A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

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RollerToaster
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A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by RollerToaster » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:48 pm

So I've been thinking about how PvP just leads to characters dying and a very stunted RP experience, and wondered if there was a way it could be made a little more interactive. With the chaos of combat and the fact that everything is done in realtime means it is next to impossible to have meaningful RP once a fight has broken loose. My idea would be to add a "safety net" to PvP fights so that killing another player is a conscious descision, and that not all fights have to result in a death.

What do I mean exactly? So when your character "dies" in PvP you will always fall to the floor into the bleeding-out/recovery state. The other party can decide what they want to do with you. Will they finish you off? Will they save you? Will they leave you to your fate? It opens up more RP oppotunites since both parties will still be able to interact with each other before death.

Examples:
[*]An evil character defeats you and gloats about their plans before finishing you off.
[*]Bandits ambush you and after a fight take some valuables leaving you for dead on the road.
[*]A party stops an evil group and tries to question a survivor about their plans.
[*]A coward begs for mercy from the one who beat them.
[*]A tavern brawl breaks out leaving people bruised and broken, but still alive.
[*]A warlord mercilessly beats up a subordinate for questioning or failing them.
[*]Etc

Some extra protection would likely need to be added to this state to avoid AOE just passively killing people, or giant crits just insta killing people. Perhaps all characters could be given an "execute" skill which they could use on players, which would be the only way to finish of a player to avoid accidental deaths. There would also likely need to be a debuff added to someone being saved in this state since it could be abused if you could freely bring people back in the middle of a fight.

In terms of rules I think getting "downed" should count as dying for the 24hour rule. I'm not sure whether parties should have to make their intent to kill known before combat, or should anyone engaging in combat just assume if they go down they will be killed by the other party.

My aim of this change is not to promote more PvP fights, but to expand the number of interactions players get in fights as they are now.

What do people think of this idea?

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:04 pm

I like the idea in theory, the only thing I would worry about is the guy who is so overcome with rage after loosing in pvp he's on the ground blurting stuff and ruining what might be an otherwise epic scene. This would take some work and a good amount of thought before it could get implemented I'm sure.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Good Character » Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:11 pm

My only current issues are how effectively this works in big PvP battles, and how the losing character might stall the debuff timer (if there is one) to be brought back up by an ally.

What if you don't have time to interact with them due to the ensuing battle? How long will the debuff last?

I personally suggest the debuff be permanent, then you have two options: 1) You can choose to accept the death and be sent to the fugue state, or 2) Another player can use a command on you that allows them to heal you to 1 HP after 30 seconds. It will give a warning that says "Player is stabilizing X". That gives the winning character time and notice to react.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Nobs » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:41 pm

Would love something like this.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by White_935 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:33 pm

This already exists.. it's subdual isn't it ?

I do wish subdual was added to every weapon however.

Shiki
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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Shiki » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:46 pm

It sounds neat, but thinking it through means muddied waters when it comes to exactly what constitutes a 'loss' in PVP with regards to the current Rules of Engagement. Those waters really don't need any help being a little too obtuse for some folks to understand.

The effects are already there in the form of consenting to be resurrected by your opponent after a fight, or just backing down to them before the fight. By the time the beating has commenced, opportunities have already been given to do all of the things mentioned, or will be extended by the time the fight is over. Nothing stops you, yourself, asking if the other party wants to rez you and RP after you've lost the fight.

What this does do is remove some of the consent involved in things like a villain gloating over you. Further: -subdual mode exists and is very, very good for things like proving your strength relative to your opponent or beating people in a tavern brawl. It constitutes normal PVP as with any other form, and even if the loser is only knocked out, the effect is like losing a duel in an arena map. You don't die, but you should respect ROE and the 24 hour rule afterwards. You can consent to further RP (and generally you ought to in that case) but it still means that the 24 hour rule is in place, and you shouldn't fight anymore for a day or so, particularly with that player.

-subdual mode specifically allows you to use certain weapons or unarmed attacks to 'beat someone up' and when they reach 0 hitpoints they fall down for a few seconds, during which time the PC involved can be tied using rope and even blindfolded, I believe?

There's a lot of RP possible with it currently that is applicable to the ideas here.

I think in a lot of instances if your character is a coward you probably shouldn't be fighting in the first place, but start begging when violence is threatened instead. There are plenty of reasons why this isn't always going to be the case that are 100% fine. It does, however, remind me of a lot of poor behavior.

At the risk of being redundant, I've seen or participated in almost every situation listed using current RoE and current systems including Subdual mode and after PVP consent to RP and be resurrected. Introducing this idea would shift things away from giving consent to continue that RP (A lot of times you don't want to interact with the person who just kicked your butt) and would also remove a barrier to breaking PVP rules from players. You can't be salty and just jump back at someone upon standing up from bleedout-recovery when you're in the fugue.

Killing another player is already a conscious decision. Not all fights DO have to end in a death as it currently stands. I've been involved in a PVP where I was not killed by the victors. But if you enter a PVP as the aggressor, you have made the conscious decision to kill the opposite party. I don't think it's correct view PVP, killing another player character, as an option that needs a "safety-net" preventing death.

If you don't want to kill the opposing party, do not start PVP with that party. That is a conscious decision that you have to make.

Edit: Subdual to everything is a thing that's been accepted as a suggestion prior, and is likely on its way.

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DangerDolphin
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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by DangerDolphin » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:03 pm

IMO Subdual should be the default, but both the aggressor and defender should have the option to override that. If someone doesn't want to RP after losing PvP then let them choose to die, that way nothing is being forced on anyone.

RollerToaster
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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by RollerToaster » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:12 pm

DangerDolphin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:03 pm
IMO Subdual should be the default, but both the aggressor and defender should have the option to override that. If someone doesn't want to RP after losing PvP then let them choose to die, that way nothing is being forced on anyone.
If this Subdual is basically what I am talking about then I agree it should be on by default.

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:10 am

RollerToaster wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:12 pm
DangerDolphin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:03 pm
IMO Subdual should be the default, but both the aggressor and defender should have the option to override that. If someone doesn't want to RP after losing PvP then let them choose to die, that way nothing is being forced on anyone.
If this Subdual is basically what I am talking about then I agree it should be on by default.
It is the easiest way to do what you want, yes.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:31 pm

Currently going in subdual mode, which is limited to certain weapons, give a significant pebalty to AB unless you burn a feat on dirty fighting.

This is why most people do not do subdual mode.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Echohawk » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:52 pm

Subdual mode exists, and consent is always needed before raising and continuing to interact with someone who got downed.
There's too many hurt feelings of people's PVP/player ego that make any sort of shift in the dynamic dangerous.

If you can find someone who will go along with it then you can absolutely go ham. But the reason why much of the rules are cut and dry is because you can effectively do as much or as minimally required play pre/post as necessary.

Accidental deaths that the killer takes no responsibility for should be reported to ensure they're not doing this as a habit for lack of care for other players.
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Wrips
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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Wrips » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:54 pm

One thing I try to do is to avoid terms like "I killed that guy", instead I use more vague words like "felled them", "cut them down" and let the other party decide what truly happened to them, unless there is a strong rp reason that my character would like to have them dead.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Void » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:43 pm

RollerToaster wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:48 pm
. My idea would be to add a "safety net" to PvP fights so that killing another player is a conscious descision, and that not all fights have to result in a death.
There's already an option to beat people up without murdering them.

-subdual ( http://wiki.arelith.com/Console_command#-subdual )

Enables non-lethal combat.
DangerDolphin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:03 pm
IMO Subdual should be the default, but both the aggressor and defender should have the option to override that. If someone doesn't want to RP after losing PvP then let them choose to die, that way nothing is being forced on anyone.
It shouldn't be. If I play evil, the default will be "maximum lethal force, and then kill their family and burn down their house".
Maybe people should be informed about -subdual (and -description +temp), but it definitely shoudln't be on by default.

Additionally, there are no non-lethal explosions.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Nitro » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:26 pm

The reason people don't use subdual isn't because they're unaware, but because you're hamstringing yourself by using it. You either get an otherwise 100% useless feat or you hit with -4 AB, both of which are SIGNIFICANT downsides.

Honestly just make subdual available to all melee weapons with no penalties and it would be an attractive alternative to just killing someone and asking if they want to get raised to continue RP instead.

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DangerDolphin
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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by DangerDolphin » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:20 pm

NegInfinity wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:43 pm
DangerDolphin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:03 pm
IMO Subdual should be the default, but both the aggressor and defender should have the option to override that. If someone doesn't want to RP after losing PvP then let them choose to die, that way nothing is being forced on anyone.
It shouldn't be. If I play evil, the default will be "maximum lethal force, and then kill their family and burn down their house".
Maybe people should be informed about -subdual (and -description +temp), but it definitely shoudln't be on by default.

Additionally, there are no non-lethal explosions.
Then you override the setting to be lethal as I said. I'm not suggesting anyone be prevented from killing if they really want to, just that the default be switched over.

While I agree that someone being hit by a hellball and "being thrown free of the blast and knocked unconscious" is unlikely, in a world where magical protections exist and we have to constantly RP our way out of respawning writ bosses and people crashing in the middle of a confrontation, I don't think it's a huge stretch. Especially given that already happens inside arenas.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:57 pm

DangerDolphin wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:20 pm
NegInfinity wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:43 pm
DangerDolphin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:03 pm
IMO Subdual should be the default, but both the aggressor and defender should have the option to override that. If someone doesn't want to RP after losing PvP then let them choose to die, that way nothing is being forced on anyone.
It shouldn't be. If I play evil, the default will be "maximum lethal force, and then kill their family and burn down their house".
Maybe people should be informed about -subdual (and -description +temp), but it definitely shoudln't be on by default.

Additionally, there are no non-lethal explosions.
Then you override the setting to be lethal as I said. I'm not suggesting anyone be prevented from killing if they really want to, just that the default be switched over.

While I agree that someone being hit by a hellball and "being thrown free of the blast and knocked unconscious" is unlikely, in a world where magical protections exist and we have to constantly RP our way out of respawning writ bosses and people crashing in the middle of a confrontation, I don't think it's a huge stretch. Especially given that already happens inside arenas.
I'm going to agree with NI on this one. Part of the drawback of fighting to not kill someone is that it's harder to do - there are feats you can take in core to lessen/eliminate the penalties, but swinging your awesome +5 sword at someone to knock them out rather than cut them in half is hard and normally accompanied by a significant penalty- because being good is harder than being evil, and fighting to capture someone is harder than fighting to kill someone. That's not just an arbitrary penalty, it makes sense.

There are no magic spells that deal damage in non-lethal form unless it specifies such in the spell text or you take specific metamagic feats to make it happen. As a mage, if I want to subdue someone rather than melt their face off, it should be my job to regulate my damage and stop casting fireball at the target so someone else can subdue them, or my mage needs to learn how to swing a weapon.

I would possibly quit in disgust (exaggeration, but only moderately) if you told me I could subdual someone to 0 with a fireball, because that means other mages are going to do it, and that's not only not how it works, it doesn't make any sense.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

Nitro
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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Nitro » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:43 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:57 pm
I'm going to agree with NI on this one. Part of the drawback of fighting to not kill someone is that it's harder to do - there are feats you can take in core to lessen/eliminate the penalties, but swinging your awesome +5 sword at someone to knock them out rather than cut them in half is hard and normally accompanied by a significant penalty- because being good is harder than being evil, and fighting to capture someone is harder than fighting to kill someone. That's not just an arbitrary penalty, it makes sense.
Yeah ok, but in that case why would anyone ever use subdual mode instead of just killing someone and then raising them for capture RP? They both require consent anyway, and only one of them severely disadvantages you.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:45 am

Nitro wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:43 pm
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:57 pm
I'm going to agree with NI on this one. Part of the drawback of fighting to not kill someone is that it's harder to do - there are feats you can take in core to lessen/eliminate the penalties, but swinging your awesome +5 sword at someone to knock them out rather than cut them in half is hard and normally accompanied by a significant penalty- because being good is harder than being evil, and fighting to capture someone is harder than fighting to kill someone. That's not just an arbitrary penalty, it makes sense.
Yeah ok, but in that case why would anyone ever use subdual mode instead of just killing someone and then raising them for capture RP? They both require consent anyway, and only one of them severely disadvantages you.
Because knocking someone in the street unconscious carries much different implications and consequences for RP and atmosphere than gutting them like a fish and seeing them bleed out. Taking (and winning with) the disadvantage presents a good faith piece of evidence (the lack of the Fugue transition) that you're hoping to get something more out of the conflict than a 24 hour pass and a skull trophy to the other player, which may incline them to work with you in a more cooperative way IC for a time.

You also don't have to do the awkward corpse-portal-shuffle-raise; you can actually subdue/bind your prisoner and walk them somewhere, RP'ing with them along the way and allowing for the dynamic tension of the (likely unwilling, IC) captive narrative.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Nitro » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:52 am

Sure, you can spout all those virtues all you like, but at the end of the day the question is:
Why don't people use subdual?

And the answer is:
It's more convenient and less dangerous to kill and raise someone.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Void » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:56 am

DangerDolphin wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:20 pm
NegInfinity wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:43 pm
DangerDolphin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:03 pm
IMO Subdual should be the default, but both the aggressor and defender should have the option to override that. If someone doesn't want to RP after losing PvP then let them choose to die, that way nothing is being forced on anyone.
It shouldn't be. If I play evil, the default will be "maximum lethal force, and then kill their family and burn down their house".
Maybe people should be informed about -subdual (and -description +temp), but it definitely shoudln't be on by default.

Additionally, there are no non-lethal explosions.
Then you override the setting to be lethal as I said. I'm not suggesting anyone be prevented from killing if they really want to, just that the default be switched over.
The default behavior in nwn is that people die when killed. Arelith still gets newbies, so best to keep it as is, in accordance with principle of least astonishment. While -4 penalty from subdual isn't much (it is same as disarm/knockdown), at low levels sudden lose of AB will cause confusion. I'm also not sure if combat engine can discern between PVP and fighting with a monster and toggle AB penalty accordingly.
Nitro wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:43 pm
Yeah ok, but in that case why would anyone ever use subdual mode instead of just killing someone and then raising them for capture RP? They both require consent anyway, and only one of them severely disadvantages you.
Oath of non-violence, paladin oath, good aligned character, fear that person might not return (always a possibility, in the lore, and on arelith as well). Basically if your character is killing someone, then your character seriously wants them dead.

For all you know, every person your character tries to kill could be running about with Mark of Destiny and counter at 9 out of 10.
http://wiki.arelith.com/Mark_of_destiny
And, yeah, duties related to corpse cleanup, like Aelryn said...
Nitro wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:52 am
Sure, you can spout all those virtues all you like, but at the end of the day the question is:
Why don't people use subdual?

And the answer is:
Because it doesn't fit their character concept , or because they don't know that the option exists. (Seriosuly though, spawn area could use some "commonly used commands" sign. So many people don't know about -description +temp. )

If I had some sort of city guard char, I'd absolutely use it, when pressed.

Additionally, if you're in middle of nowhere and want to have a chat after beating the snot out of them, running to a temple will take way too much time compared to subdual.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Ork » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:20 am

I like subdual. I've used it sparingly. I would like to see its use broadened. Give us free range of weapons and allow us to narrate why the enemy went unconscious instead of dead.

My one issue with subdual is that it isn't made apparent that your character is "subdued". I wish that there was a OOC chat popup that read, "You have been subdued" so that all parties recognize what is exactly going on. Had an issue in Skaljard where people were pinging DMs because the goblin I subdued hadn't gotten up yet.

Make subdual available for all weapons (and spells)
Remove or reduce the AB penalty
Create more clear guideline rules around subdual and the 24/h rule, and ways in which players could cheese this ability

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Ascended Mage » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:53 am

Subdual mode is another feature that adds a lot of RP after fights. But with such powers comes responsibility.
Do you think what Arelith's casual and always so many new players ready to take and use such tools and not cause giant frustration upon defeated characters?
Honestly, I think not.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Wuthering » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:51 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:57 pm

I'm going to agree with NI on this one. Part of the drawback of fighting to not kill someone is that it's harder to do - there are feats you can take in core to lessen/eliminate the penalties, but swinging your awesome +5 sword at someone to knock them out rather than cut them in half is hard and normally accompanied by a significant penalty- because being good is harder than being evil, and fighting to capture someone is harder than fighting to kill someone. That's not just an arbitrary penalty, it makes sense.
Arguably the game's combat system is very primitive and doesn't allow for pulled punches. An epic warrior really should know how to swing that +5 sword with varying strength, only a total amateur or nearly insane berserker would be "all or nothing" with every swing. Why exactly can't that warrior suss that the opponent is almost down for the count and deliver the final blow as a swat to the head with the flat of his sword instead of beheading him? In PNP any good DM would allow it (maybe with a tiny chance of failure and lopping the head off anyway, but at least allow the attempt) but the game says every attack is full strength.

I like the idea of a point between dead and incapacitated. I think we die too much in this game. Characters in fantasy books and movies regularly get (effectively) taken to -10 HP only to pull through for not much more reason than their story isn't over yet, I think that's a healthier way to handle losing fights than back-from-death portals and cheap raises.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Curve » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:37 pm

Ascended Mage wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:53 am
Do you think what Arelith's casual and always so many new players ready to take and use such tools and not cause giant frustration upon defeated characters?
Adding a command for the subdued to either suicide or say no to being subdued could remove this issue. That being said, I do think people can handle the responsibility, people will rise to the occasion or it can be taken away.

My biggest issue with making subdual have no penalties is it becoming the standard for pvp, thus limiting the need to rp out of hostile situations. That and people getting it in their heads that subdual is the standard and if someone does not use it they are "bad rpers" who need to be reported.

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Re: A Stop-Gap Between Life and Death During PVP

Post by Void » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:58 am

Curve wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:37 pm
Ascended Mage wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:53 am
Do you think what Arelith's casual and always so many new players ready to take and use such tools and not cause giant frustration upon defeated characters?
Adding a command for the subdued to either suicide or say no to being subdued could remove this issue. That being said, I do think people can handle the responsibility, people will rise to the occasion or it can be taken away.

My biggest issue with making subdual have no penalties is it becoming the standard for pvp, thus limiting the need to rp out of hostile situations. That and people getting it in their heads that subdual is the standard and if someone does not use it they are "bad rpers" who need to be reported.
There's -unrelent which is used to resist being lassoed.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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