Remove outcast background; give evil humans and half-orcs the option to start in Andunor

[Void]

saw how things were before the tag, prefer how it is now

biggest problem i have is how to react IC to it, though. as far as i am aware, there is nothing explicitly explaining how this should be done.

There is, in outcast article on the wiki.
Basically you realize that every npc hates this guy, but are free to do whatever you want.
http://wiki.arelith.com/Outcast

[DangerDolphin]

I like the original suggestion. Tags are a mistake and encourage lazy RP.

Tags exist to avoid all sorts of cheating.

Like that champion chains. Without tags you can wear it, and remove it from your description, so PCs won't be upset.
Same goes for slave collars.

Bluff and Perform exist for a reason.

I actually like the Champions Belt and Radiant Heart ring. They are a choice to put on and make IC sense that people can see them. I would like to see more items like those.

Outcast and Pirate don't make much sense and bypass the need to RP to discover who a person is and where they come from.

As DM Fox linked, Irongron's response to UDers being able to see Outcast tags:

Allowing UDers to see the tag would effectively limit Andunor to visiting surfacers as I expect many would quickly become the target of PvP.

Finding out who is and isn't an outcast on the surface world can be achieved via espionage RP.

And we already know what Irongron said here is true, as it's exactly what happens to Outcasts, even in neutral locations like Sibayad. Outcast players are frequently subject to 2-line RP PvP by people who have never met or really investigated them.

[Blood on my Lips]

And we already know what Irongron said here is true, as it's exactly what happens to Outcasts, even in neutral locations like Sibayad. Outcast players are frequently subject to 2-line RP PvP by people who have never met or really investigated them.

This.

The first time I played an Outcast, before the tags, I got RP from surfacers. Now I just get cheap one-line dialogue before being attacked. I'm often hostiled before the dialogue even begins.

[Dr. B]

Okay. Thank you for your replies. I’m going to give a largely point by point reply to most of you. I will try to remain polite, but I will not beat around the bush in my criticisms.

Regarding Andunor being a trade city that can be belief of individiaul player and not actual state of the city (which is deceded by DM team and develoeprs).

Even if Andunor is a trade city, it is a chaotic evil trade city.

First, this is the pot calling the kettle black.

Second, Andunor is composed of two districts, both of which have been, at various points, under the sway of Lawful and Neutral Evil factions.

Meaning in order to be there value of character being alive should be higher than value of said character being enslaved, murdered, robbed, tortured, used a sacrifice or food and so on. This requires wealth, strength, connections, and a beginner character wouldn't have any.

I fail to see how this in any way refutes my claim that evil humans are tolerated in Andunor, even if it is true.

However, it would be reasonable to allow andunor start for evil character if it is gated beyond a Normal award (or greater award, depending on race).

This would cause an unhealthy drop in player numbers.

I like the original suggestion. Tags are a mistake and encourage lazy RP.

I don't think we should be removing or gating outcasts behind an award, Andunor is not a 'Drow City' and never has been. It's an Upperdark trading city, and trade and profit relies on being open to as many people as possible.

Thank you! Someone who gets it.

While I can certainly see the "lazy rp" side, choices should have consequences.

There are two claims being made in this (admittedly frequent) line of thought:

1. Playing a human in the underdark should have consequences.

2. “Tag-based” RP where you can examine someone and know their background is an acceptable means to bringing about those consequences.

Regarding 2, I don’t think the ends justify the means. Regarding 1, “consequences” should be reaped through your in-game conduct. If you are spotted by a surfacer in the Underdark, consorting with Underdarkers, that person now knows who you are, and may recognize you on the surface. Or if you join a raid, or otherwise go around terrorizing people or doing awful vicious things, or towing around fiends, or whatever, and people see you doing it, then yes, there should be consequences. But those consequences should be the result of find out in game information. They should be reaped as a result of things you do in game, that are learned in character, because this is a roleplaying server.

The major reason people choose Human Outcast over Drow is mechanical.

Please don’t make generalizations about other players like this. It’s ungenerous and unfair. I’ve played several human outcasts, and not in one case was it because of this. It’s because I like Andunor’s setting and roleplay. I’ve also played several UD race characters there, too.

In a perfect world, DMs and the playerbase work together to make reactions to Outcast PCs suitable as for their nature.

I’m going to throw a scenario: Bob is a human who lives in the Underdark. Joe lives on the surface. Bob goes to the surface to mine some resource, and Joe encounters him in the wilderness. Joe has never met Bob. Joe has never heard of Bob. Joe does not know where Bob comes from. What is the suitable reaction in this instance?

If Bob is traveling with drow, then perhaps it is reasonable for Joe to infer that Bob is evil, and that he consorts with drow, and for Joe to react to Bob in the appropriate manner, and to recall Joe if he runs into him in the future and say something like “I know you! You consort with drow!” Ditto if Bob were towing a demon, or wearing a symbol of Cyric, etc etc.

But assuming Joe is alone, and Bob has no identifying markers, then Joe shouldn’t know anything about Bob’s place of origin. Bob isn’t psychic, and he has to learn these things in-game.

Now, if Bob were to walk up to a group of Paladins and say “Hey guys! Let’s go hunting!”, then that would be an issue. DMs would be right to police that.

If Bob were to socialize in front of the Nomad with Lathandrites, that would be an issue. DMs would be right to police that.

And while DMs cannot be everywhere at once, putting a little neon sign above Bob’s head that says “Outcast!” is not the answer. The ends don't justify the means. Keep reading to the end of my post if you want to know why I think this.

DMs use the ambient world, NPCs, etc. to make Outcasts feel capital-letters Unwelcome, or justifiably paranoid that if their (obviously obscured) identity is revealed they might suffer consequences.

I’m saying we should get rid of outcasts. How Bob got to the UD is up to Bob’s player, provided Bob is evil and is roleplayed evilly.

Players would react to Outcast PCs in a mature way

Not if there weren’t any Outcasts, the removal of which I’m advocating.

neither instant leaping to disrespectful PVP in effort to "disregard" antagonist RP, or blindly accepting them out of an OOC-born conflict aversion.

Incidentally, this is another reason I favor the removal of the tag (and the associated background). It encourages a kind of “I’m going to RP minimally and then mash the PvP button” gameplay that is highly antithetical to creativity, interaction, imagination, and good storytelling.

Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world.

I agree. Implementing my suggestion might irk some people who think humans in the UD should have a rougher life. But I think the current, alternative solution is vastly worse.

Look, back in the day, probably before most of the people posting here started playing, people used to use the forums to interact in-game. There was a “Rumor” subforum and a “Message Board” subforum and such. Those got removed, and the DMs came down hard on anyone posting FOIG information on OOG platforms. RP quality on the server improved vastly. The current tag system represents a backslide towards these dark days where FOIG wasn’t a strict expectation. It seems the tides are turning.

There seems to be a prevailing sentiment among some players, DMs, and developers that Joe and Bob are supposed to roleplay a certain way. They are supposed to be hostile to one another, because Joe is from the Surface and Bob is from the Underdark. This point needs addressing. To my mind, it bespeaks a fundamental and profound confusion about what roleplaying is. When you roleplay, you do what your character would do (on Arelith, suitably constrained by the other four golden rules). The most we know in this scenario is that Bob is evil. What he does to Joe depends on that, and on further facts about his character. Bob could try to hide his evil nature. Bob could avoid Joe. Bob could try to enslave Joe. Bob and Joe could have a tense little stand off where they eye each other. What this encounter entails is an opportunity to be creative! There are countless myriad ways that this could play out! As long as the characters are both roleplaying their alignments, faiths, classes, personalities, IG knowledge, and so forth. Emphasis on the latter.

But the current system discourages said creativity. It boxes you in to a limited set of options designed to encourage “settlement vs settlement” conflict in the most shoehorned and tedious way.

Some more counterpoints, addressed:

“Well, if Bob doesn’t want Joe to know that he is from Andunor, Bob should wear a disguise!”

Why would Bob need a disguise to hide his status as a resident of Andunor if Joe doesn’t know who Bob is and has never heard of or met Bob? Generally speaking, people don’t know where other people came from unless they have some identifying features that give their place of origin away. Bob has none, so it makes no sense for Joe to know where he is from.

“Because Bob is an Outcast and Outcasts were ostracized from the surface.”

I’m advocating the removal of that system. Bob is now an evil human who lives in Andunor.

“Evil humans from Andunor should not be allowed to walk around on the surface without suffering consequences.”

Why? Why does the same point not apply to worshippers of evil deities? A tag indicating Bob’s place of origin makes as much sense as a tag stating a person’s faith, alignment, or status as a warlock, that is to say, it makes no sense.

It sucks, but the tag was needed so that people could treat them as they're meant to be treated.

How are they meant to be treated? Suppose my suggestion were implemented and the concept of “outcasts” was removed. How are evil humans living in the Underdark “meant” to be treated? And why? Tell me. I want to know. I’ve already given my answer: A character should treat a denizen from the underdark in whatever way it makes sense for that character to treat them. If the character has no IG knowledge of their residency in the Underdark, then they should react to them on the basis of whatever FOIG information they have: their appearance, their description, and their behavior. If the character DOES have IG knowledge, then they should react to them as their character would react to someone who they know is a denizen of Andunor. That’s all.

See also Irongron's thoughts on the matter as reference:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=25991&p=210323

Thank you.

I am not sure if this is directed to me, but please see my original post. I’m saying we should remove Outcasts, so Irongron’s post here is moot. Whether your character lives in the Underdark because they got ostracized or for some other reason is a choice that you, the player who is crafting the character, makes.

Tags exist to avoid all sorts of cheating.

Like that champion chains. Without tags you can wear it, and remove it from your description, so PCs won't be upset.
Same goes for slave collars.

Bluff and Perform exist for a reason.

The Champion’s Belt is an item that your character is visibly wearing, so at least in that case there is some justification for the tag. If the “Outcast” background were removed as per my suggestion, what sort of cheating do you think would happen? Cheating on Arelith, as I understand it, involves using mechanical exploits or applying OOC knowledge that should be discovered in game. In that regard, the Outcast tag is much closer, conceptually, to cheating than its removal would be. All the more reason to implement my suggestion.

I am going to close here with some thoughts on the perfect.

My friends on the other side of this debate have argued that the current system is not perfect.

By that token, I acknowledge that what I am advocating here is not perfect, either. Humans and half-orcs dwelling in Andunor still enjoy a fair amount of perks.

It's a not question of what would be perfect. It's a question of what is worse.

Having "tags" that communicate information about a person's place of origin are worse than the aforementioned perks. The latter confer advantages that not everyone enjoys. The former does violence to this server's intention and purpose, which is to encourage immersive, creative, fun roleplay.

It discourages immersion by delivering IC information through an OOC mechanism.

It discourages creativity by shoehorning encounters between certain players into a preset and rigid set of cliches.

It discourages fun for the reasons explained by Blood on My Lips, by encouraging terse, minimal exchanges that are little more than a pretense for hitting the PvP button.

I implore you: remove the Outcast background from character creation, and the Outcast tags from character's descriptions. Give evil humans and half-orcs the option to start in Andunor. If they are to be persecuted while on the surface, it must be on the basis of things they have done in game.

[Xerah]

Huge fan of the tags. It would be a disaster to remove them.

[Void]

Outcast and Pirate don't make much sense and bypass the need to RP to discover who a person is and where they come from.

I already linked outcast article two times, here's the third:
http://wiki.arelith.com/Outcast
You recognize outcast from behavior of NPCs.

Pirates have their tatoos, and those are gated by lore checks. Fairly high lore checks, by the way.
viewtopic.php?f=23&p=217531#p217531

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Stuff about outcasts and player population

Apologies for the gross paraphrase, but I feel this mentality of human outcasts (or rather evil humans if your idea goes through) being necessary for UD population to be something we can easily put to a temporary test on. Like arelith is not the same server it use to be, and doing something like a minor reward for it might encourage might just get more monsters rolled up.

[Void]

It's a not question of what would be perfect. It's a question of what is worse.

Your proposition would be worse than existing situation. As you remove one more background for no benefit, and want to allow ALL non-good humans into andunor which will impact believability of the city negatively. By the way, gating access to andunor behind normal reward while still allowing outcast is a good compromise, in my opinion. Whoever wants to start as non-outcast can do it by spending a reward and the old way is still available.

It was already outlined by previous posters that when outcast tags weren't a thing, it was simply ignored. Given that a significant number of players gravitate towards being friendly to all, it is hardly surprising. In description of outcast (which I already linked) it is explained that it is derived from behavior of npcs. It would be problematic to properly script every single npc to pass rumors about "Bob the Horrible", and spit at Bob for 1d6 sonic damage every time he passes by. Hence the tag. It is a compromise.

It also doesn't really shoehorn a thing. Options for an outcast background, mentioned in aforemented article is that outcast is actually framed by a powerful enemy. Except whoever is hostile to the outcast believes the information said enemy spread. Likewise, whoever is reading the tag derives that from the reactions of npcs in surroundings, and given how infamous the character is, the NPCs KNOW.

The problem here is that it is impossible to script all the npc rumors, disgusted expression and so on, so in the end the burden of providing explanation of knowledge is placed on whoever is examining the character, along with decision regarding what to do about it.

In situation where you've run into an unpleasant crowd, see if rules are broken, and if they are, report. And try to interact with different people next time.

[Dr. B]

As you remove one more background for no benefit, and want to allow ALL non-good humans into andunor which will impact believability of the city negatively.

This is not what I want, and I do not know why you are attributing it to me.

It was already outlined by previous posters that when outcast tags weren't a thing, it was simply ignored. Given that a significant number of players gravitate towards being friendly to all, it is hardly surprising. In description of outcast (which I already linked) it is explained that it is derived from behavior of npcs. It would be problematic to properly script every single npc to pass rumors about "Bob the Horrible", and spit at Bob for 1d6 sonic damage every time he passes by. Hence the tag. It is a compromise.

Did I mention I want to remove the outcast background, along with the notion that all evil humans and half-orcs starting in the Underdark are there because they got ostracized from the surface of Arelith? I may have underemphasized that point, both when I wrote it in bold letters at the beginning of my first post, and mentioned it numerous times thereafter.

The problem here is that it is impossible to script all the npc rumors, disgusted expression and so on, so in the end the burden of providing explanation of knowledge is placed on whoever is examining the character, along with decision regarding what to do about it.

If my character hears a rumor from an NPC, or from a PC, or anyone, that rumor has to be transmitted to my character in game, during a conversation with that character, or on a message board. My character has to either hear it spoken or read it on a message board. That's how FOIG works, or at least how it is supposed to work. Either way, there would be no need for it if THE OUTCAST BACKGROUND WERE REMOVED.

Stuff about outcasts and player population

Apologies for the gross paraphrase, but I feel this mentality of human outcasts (or rather evil humans if your idea goes through) being necessary for UD population to be something we can easily put to a temporary test on. Like arelith is not the same server it use to be, and doing something like a minor reward for it might encourage might just get more monsters rolled up.

To be fair, if I had to choose, I would prefer gating them behind an award over the current tag system. The latter is just truly carcinogenic, from a roleplay perspective.

[Void]

Did I mention I want to remove the outcast background, along with the notion that all evil humans and half-orcs starting in the Underdark are there because they got ostracized from the surface of Arelith? I may have underemphasized that point, both when I wrote it in bold letters at the beginning of my first post, and mentioned it numerous times thereafter.

So you want to kill the thing other people are currently using. Cool. That is worse by default.

If my character hears a rumor from an NPC, or from a PC, or anyone, that rumor has to be transmitted to my
...

This is not always possible. The game is a game and has its constraints. For example, your character somehow gains levels and learns new techniques without a trainer. Or, by investing points into spellcraft, somehow starts recognizing magic on sight. It is also impossible to befriend Luthien from mercantile building and drag him on an adventure, making him your party member. And, unfortunatley, other people can't visit your character's homeland, as it does not exist in the game world as a location that can be visited.

It is important to recognize situations where you need to fill the gaps in the presentation with acting and imagination. Meaning you should come up with explanations on spot when someone starts asking you how exactly you've learned spellcraft. This is one of those situations.

Outcast is a high challenge background that allows you to play someone reviled throughout the isle. If you're using it to start in Andunor, then that's probably not what it is supposed to be. I'd suggest "Slave" background instead.

---

I also wish people rolled with consequences more often....

[Dr. B]

This is not always possible. The game is a game and has its constraints. For example, your character somehow gains levels and learns new techniques without a trainer. Or, by investing points into spellcraft, somehow starts recognizing magic on sight. It is also impossible to befriend Luthien from mercantile building and drag him on an adventure, making him your party member. And, unfortunatley, other people can't visit your character's homeland, as it does not exist in the game world as a location that can be visited.

We're talking about information about other people's characters. There are important differences between that and the examples you're providing. For one, there is great difficulty in realistically accounting for the fact that everyone on the surface is a repository of information on who the outcasts are, what they look like, and what they did. Then there's the fact that the mechanic is a serious breach of the principle that information about other PCs should be discovered in game. There are many good reasons for that principle; I won't go into them here, though I did touch on them considerably in an earlier post.

I also wish people rolled with the consequences...

Please stop implying that I'm posting this because my outcast got killed by surfacers. None of my outcasts have been caught, and the prospect of that happening is not why I find this mechanic so noxious.

So you want to kill the thing other people are currently using. Cool. That is worse by default.

I don't even know what this means. Are you saying I'm in favor of deleting current outcast PCs? I'm not. Under what I'm proposing, their tags would be removed from their description. Furthermore, the option to pick "Outcast" from the list of backgrounds at character creation would be gone, and upon clicking the big door in the entry area, evil humans and half-orcs would be able to select Andunor as their starting location. I explained this at the very beginning of my original post, which you did not read.

[Ork]

Outcast is a high challenge background that allows you to play someone reviled throughout the isle. If you're using it to start in Andunor, then that's probably not what it is supposed to be. I'd suggest "Slave" background instead.

Starting in Andunor is the reason the background exists.

I think Dr. B makes a compelling argument that some of the more gamey aspects of Arelith aren't adding to the server.

[Void]

We're talking about information about other people's characters. There are important differences between that and the examples you're providing.

Please read the article on outcast on arelith wiki. It explains where the recognition comes from.

The only thing you can reasonably request is that outcast status cannot be discovered by your character when there's no npc in sight.

However, this is not technically feasible.

Difficulty wise it is in the same ballpark as having visible nameplates only for people whose names your character learned through IC interaction.

I don't even know what this means.

It means that killing off a cool background with heavy consequences is worse than not killing it. As you're shutting down an option to be reviled by everybody and not providing a decent replacement for it.

-----

Outcast is a high challenge background that allows you to play someone reviled throughout the isle. If you're using it to start in Andunor, then that's probably not what it is supposed to be. I'd suggest "Slave" background instead.

Starting in Andunor is the reason the background exists.

I think Dr. B makes a compelling argument that some of the more gamey aspects of Arelith aren't adding to the server.

I believe that using Outcast to start in Andunor is not what the background is supposed to represent. And I do not see the argument as compelling.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I've said before I dislike the system a lot. It causes people to not take evil people seriously if they're not an outcast. And I've seen people basically say "NPCs won't care that I'm here, I'm not an outcast!" I could whip out a screenshot of someone saying it right now and block out names.

A lot of DM time is spent on dealing with players reporting stuff, and I've heard more than enough people complain and want people to be forced to have outcast tags because they RP in the Underdark. Instead, imagine if that DM time was spent playing NPC and working towards setting enforcement. Perhaps the players of a settlement don't care that a cult is undermining it, what if groups like the Harpers were able to report things to NPCs who could do something about it. I think there's too much player agency, because when purely left to players, most people don't want to be antagonistic. Most people just want to socialize and not cause waves. And there's not realistically always enough of a player guard force for a town. It would be useful if people could report crimes to an NPC if player guards were severely lacking.

I think an issue is there's a lot of focus on punishing monsters/outcasts for being too social, and not enough focus on dealing with "normal" people being too huggy and accepting. If "normal" people were more intolerant, then social monsters wouldn't be a problem, because people being hostile to them would be normal and not the exception. The biggest problem that conflict faces is apathy from "normal" people towards bad things. I've seen non-outcast villains brushed off because they were friendly and nice. And then they went and did really evil things. And after that, everyone conveniently pretends it didn't happen, and nobody learns from it.

I think it's a player attitude thing, and no amount of having tags to identify good or bad guys will ever fix it. I think that as long as this attitude thing is a problem, adding more tags will just make it worse. Because the problem people that it's meant to curb will keep doing what they do, and all of their friends will continue to ignore it and pretend it's not a problem, and people will just keep finding ways around all of these tags.

I realize I'm part of this problem. My character tries to get people to care about things, "He has a BEAST BELT, why don't you care! She socializes with PIRATES and OUTCASTS, why don't you care!," but a large portion of the problem is trying to get through people's apathy. And a lot of people just don't want to react, they don't want to do anything but socialize. I'm not quite sure how to deal with it, or how to approach making things better. The server has a lot of really cool cloak and dagger RP opportunities, but without anyone being willing to act on information, there's not a whole lot that can be done with it. It's been very frustrating for me at times, having discovered villainous plots and having absolutely nobody who will take it seriously.



tl;dr:
Remove outcast system.
Remove some player agency. Have NPCs that can be reported to, and have NPCs react to issues. Make spy RP more meaningful if there are places information can go to.
Focus on dealing with huggy RP on the surface. Reward setting enforcement RP. Do things to try and change peoples' attitudes as a whole. Maybe even enable monsters/villian characters if they want to infiltrate "normal" people groups and use their acceptance against them. Make a lot of noise if people being accepting where they shouldn't be ends up causing a lot of issues.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

As promised, a screenshot of someone using outcast tags IC.



This right here is the problem. People use these tags to come up with all kinds of justifications as to why evil characters aren't evil, and it's really frustrating to navigate around when absolutely everyone is apathetic.

[Void]

As promised, a screenshot of someone using outcast tags IC.



This right here is the problem. People use these tags to come up with all kinds of justifications as to why evil characters aren't evil, and it's really frustrating to navigate around when absolutely everyone is apathetic.

If that's an IC response and not an OOC chatter then you'd pretty much need to explain why a character is not allowed to think this way.

A reasonable possible explanation (given lack of context) is that "Mila" is lawful evil.

[strong yeet]

I would rather there be no humans (or half-orcs? But we all know who this thread is really about.) in the Underdark than to have them be existent there absent the Outcast system, if I am to be frank.

Now I didn't always think this way, of course. Over the years I've seen a lot of outcast PCs. I've seen a lot of these PCs who, whether or not the system of outcast exists or not, frankly don't act accordingly to the very basic demands of the setting. They lend the fact that they are dwellers among monsters, drow, and worse no real credence, mingle freely (in more ways than one) with surface good/neutral-aligned PCs under only the barest pretense of ulterior motive.

This as you might imagine informs my opinion to a rather severe degree, and I'd say justifiably; it's impossible to react to stuff like the irrational rationally, especially when the irrational had such a long-running (and even still, to a much lesser degree today) hold on the server zeitgeist of how such characters were supposed to be perceived.

I'm not really happy to say that I have a completely corroded trust in the playerbase's ability to handle freedom like that, without some kind of significant shift in how DMs view and handle unfavourable or setting-deleterious roleplay. And while, yes, I do detest the system of tags and things, I think I would detest a lot more a shift in the DM team's role that sees them become both a rewarding and a punitive hand for "bad" RP.

Also, unrelatedly, I am not Grim Yeeter! That is someone else. I've noticed he likes to talk a lot about the mechanical side of the server, while I have pretty much given up on that subject.

[Dr. B]

It means that killing off a cool background with heavy consequences is worse than not killing it. As you're shutting down an option to be reviled by everybody and not providing a decent replacement for it.

If you want to be renowned on the surface as a villain then you should earn that reputation in game. Go on raids, enslave people, capture and torture them, do experiments, and so on. Do these things in game. There is plenty of opportunity for that. The game exists for that purpose: you create a narrative which you act out in game, and your choices in game have consequences that will affect how people react to you.

I’ve looked at that Arelith Wiki article many times, often with a cringe on my face. Tell me, how does someone who is only level 2 earn a reputation as an “Arch Villain”? And for that matter, what the heck is “Hapless” doing in there? I thought Outcasts were supposed to be cast out because they did things that were evil. The current system is so very, very bizarre on so many levels that I am almost convinced that the people who support it must be from another planet.

I believe that using Outcast to start in Andunor is not what the background is supposed to represent.

If, in 2014, when Andunor was introduced, Mithreas had merely provided an option for evil half orcs and humans to start in Andunor, rather than an “Outcast” background, we would not be having this conversation. Yma23 would never have made a post calling for tags for outcast characters, and the suggestion would never have been implemented.

[Void]

<snip>

They make a pact with a fiend and get caught red handed.
They experiment with necromancy and get caught red handed.
Check the table at the end of the article. Apply common sense when necessary.

Grumpy wrote a good explanation couple of days ago, do take a look at it:
posting.php?mode=quote&f=37&p=217344

A small clarification - Outcasts are outcasts not neccesarly because they are 'the most evil evil' (if so there would be no neutral ones) but because they've done somethign which can be seen to be socially unacceptable, or reputed to have done something. This opens up a fair few more possiblities.

Here's a suggestion for how to rp the whole matter.
Only those who are citizens of a settlment can recognise outcasts. So...

Consider it to be 'mild word of mouth,' from the npcs. Maybe they themselves don't quite know why Such-and-such is an Outcast, why he's so reviled he had to flee into the dark, but they do know that he/she did /something./

When Bob the Outcast walks into town, mothers grab their children and hurry them indoors. Men spit at Bob, and move across the road to avoid him. Washerwomen mutter behind their palms, and chortle to one another. Taverns go quiet when Bob enters, and the barman scowles, refusing to serve him. Some say Bob is a necromancer. Some say he stole a horse. Other say he murdered his brother. A few mutter he did -terrible- things with a certain goat named Nancy. No one is sure what, but no one wants him in their town, and instead of owning up to itlike a real man, he scurries underground to be with the drow, the goblins, the bugbears, the worst of the worst. That's the crowd Bob hangs out with. Bob is bad news.

By the way, if outcast detection is restricted to settlement dwellers only, that explains the source of knowledge.
Realistically speaking, you aren't online 24/7, and the time you aren't playing is significant. Your character goes out to adventure 1..2 days out of 10, and the rest of the time the only thing to do is mingling with npcs.
http://wiki.arelith.com/Time

[Party in the forest at midnight]

As promised, a screenshot of someone using outcast tags IC.



This right here is the problem. People use these tags to come up with all kinds of justifications as to why evil characters aren't evil, and it's really frustrating to navigate around when absolutely everyone is apathetic.

If that's an IC response and not an OOC chatter then you'd pretty much need to explain why a character is not allowed to think this way.

A reasonable possible explanation (given lack of context) is that "Mila" is lawful evil.

Context is Mila Brown is the NPC that deals with a lot of administrative interactions in the Arcane Tower and is notable for booting outcasts out. This was in reference to a character that had many Andunorian ties and socialized below regularly. The screenshot is someone saying that because this person does not have outcast tags, he can go wherever he wants, and there's nothing the paladin questioning him over it can do about it.

This is the attitude issue I'm talking about. It's frustrating to encounter this kind of apathy as regularly as I do. And I don't mean from lawless places like Sibayad-- Sibayad is exactly how it should be, and I think it's great that people are holding people accountable for being there. I mean from "normal people" places like settlements, where people don't care if pirates/outcasts/monsters are around as long as they're friendly. Where people don't care if people are highly affiliated with villainous groups as long as they're friendly. I don't think any level of having tags will ever fix it as long as people choose to keep ignoring the tags. All the tags do is make things more themepark-ish and give more loopholes for social RPers to use to keep doing their thing.

This is why my recommended fix would revolve around trying to change player attitudes. To remove the whole "omg ur a bigot/racist" culture. But most of all, enable people more who want to try and address these issues IC.

[-XXX-]

Looks like people are getting too concerned with the RP of others rather than their own...

[Void]

As promised, a screenshot of someone using outcast tags IC.



This right here is the problem. People use these tags to come up with all kinds of justifications as to why evil characters aren't evil, and it's really frustrating to navigate around when absolutely everyone is apathetic.

If that's an IC response and not an OOC chatter then you'd pretty much need to explain why a character is not allowed to think this way.

A reasonable possible explanation (given lack of context) is that "Mila" is lawful evil.

Context is Mila Brown is the NPC that deals with a lot of administrative interactions in the Arcane Tower and is notable for booting outcasts out. This was in reference to a character that had many Andunorian ties and socialized below regularly. The screenshot is someone saying that because this person does not have outcast tags, he can go wherever he wants, and there's nothing the paladin questioning him over it can do about it.

That's not an apathy, though. This is character's belief and highly lawful character, apparently. She picked a code and stuck with it. If you want to make her fall for it, though, you'd need a DM team assitance. Additionally this seems to be a second-hand information said by other character, and said character is expressing their opinion. Said opinion can be incorrect, said character can be trying to badmouth Mila, or it can be lying to you. Something to keep in mind.

Also, one very important thing you should consider:

Where people don't care if people are highly affiliated with villainous groups as long as they're friendly.

A character that acts this way is highly likely to be evil aligned. Because Evil is selfish and has no obligation to fight good. Or do anything, really. "Why make enemies with someone who has powerful connection? Who cares what they're doing as long as it does not involve me?" This kind of thing. This is a normal reaction for neutral evil character who has a brain.

Mayeb you should ask them - IC - why do they act this way. If you're friendly enough, they might even tell the truth.

[Ork]

I respect your opinion a lot strong yeet, and I believe you've played significantly more than me recently in these environments that you'd have compelling reason for your opinion.

I guess I just wish it didn't have to be this way - this system isn't empowering, at least through my experiences. I might have to accept that Arelith has changed. While you've commented your trust in the playerbase has eroded, I can appreciate and empathize with those remarks. The playerbase can't be trusted. This is a playerbase that used altars to find out player's religion, or force characters to walk beneath the arch to learn their alignment, or force new outcasts to immediately be collared on creation, or.. I could really go on.

Since Andunor began, there was no overarching story-line or admin-led reasoning on why humans could start in the city. To this day, Outcasts have no unifying purpose beyond "they start in andunor" and as the years go on we're told outcasts can be quasimodos or murderers or tragic victims. There's such a wide breadth of reasons that the tag is insufficient in providing players with the resources to make judgements and I'd prefer players to earn that level of information rather than be given it.

[-XXX-]

I'd like to point out that the alignment chart is not an IG information and the moment someone starts labelling characters IC, they might stop for a moment to consider what they are doing.

Some characters with high lore skill (and possibly high WIS score) might be able to acknowledge good, evil, order and chaos as cosmic forces that tempt the souls of men, but that's probably as far as they should go as far as pinpointing the specific alignment of individuals goes.


Working from there, I don't think that acting sensibly around characters with questionable background is such a bad idea - it's perfectly reasonable simply not to socialize with characters that your own character might have reservations about, rather than confront them immediately or outright engage in open hostilities.

Rather than that what I often see is overreaction and engineered outrage. I personally find it really amusing seeing how slander, historical revisionism and ignorant labeling tend to be the tools of self-professed "goodly folk" - which is all fine and fun for as long as you're not insisting on doubling down and demanding that IC forged narratives are being legitimized and enforced by DM possessed NPCs

The tags give us a tool that helps navigating all this more sensibly. The players of said characters chose to have their character being shunned by society and it is up to them to come up with a reason why that is so - also, I don't believe that even this should mean that the existance of a tag on a character should represent an instant arrest or PvP should they find themselves in the wrong place.
If you have the tendency to chase away and/or PvP such characters each time they show up, then complain why they don't stick to their own designated spaces, then I'd suggest that it's time for some introspection.

[Exordius]

I never take tags into consideration when im doing rp... i choose how i interact with someone not a tag placed by rp nazis trying to force a certain style of rp on everyone. Also why should my character care if pirates, monsters, or outcasts are hanging around as long as they not harming anyone? He is neutral, he cares nothing for good or evil or societal norms. Not his job to punish evil that's what the paladins are for. If that makes him apathetic then so be it.