarms, things that forces both parties to act out..sure... but stealthers invest heavily for their ability, and it being something by vanilla can be deleted is a bit like saying we should all get a circle 1 scroll that gives crit immunity, knockdown immunity, disarm immunity.

In a stone, scissor, paper world A needs to counter B, by investing in the counter... everything SHOULD have a counter however, so things needs to be balanced with that in mind.

[Might-N-Magic]

Deleted by the wicked Winter Queen.

Rudeness is unnecessary.

~Atropos

[RedGiant]

Good lord people, you'd die on properly balanced NWN servers where True Sight doesn't even automatically reveal stealthers at all.

Server desperately needs to get with the times and be balanced like every other server and stop hand-holding babies.

You mean like the reams of empty servers that have died on the vine while Arelith has gone strong all these years?

"Nasty Hipsters" though...I'm so glad I came to this thread.

There is a reason why every third character is a shadowdancer these days. This change will only increase that.

[Wuthering]

I agree on investing in spot (and love the umberhulk change) but calling people who disagree with you "babies" is not a good look.

Also "balance" is a pretty arbitrary concept. I don't think there's any server out there that really nails it completely. But regardless, I think there's a good chance the RP-before-PVP rule is one reason Arelith survived so long and is the most populous server.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

On another server where trueseeing is fully nerfed, I'd always offer my services as a detect character to ensure meetings were private. Nobody ever hired me for it, they just complained about stealth on the forums.

Here on this server, I offer my services as an abjurer to block scryers for meetings, but few people ever take me up on it.

I wish that if people wanted private meetings and were involved in cloak and dagger roleplay, they'd go out and hire detect or anti-scry people. There's a lot of opportunities for RP, and for people to specialize in protection.

I understand the concern about sneaks entering your home behind you without an easier way to detect, however I'm hoping this means quarter lockpicking can be removed, since thieves potentially will have an easier time breaking into places and the owner will have to be present for the thieves to get in.

[Nobs]

i can hit over 100 listen with ez on my toon if my bard pall is around if im alone it can still be over 80 with just 2 buffs...

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't know what to say in this thread, because on one hand I am all for nerfing TS the whole way but on the other in my (admittedly limited) experience with getting stealth looted it added absolutely nothing to the story, just had me shy a few hundred thousand on gold.


I guess I could have said nothing, but where is the fun in that.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

i can hit over 100 listen with ez on my toon if my bard pall is around if im alone it can still be over 80 with just 2 buffs...

With HIPS, I can wear full plate, tower shield, and have -5 hide/ms, and when I use hips your 100 detection means nothing- I will still vanish from your screen and break your entire action queue if targeting me is a part of it.

This is an engine limitation, and the only fix is to preemptively cast TS when dealing with HIPS- which is no longer possible (1 round duration).

Edit: Time to roll a shadow mage, I guess.

[-XXX-]

Removing TS is the balance as that one spell was better than the actual True Seeing spell and its 4th Circle. Yikes.

Same's true for stealth as a concept the way it was implemented in NWN in the first place (and you get it at lvl 1). Will you be nerfing it too?

We could introduce something else for them though, if you got any ideas.

Premonition granting + 4x[Caster Level] spot/listen

[Dreams]

Removing Umberhulk TS was a good move.

As things are now, this is well-balanced. People can still use TS to have a 100% chance to see sneakers (something often removed from most servers). You can buff your spot or your listen with items in game, it is very easy to have enough to spot/hear most people. Build for detection or hire someone who does. This is a very equal situation of Investment vs Investment for stealth in general.

HiPS doesn't really factor into it in a big way because if someone is using HiPS and you're using an Umberhulk to see them, by the time you've shifted/unshifted/chased and get to them, they're about to HiPS again. It isn't a meaningful thing. Umberhulk was really only good at checking 'Is anyone watching me right now?' or 'Is someone following me into my quarters?' and for that you still have True Sight.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Just expressing my approval. Made Diviners a lot more important to have around. While perhaps not the original point, this change has added unexpected benefits to the spirit of cooperation. It is a good change for certain.

[monkeywithstick]

Honestly, I'm not overly fussed by the balance implications.
It is certainly still possible to have an impregnable meeting if you are careful.
Two rounds of visibility between hips is plenty to get a disabling spell or KD on the sneak. Most PvP fights are decided if not over in this amount of time anyway tbh.

It will be super nice not to see people casually transforming into umber hulks for sneak detection though. That had become rather farcical.

[Kuma]

i mostly just hated seeing people turn into literal monsters, even in civilised areas, with a cheap and accessible wand, when they suspected someone was stealthing. it looks absolutely insane.

as to "replacing" the TS on umber hulk with something to keep all the other polymorph shapes "useful", i genuinely struggle to think of mechanically viable uses for the other shapes. polymorph spells aren't that great in NWN, and haven't been altered beyond TS removal by arelith.