Anti magic fields

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I am not sure how much of a balance issues anti magic field items will cause, but the spell in it's original PnP is a two edged sword as it suppresses ALL magic, including spells/potions already cast or items being worn (so no plus stats, skills, saves from items, etc.) Even stops supernatural abilities

I imagine the lack of universally supressing alll magic without suppression (have fun coding that) is why it was never a vanilla spell and why it will not be added to spells books and restricted to creatures/rare items. I just wonder if these items will make their lucky owners far too powerful.

Will it suppress on going effects that were casted before the anti magic field and if not, can a mage do acid sheathe and then anti magic field to prevent breaching?

[CookieMonster]

Honestly, I fail to see the OP aspect of it.

The spell Silence cast upon yourself does the same thing minus the effect to summons.

[Drowboy]

Its not castable anyway, it's only an npcs and items that we don't know how to attain yet. Irongron seemed to imply in the discord last night that they're not chest loot and not consistently attainable, so it's very possible most people never, ever see it, beyond fighting weave eaters for the level ranges those even show up.

[Sockss]

Honestly, I fail to see the OP aspect of it.

The spell Silence cast upon yourself does the same thing minus the effect to summons.

Depends on how it actually works and the specifics, but (potentially) the following make it significantly better.

Universal access that lasts longer than 2 rounds (scroll-silence).
No silent-spell use.
No epic / scroll / item use.
Removal of summon threat.

Essentially you shut down a caster completely with no counterplay possible. Counterplay exists for silence.

[Drowboy]

It's a 10 foot radius that may or may not move (erring on the side of may) so the counterplay is not to stand in. You aren't immune to magic while you're inside it. Ten foot seems kinda small, too. I remember the ten foot range on "mass" blindness/deafness basically being the size of one ettin.

[JubJub]

My only concern is will these end up like artifacts where if you can solo or have pals that can go out everyday and fight the top content you will get this stuff and the people who can't will never have a chance. Or is it going to be a totally random when and where?

[Sockss]

I agree. Rarity balance is an outdated concept, because it never works.

My concern is that, with a single item, regardless of how rare it is, you can entirely shut down entire classes with no counter play. Which is terrible balance, frustrating for anyone on the receiving end and very reminiscent of the hellball rod / +20 darts / on hit wof ammo etc.

[CookieMonster]

Honestly, I fail to see the OP aspect of it.

The spell Silence cast upon yourself does the same thing minus the effect to summons.

Depends on how it actually works and the specifics, but (potentially) the following make it significantly better.

Universal access that lasts longer than 2 rounds (scroll-silence).
No silent-spell use.
No epic / scroll / item use.
Removal of summon threat.

Essentially you shut down a caster completely with no counterplay possible. Counterplay exists for silence.

If the radius moves with the user, the Mage will need to practice far casting. But, I still fail to see this being OP. You either need to use it next to, or get next to a Caster for the effect to work. Good luck with that, especially with all of the new spells.

The only issue I believe may come about this item is a bare minimum amount of RP, item use and attack before PvP. Perhaps a delay in using the item and the effect occurring to prevent Mages from getting lynched.

[Irongron]

It does move with the caster, and lasts only 10 rounds.

Definitely isn't overpowered, if a spellcaster is prepared to swallow one's pride and run away when they see it being cast.

At the moment it only exists in two places - on the Weave Eater Spawn, and a single use loot item.

[Sockss]

Honestly, I fail to see the OP aspect of it.

The spell Silence cast upon yourself does the same thing minus the effect to summons.

Depends on how it actually works and the specifics, but (potentially) the following make it significantly better.

Universal access that lasts longer than 2 rounds (scroll-silence).
No silent-spell use.
No epic / scroll / item use.
Removal of summon threat.

Essentially you shut down a caster completely with no counterplay possible. Counterplay exists for silence.

If the radius moves with the user, the Mage will need to practice far casting. But, I still fail to see this being OP. You either need to use it next to, or get next to a Caster for the effect to work. Good luck with that, especially with all of the new spells.

The only issue I believe may come about this item is a bare minimum amount of RP, item use and attack before PvP. Perhaps a delay in using the item and the effect occurring to prevent Mages from getting lynched.

Yeh I'm making assumptions how it works because it's not very clear, one of those is the AOE moves with the user. That might not be the case, in which case it's fine.

However if it does move with the caster, all you need to do is be in range of a mage. I don't really want to debate 'not being in range', because ultimately you're arguing ranged things never get close to something else, which is obviously silly.

The issue is simply, with an item, you can entirely negate the entirety of a huge subsection of builds with no counterplay. Which is not good design. PvE only is fine, but it's not a fun player mechanic.

The larger issue is balancing around rarity which seems to becoming a more common crux for adding these sort of things for players.

While I'd disagree with you on that Irongron. Even if that were the case, does adding an item that makes someone run away for 1 minute seem like a fun mechanic to anyone?

[CookieMonster]

If you believe this is the only mechanic in place that is resolved by running away, I fear you have taken a very biased view of the server.

A majority of AoE spells and effects are best solved by running away from the source of it. In fact, I dare say that much of a Casters disposable ammo consists of casting things on the floor, or conjuring things that chase you, whilst they cast things on the floor.

This is simply a tool, a single use tool that can be used for 10 rounds to disable a Caster (In range of it) which is not difficult to avoid. Cast Storm of V and laugh, because a Clarity potion can't be used now. Run away and Sanc and so on.. Then resume the destruction shortly afterwards.

[Sockss]

If you believe this is the only mechanic in place that is resolved by running away, I fear you have taken a very biased view of the server.

A majority of AoE spells and effects are best solved by running away from the source of it. In fact, I dare say that much of a Casters disposable ammo consists of casting things on the floor, or conjuring things that chase you, whilst they cast things on the floor.

This is simply a tool, a single use tool that can be used for 10 rounds to disable a Caster (In range of it) which is not difficult to avoid. Cast Storm of V and laugh, because a Clarity potion can't be used now. Run away and Sanc and so on.. Then resume the destruction shortly afterwards.

This is simply very incorrect. If you're in a gas combo the best thing to do would be to GoW it away.

In your scenario of casting, is the caster somehow casting while moving? If they're not moving, how are they avoiding being in range? The scenario doesn't seem well thought out.

As an example of inconsistency here, why was Barbarian biteback changed if you can just counter it by running away for its duration? I would assume because it was a very unfun mechanic.

[Biolab00]

If you believe this is the only mechanic in place that is resolved by running away, I fear you have taken a very biased view of the server.

A majority of AoE spells and effects are best solved by running away from the source of it. In fact, I dare say that much of a Casters disposable ammo consists of casting things on the floor, or conjuring things that chase you, whilst they cast things on the floor.

This is simply a tool, a single use tool that can be used for 10 rounds to disable a Caster (In range of it) which is not difficult to avoid. Cast Storm of V and laugh, because a Clarity potion can't be used now. Run away and Sanc and so on.. Then resume the destruction shortly afterwards.

This is simply very incorrect. If you're in a gas combo the best thing to do would be to GoW it away.

In your scenario of casting, is the caster somehow casting while moving? If they're not moving, how are they avoiding being in range? The scenario doesn't seem well thought out.

As an example of inconsistency here, why was Barbarian biteback changed if you can just counter it by running away for its duration? I would assume because it was a very unfun mechanic.

I actually think that you make a very wrong assumption here.
Barbarian biteback is a "rage" ability and can be used consistently and super consistent, i must say. And that it's definitely not just 10 rounds. With the right build, it can even last up to 30 Rounds if you're lucky.

This Anti-Magic One-Use consumable is probably super rare, I'm not sure how rare because i do not know how to find one, and it's fixed at 10 rounds. ( And usually, such item can be sold as "Good Gold" )
I believed that no one will use such an expensive item for a single PVP unless he hates you so much. It's likely more to be used in tactical engagement.

This truly makes group fighting much more versatile and a clear game-changer in group fight, if opposing team has almost all casters. I actually look forward to such battle and see how it turns out.

[Baron Saturday]

Is the -fetch command disabled for summons stuck in the field? If not, it likely should be, as I could see it being abused.

[Sockss]

If you believe this is the only mechanic in place that is resolved by running away, I fear you have taken a very biased view of the server.

A majority of AoE spells and effects are best solved by running away from the source of it. In fact, I dare say that much of a Casters disposable ammo consists of casting things on the floor, or conjuring things that chase you, whilst they cast things on the floor.

This is simply a tool, a single use tool that can be used for 10 rounds to disable a Caster (In range of it) which is not difficult to avoid. Cast Storm of V and laugh, because a Clarity potion can't be used now. Run away and Sanc and so on.. Then resume the destruction shortly afterwards.

This is simply very incorrect. If you're in a gas combo the best thing to do would be to GoW it away.

In your scenario of casting, is the caster somehow casting while moving? If they're not moving, how are they avoiding being in range? The scenario doesn't seem well thought out.

As an example of inconsistency here, why was Barbarian biteback changed if you can just counter it by running away for its duration? I would assume because it was a very unfun mechanic.

I actually think that you make a very wrong assumption here.
Barbarian biteback is a "rage" ability and can be used consistently and super consistent, i must say. And that it's definitely not just 10 rounds. With the right build, it can even last up to 30 Rounds if you're lucky.

This Anti-Magic One-Use consumable is probably super rare, I'm not sure how rare because i do not know how to find one, and it's fixed at 10 rounds. ( And usually, such item can be sold as "Good Gold" )
I believed that no one will use such an expensive item for a single PVP unless he hates you so much. It's likely more to be used in tactical engagement.

This truly makes group fighting much more versatile and a clear game-changer in group fight, if opposing team has almost all casters. I actually look forward to such battle and see how it turns out.

Well, we are considering several things here.

Irongron's stance that it's not OP because you can just run away.

Is nothing considered powerful because you can just run away? Obviously not.
Are you overlooking any sort of gap-closing, terrain issues, group fights, stealth, MS applications, native speed in order to draw the assumption that you can even run away? Yes.
It's just bad mechanics and bad understanding of PvP.

The actual enjoyment of the mechanic.
I'd say very little. There's no counterplay and no actions you can reasonably take aside from 'running away for 1 minute'.
Why would you want to promote any sort of gameplay which is just running away?

Balancing item power based on rarity.
This doesn't work.

I raised barbarian biteback, because it's an example of something with little counterplay that was very unfun.

Is the duration of the 'running away' relevant? (and why?) I would say no. The relevance is the type of gameplay it creates.
Is promoting any mechanic which shuts down a huge portion of classes, leaving the only reasonable action to run away, good? I wouldn't say so.
Is that conducive to an enjoyable or interesting PvP experience? I, again, would say no.

[Drowboy]

Balancing item power based on rarity.
This doesn't work.

All other concerns aside this is the big one for me. If it can be attained with anything even approaching regularity, it will be attained en masse. See: artefacts, the ultimate expression of why this doesn't work.

[Nitro]

This is hilariously op. There's no other mechanic that has no counterplay like this one does. No saving throw, no spell resistance, no spell you can cast to stop it, you can't even interrupt it since it's cast from an item. Literally the only thing you can do is run away, and if the enemy has any brain cells at all they'll be hasted before activating it, so at very best you have to spend a full minute running from a melee hoping to trigger as few AOO's as possible, at worst you get curbstomped because you literally can't do anything.


Imagine if a rod existed that when used on a character made them unable to attack with weapons for a full minute with no saving throw or spell resistance check, that's the equivalent.

[Biolab00]

This is simply very incorrect. If you're in a gas combo the best thing to do would be to GoW it away.

In your scenario of casting, is the caster somehow casting while moving? If they're not moving, how are they avoiding being in range? The scenario doesn't seem well thought out.

As an example of inconsistency here, why was Barbarian biteback changed if you can just counter it by running away for its duration? I would assume because it was a very unfun mechanic.

I actually think that you make a very wrong assumption here.
Barbarian biteback is a "rage" ability and can be used consistently and super consistent, i must say. And that it's definitely not just 10 rounds. With the right build, it can even last up to 30 Rounds if you're lucky.

This Anti-Magic One-Use consumable is probably super rare, I'm not sure how rare because i do not know how to find one, and it's fixed at 10 rounds. ( And usually, such item can be sold as "Good Gold" )
I believed that no one will use such an expensive item for a single PVP unless he hates you so much. It's likely more to be used in tactical engagement.

This truly makes group fighting much more versatile and a clear game-changer in group fight, if opposing team has almost all casters. I actually look forward to such battle and see how it turns out.

Well, we are considering several things here.

Irongron's stance that it's not OP because you can just run away.

Is nothing considered powerful because you can just run away? Obviously not.
Are you overlooking any sort of gap-closing, terrain issues, group fights, stealth, MS applications, native speed in order to draw the assumption that you can even run away? Yes.
It's just bad mechanics and bad understanding of PvP.

The actual enjoyment of the mechanic.
I'd say very little. There's no counterplay and no actions you can reasonably take aside from 'running away for 1 minute'.
Why would you want to promote any sort of gameplay which is just running away?

Balancing item power based on rarity.
This doesn't work.

I raised barbarian biteback, because it's an example of something with little counterplay that was very unfun.

Is the duration of the 'running away' relevant? (and why?) I would say no. The relevance is the type of gameplay it creates.
Is promoting any mechanic which shuts down a huge portion of classes, leaving the only reasonable action to run away, good? I wouldn't say so.
Is that conducive to an enjoyable or interesting PvP experience? I, again, would say no.

I think that you're over-reacting already. Arelith has always been a very magic-oriented server.
There are plenty of things that can make you want to run away, not simply from this item alone.
And to use Barbarian rage as a comparison is a very bad idea because it's comparing a "30 Rounds with plenty of unlimited usage" with "10 Rounds of single super rare & likely expensive item".

Ok, now the issue is that this Anti-Magic thing severely if not outright cripple any magic caster. I think that most of the people, including you, is against it.

I'm thinking that this argument isn't really about what's balance and not balance but the underlining issue that you have, probably, is that this is the "direct and very direct" counter.

Like i said, i standby my view that it makes battle more versatile. And I am quite sick of mages/druids and the summons in a group battle.

Of course, the issue is about the rarity of it. If in the sense that people keep stock of this "Anti-Magic Item" in bulk and only use it during faction fight or something similar, it will turn my anticipation to disappointment. I will be honest that i am using a fighter build.I also don't want to see such a situation.

What i suggest is that to make someway-somehow make this item belong to a super ultra rare unique that can only exist in Arelith as a factor of 3. As in, there can only be 3 of them in the whole Arelith. It's supposed to belong to ultra-super godly stuff, after all.

Edit : or to make it has an innate cooldown of 1HR IRL. Though, if this item proves not being rare enough, you will find it a "norm" item that will have it's use in every major fight

[Drowboy]

I am quite sick of mages/druids and the summons in a group battle.

1. be wizard/druid/spellsword/cleric
2. gsanc/invis/whatever, short term buffs
3. antimagic aura
4. blow someone up with spellsword strikes, your summons, or monolith shape, since you have a 10 foot Zone Of I Came Better Prepared

bonus points that if this is in any way farmable casters will, like artefacts, have the best solo chance.

And if it's not farmable, none of this matters, because it'll get seen a couple times a year.

[Biolab00]

I am quite sick of mages/druids and the summons in a group battle.

1. be wizard/druid/spellsword/cleric
2. gsanc/invis/whatever, short term buffs
3. antimagic aura
4. blow someone up with spellsword strikes, your summons, or monolith shape, since you have a 10 foot Zone Of I Came Better Prepared

bonus points that if this is in any way farmable casters will, like artefacts, have the best solo chance.

And if it's not farmable, none of this matters, because it'll get seen a couple times a year.

I'm sure that PVP in Arelith isn't engaged in this way.
Both party usually know when the fight is going-on or it's against "nice play".
And the 1st thing that i usually do, and in fact, everyone usually do, is to haste ourselves / see invisibility / truesight ( before battle even begins )

The next part about it is the rarity of it. I've to point out that when something becomes Ultra-Super Rare, it's unlikely to be used on a whim. If it's priced at 200K gold item sort of rarity, it's so ouch to even use it.
This is the crux of the issue.
Like i mention in my earlier post, it remains to be seen what actions and directions that Irongron will take for this particular item.

[Sockss]

I think that you're over-reacting already. Arelith has always been a very magic-oriented server.
There are plenty of things that can make you want to run away, not simply from this item alone.
And to use Barbarian rage as a comparison is a very bad idea because it's comparing a "30 Rounds with plenty of unlimited usage" with "10 Rounds of single super rare & likely expensive item".

Ok, now the issue is that this Anti-Magic thing severely if not outright cripple any magic caster. I think that most of the people, including you, is against it.

I'm thinking that this argument isn't really about what's balance and not balance but the underlining issue that you have, probably, is that this is the "direct and very direct" counter.

Like i said, i standby my view that it makes battle more versatile. And I am quite sick of mages/druids and the summons in a group battle.

Of course, the issue is about the rarity of it. If in the sense that people keep stock of this "Anti-Magic Item" in bulk and only use it during faction fight or something similar, it will turn my anticipation to disappointment. I will be honest that i am using a fighter build.I also don't want to see such a situation.

What i suggest is that to make someway-somehow make this item belong to a super ultra rare unique that can only exist in Arelith as a factor of 3. As in, there can only be 3 of them in the whole Arelith. It's supposed to belong to ultra-super godly stuff, after all.

Edit : or to make it has an innate cooldown of 1HR IRL. Though, if this item proves not being rare enough, you will find it a "norm" item that will have it's use in every major fight

There aren't things that create an instant win scenario. Things tend to have counters. What else exists that can only be dealt with by running away from? (The only thing is true strike, which is very difficult to land and is a HUGE risk/reward)

It is about balance, but more importantly is about the type of gameplay that this promotes. Namely very uninteresting gameplay. Will we see 10 round 100% immunity items in the near future? How many items or changes will we see that are considered okay because you can run just away from them? How many minutes will a fight consist of consumable use and running around before there's any appropriate risk/reward and decision making taking place?

I'm not sure what to make of the summons comment. In a group battle summons become increasingly less relevant. (A large number of summons can be countered using a fixed number of actions.)

[CookieMonster]

I'm sure that PVP in Arelith isn't engaged in this way.
Both party usually know when the fight is going-on or it's against "nice play".
And the 1st thing that i usually do, and in fact, everyone usually do, is to haste ourselves / see invisibility / truesight ( before battle even begins )

If you and I were in a very tense and dire argument and you cast Haste. I would be attacking you instantly. The moment you ward yourself in the midst of some manner of conflict RP, it is deemed a hostile action.

[Biolab00]

I'm sure that PVP in Arelith isn't engaged in this way.
Both party usually know when the fight is going-on or it's against "nice play".
And the 1st thing that i usually do, and in fact, everyone usually do, is to haste ourselves / see invisibility / truesight ( before battle even begins )

If you and I were in a very tense and dire argument and you cast Haste. I would be attacking you instantly. The moment you ward yourself in the midst of some manner of conflict RP, it is deemed a hostile action.

Yep you got it right. Hence, the situation that he describe is unlikely to occur. When a person GS or Haste, you will know there's shit going on. It's a warning to be on guard.

[CookieMonster]

I'm sure that PVP in Arelith isn't engaged in this way.
Both party usually know when the fight is going-on or it's against "nice play".
And the 1st thing that i usually do, and in fact, everyone usually do, is to haste ourselves / see invisibility / truesight ( before battle even begins )

If you and I were in a very tense and dire argument and you cast Haste. I would be attacking you instantly. The moment you ward yourself in the midst of some manner of conflict RP, it is deemed a hostile action.

Yep you got it right. Hence, the situation that he describe is unlikely to occur. When a person GS or Haste, you will know there's shit going on. It's a warning to be on guard.

Exactly. This Item is not going to be used unless they are hasted, otherwise you can't actually ensure you will stay in range and considering it would take someone 1 round to use a Wand of Haste and a further full round to use the item and then a further full round delay before they could attack.. You have plenty of time to Hide / G Sanc / Hellball.. etc

[Sockss]

So. Why wouldn't you use it while not hasted? If you're in range of a caster and they're not hasted, why wouldn't you?

Are we ignoring instant haste and move speed increases? Hell, what if they're on a horse?

Anyway, regardless of the omissions. The logic here seems to be that a melee can't ever reach a caster. Which is not the case.

You're also discounting the threat of using the item. You don't have to use it to change the way a caster fundamentally behaves.