Alternative Methods for Access to Award Races

[chris a gogo]

Im happy with the current system I was really happy when I managed to get an Imp which I have now rolled.

In fact after getting the imp ive rolled almost all my old characters not gotten anything close to a major reward but im very happy with the current system.

[DM Rex]

I'd be in favor of applications, simply because chances of getting to ever play an award race for me with current system is zero.

I have to point out that this statement is factually incorrect. The epic sacrifice formula is never zero, but the chance is low. If people do not wish to end/retire their character that is understandable. But the intent, as has been stated above, is to offer an incentive for people to move through characters and receive an award for it.

When we talk about things like RPR and applications this then strays into the biases issue, which the current present system avoids.
Granted they are interesting alternatives!

[DangerDolphin]

I'd rather see it based on time played.

Definitely not. From all the possible mechanics, "time wasted on the server" is the worst one and even worse than current one. It encourages idling if anything.

There is already a system in place that detects if you are idle and stops rewarding adventuring XP. So this problem is already solved.

It's also the most similar to our current system, except you can spend your time RPing instead of grinding.

[Sockss]

That is not true. Races come with their baggage and it matters.

However, it is not the end of the world, and it is possible to pick something else instead.

I'm not so sure. Give yourself a banite face tattoo and you can emulate a Tiefling. Do you have an example of something that couldn't be mimicked?

Sure.

You arrive in Cordor, get off the ship and cheerfully greet nearest passerby....
as an ogre.

Being a banite does not have nearly the same impact as being a member of other race. Races come with baggage (cultural/historical) which is visible at a glance, and you absolutely cannot replicate it by other means, no matter what you do.

Ogres don't get off the boat in Cordor, though. In fact I'm pretty sure they'd be killed by the kill script. Neither is really relevant to creating a narrative.

The story is created by your input and, even more so (at least in a good story imo), the actions of PC's around you. You can create the same perception. No one cares about an ogre because of their history, but because they're a monster. Just like if an infernalist covered in blood and scars, would be treated. You can cultivate that reaction.

But yes, it is more difficult than having a skin.

[Kuma]

How about the Administration hold a bi-monthly lottery and use a RNG to come up with the winner(s)

because the intent of the system is to encourage character turnover

The story is created by your input and, even more so (at least in a good story imo), the actions of PC's around you. You can create the same perception. No one cares about an ogre because of their history, but because they're a monster.

maybe unpopular opinion: being an ogre is not a story or a character
being a drow is not a story or a character
being a human is not a story or a character

I'd rather see it based on time played. Maybe something like-- if you've been a regular player (based on CD key) for a year and have 20 RPR you can request one minor race from the DMs. Two years, a normal race, three years a greater... The clock starts over every time you cash in and you still have to delete an epic character to make the request but there's no incentive to burn through disposable characters that only exist to be deleted.

Basically everyone gets access to special races if they play long enough and maintain solid RPR but supplies are still limited.

what is "regular"? what would cause a pause in this measurement? what if i have RL obligations? would it measure purely time played incorporating RPR as a multiplier, or would it measure character logins only? is this essentially quarterhogging for hobgoblins?

[xanrael]

If the reward system is significantly encouraging that, I'd

You can't get rewards without 20 rpr. If you'll be blitzing and ignoring everyone, you won't have 20 rpr.

I'm aware, I also know some 20 RPR players that have acted this way in the past as the character will have something that at the time was gated behind 20 RPR. Now I have no clue if they maintained that RPR rating and I often play at a low DM population time so it may be different for Arelith prime time.

[NauVaseline]

because the intent of the system is to encourage character turnover

I doubt it's purpose would be negatively impacted

[Kuma]

because the intent of the system is to encourage character turnover

I doubt it's purpose would be negatively impacted

you don't think that much less people would retire their characters when given an incentive to do so? you only have to compare and contrast 'wandering epic syndrome' from days of yore with how it's been under the award system. it's absolutely had a colossal impact.

[NauVaseline]

you don't think that much less people would retire their characters when given an incentive to do so? you only have to compare and contrast 'wandering epic syndrome' from days of yore with how it's been under the award system. it's absolutely had a colossal impact.

I do not think people would 'bank' on winning the lottery, no. I certainly wouldn't

[Kuma]

you don't think that much less people would retire their characters when given an incentive to do so? you only have to compare and contrast 'wandering epic syndrome' from days of yore with how it's been under the award system. it's absolutely had a colossal impact.

I do not think people would 'bank' on winning the lottery, no. I certainly wouldn't

this current system isn't what lottery means but ok

also demonstrably untrue, it literally did happen precisely as i'm describing and is still working very well.

[Void]

Ogres don't get off the boat in Cordor, though. In fact I'm pretty sure they'd be killed by the kill script. Neither is really relevant to creating a narrative.

Replace this with a random meeting in the woods, you get roughly the same effect.

Basically, you cannot replace impact of having a specific race with a RP behavior.

You can create the same perception.

No. You absolutely can't. No matter how much a human would want to be an ogre, an imp or an elf, they will remain a human.

maybe unpopular opinion: being an ogre is not a story or a character
being a drow is not a story or a character
being a human is not a story or a character

It is a huge part of a story of a character and one of the core defining characteristics of a character.
If you think races do not matter, perform a mental experiment.
Take your character and replace him with an awakened cockroach.
See if it makes a difference.

[Kuma]

i didnt say it wasn't a large part of a character, i said it's not enough to be a compelling character all its own and claiming otherwise is lazy writing

[Wuthering]

Fair enough argument Kuma. However I don't know that "wandering epic" syndrome is the problem now that it used to be back when it actually took a *lot* of time and effort to epic levels and bored epics ruining the days of low levels was a real problem.

With writs plus the amount of players who know the server inside and out now, anyone can have another level 30 in a matter of months (or for some crazies, even weeks) and some Level 30 created in 2007 doesn't really have all that much advantage aside from potentially overtuned gear that's no longer available to anyone else. I think the ease of getting your next character to epics again actually does a lot more than epic sacrifice to encourage people to delete.

If anything I think the disposable nature of characters here can be a drawback; I wish characters would stick around more often than I wish characters would go away. How many stories get dropped halfway through because the player hit 26 and is ready to immediately delete and start the next one? Or how many times do you look at the portal and barely recognize a single name? Turnover is good but like anything it can be too much.

Anyway that idea was just a brainstorm but I'd personally like to see something rewarding players who've spent a lot of time on the server on whichever characters they wished to play, agnostic of level, instead of rewarding those who churn through characters who have no purpose but to be rolled. Even if that just meant time spent in game and active (measured by RPR ticks) gave a boost to your % when rolling.

[Void]

i didnt say it wasn't a large part of a character, i said it's not enough to be a compelling character all its own and claiming otherwise is lazy writing

This is kinda rude, isn't it?
Because there is a place for characters who are described entirley by their race too.

Fair enough argument Kuma. However I don't know that "wandering epic" syndrome is the problem now that it used to be back

It is a common issue on persistent worlds, though. People sticking around for years after having hit lvl 30, and their characters going stale and becoming disconnected from everything. Encouraging turnover is a good thing that keeps the world ticking.

[NauVaseline]

this current system isn't what lottery means but ok

also demonstrably untrue, it literally did happen precisely as i'm describing and is still working very well.

I'm suggesting that in addition to the current system they run a bi monthly lottery. I doubt people will stop rolling characters on the off chance that they might win a lottery

[CptJonas]

i didnt say it wasn't a large part of a character, i said it's not enough to be a compelling character all its own and claiming otherwise is lazy writing

Say that to R.A.Salvatore.....like 80% of drizzt story is around his race

[Drowboy]

i didnt say it wasn't a large part of a character, i said it's not enough to be a compelling character all its own and claiming otherwise is lazy writing

Say that to R.A.Salvatore.....like 80% of drizzt story is around his race

case in point tbh

[Kuma]

i didnt say it wasn't a large part of a character, i said it's not enough to be a compelling character all its own and claiming otherwise is lazy writing

This is kinda rude, isn't it?
Because there is a place for characters who are described entirley by their race too.

NPCs.

please don't take me the wrong way, you're misunderstanding what i'm saying. a race alone is not a character concept by itself. i did not say it isn't frequently a major factor of a character.

there's something to be said for "setting support" PCs who act more or less according to their race's archetypes, but many of the award races have archetypes with a shallowness that i boggle at the desire to play without developing them into something much more (ogres, minotaurs, etc) without betraying what it is to be one.

edit: this also applies to non-award races, like "a goblin" or "a dwarf". without anything else that character is a stat bloc and a paragraph from FR wiki without a soul.

edit 2: this is also a massive derail from the thread and i apologise if i'm coming across as blunt and a nuisance. i can't think of a better solution, and i know all i'm doing is providing answers to why i think peoples' ideas won't work, but i honestly would love to be proven wrong. i just haven't managed to come up with a system that is fair and workable.

[fading]

A dwarf character and an elf character will undoubtedly be different, race influences characters, we've all agreed on this in the past. There are characters concepts that demand a certain race. I feel like there's a lot of arguing for the sake of it.. And really, it's not really the point of this.

I hadn't realized there'd be so much support for the epic sacrifice system. If the community wishes to keep it, by all means. I've been playing on Arelith for 1500+ hours, and personally, I hate grinding. I love RPing, and sometimes, you're mentally stuck on concepts that can't be done with the base races, and can't find enjoyment out of other concepts until you get them out of your system. (Yes, there are some concepts that heavily relate to the race in some manner and can only be done with said race)

I just don't find the concept of having to grind for months with a humility druid all that fun, and at the moment, that's the only way to have access to the awards, especially if you need a major. I only have so much time, and I'd rather spend it RPing than grinding. Sure, I'll just have to get over it and play something else, but I don't think it should be that way.

Keeping the current system, and offering /some/ alternative would keep characters flowing while also allowing players who wish to play X to have a manner of doing so that doesn't involve month/s of grinding and then a chance at playing what they wanted to.

[Void]

This is kinda rude, isn't it?
Because there is a place for characters who are described entirley by their race too.

NPCs.

please don't take me the wrong way, you're misunderstanding what i'm saying. a race alone is not a character concept by itself. i did not say it isn't frequently a major factor of a character.

there's something to be said for "setting support" PCs who act more or less according to their race's archetypes, but many of the award races have archetypes with a shallowness that i boggle at the desire to play without developing them into something much more (ogres, minotaurs, etc) without betraying what it is to be one.

(o_O)

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Or what you're even arguing about. A lot of it sounds like looking down at different types of play, not sure if that's what you had in mind.

There are (at least) two distinct types of play. One where you plan biography, major events and so on, and based on that make a character.
And the other one is where you grab the naked stat block and throw it into the world. Well, MAYBE you pick two or three adjectives for the character and use them to define it. Once the character is in the world, you let the world mold it into a more specific shape, filling the blanks as you go.

In my experience, complicated biography tends to never surface, and statblock character or a character that was defined with a few phrases can blossom into a much more colorful personality. Of course to each their own.

So, "Ogre" is a character. What kind of Ogre is that character, though? Nobody knows, you have to talk to them.

[Kuma]

There are (at least) two distinct types of play. One where you plan biography, major events and so on, and based on that make a character.
And the other one is where you grab the naked stat block and throw it into the world. Well, MAYBE you pick two or three adjectives for the character and use them to define it. Once the character is in the world, you let the world mold it into a more specific shape, filling the blanks as you go.

im apparently unable to articulate what i mean here but at least we can agree on this point that yeah that's totally a valid method of character creation, but point out that you'd lose this with an application system

i'm out of this thread until someone suggests other methods

[Void]

I hadn't realized there'd be so much support for the epic sacrifice system. If the community wishes to keep it, by all means. I've been playing on Arelith for 1500+ hours, and personally, I hate grinding.

The system has a purpose and that's to kill off stale PCs. Of course, having alternative way of acquiring locked races would be great. As I also have things I'd love to play and with current system as it is my chances of playing them are zero. Not because of 5% roll, but because I'm unlikely to bring many characters to 26 where they can even try.

[fading]

I hadn't realized there'd be so much support for the epic sacrifice system. If the community wishes to keep it, by all means. I've been playing on Arelith for 1500+ hours, and personally, I hate grinding.

The system has a purpose and that's to kill off stale PCs. Of course, having alternative way of acquiring locked races would be great. As I also have things I'd love to play and with current system as it is my chances of playing them are zero. Not because of 5% roll, but because I'm unlikely to bring many characters to 26 where they can even try.

Well, there you go, that's what this whole thing is about. There are different ways to enjoy Arelith, some are conductive to awards, some aren't. If sticking to a single character and heavily RPing is a valid way of experiencing Arelith, why isn't it being rewarded?

It doesn't have to be applications, if there are so many things wrong with them, bias and the like, but I do think an alternative would be an overall good. I can't say what methods you'd use, that's why I made this in feedback and not suggestions ^^

[Ork]

You're articulating your point just fine, Kuma. Race does not a character make, and these reward races tend to attract individuals that want to feel unique and different - not for the stories they might provide but for the rarity of the race. We only have to look back to our brief dragon PC stint to really see that.

Epic sacrifice system is fine, though I'd like to see (shameless plug) dynamic hobgoblins removed from minor rewards.

[CptJonas]

You're articulating your point just fine, Kuma. Race does not a character make, and these reward races tend to attract individuals that want to feel unique and different - not for the stories they might provide but for the rarity of the race. We only have to look back to our brief dragon PC stint to really see that.

Epic sacrifice system is fine, though I'd like to see (shameless plug) dynamic hobgoblins removed from minor rewards.

Well...as was stated before...sometimes it does...dont state as fact it doesnt....
And dont automaticly put all people who want to play reward race into "special snowflake" box...

If Dragon PC showed us anything...it was that in current system....(especialy old one where you could get rewards on any RPR)....that people who get chance to play are often not up par with RP of that race...or you can even say that reason why there was so many "individuals that want to feel unique and different" and not "for the stories they might provide" is bcs our current system where those kind of players have best chance to get 5% roll...(not everyone who get this are in that category..sure...but even good RP players could fall into that box thx to feeling that if you got that reward after grind you hate you should feel kinda special...)


And for me personaly...my best RP enjoynment after like 4 years on arelith was with my Immaskari, specifickly bcs it gave me totaly new aproach and chance to RP something totaly different that would normaly be posible with other normal races...