Pet Peev- Being Prepared

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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue May 19, 2020 1:08 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:42 pm


Straight up what precisely are you bringing to the table to a party, as a caster, if not a few utility buffs?
Well, pre epic blindness spam is better then any buff. A well timed confusion is as good as a bunch of buffs, and way cooler. Hold monster on scary spawns is better then any buff. Dispelling a boss is often as good if not better then buffs. The thing is, I don't use these tricks that often in a party because the fighters want to prove how awesome they are too. Depending on my character, I am likely willing to amp them up and let them go as a caster, but I have played evil guys that make people beg for buffs or pray to a god they probably don't want to if I am a cleric. Like I said in my first post, this stuff is more ic then ooc. Even if a wizard does nothing and trails along the back of the party soaking up xp, that is something that can be dealt with ic.

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Kuma » Tue May 19, 2020 1:12 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:08 pm
Drowboy wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:42 pm


Straight up what precisely are you bringing to the table to a party, as a caster, if not a few utility buffs?
Well, pre epic blindness spam is better then any buff. A well timed confusion is as good as a bunch of buffs, and way cooler. Hold monster on scary spawns is better then any buff. Dispelling a boss is often as good if not better then buffs. The thing is, I don't use these tricks that often in a party because the fighters want to prove how awesome they are too. Depending on my character, I am likely willing to amp them up and let them go as a caster, but I have played evil guys that make people beg for buffs or pray to a god they probably don't want to if I am a cleric. Like I said in my first post, this stuff is more ic then ooc. Even if a wizard does nothing and trails along the back of the party soaking up xp, that is something that can be dealt with ic.
there's nothing stopping anyone from doing both, but a buffed party is far more reliable than the coin flip that is targeting arelith monster saves (spamming an infinite spell focus doesn't count as a "what are you doing instead")

but honestly unless y'all are bringing 10+ mass hastes, take your mummies or elemental elsewhere

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Drowboy » Tue May 19, 2020 1:21 pm

Using an infinispell doesn't preclude buffing, though, that's the point of them.
A well timed confusion is as good as a bunch of buffs, and way cooler.
Unless you're a warlock that's as good as a bunch of buffs for maybe 3 mobs.
Hold monster on scary spawns is better then any buff.
Unless you're a warlock etc etc, and after a certain point your DCs are not going to keep up with monster saves if you don't have infinite casts.
Dispelling a boss is often as good if not better then buffs.
Bulls/mage armor/II/Haste are different spell levels than most dispels and if your primary contribution is hanging out throwing dc 26 spells at mobs with saves in the 30s till you can throw out a handful of mords see 'not getting invited back' above.

Note: Being left to die by the barb/wm you refused to buff when your spell fails to take effect and you get swarmed/not getting invited back because you were dead weight (which wastes time/endangers everyone else) is a perfectly IC response.
but honestly unless y'all are bringing 10+ mass hastes, take your mummies or elemental elsewhere
my anaconda don't want none unless you got hastes hon
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Tue May 19, 2020 1:28 pm

a shrouded figure wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:17 pm
I too am a little confused by the buff thing. I’ve played full casters and full mundanes... if my healer is in a group with a pure level 30 barbarian- there’s no stronger spell I can memorize with 5-7 spell slots than a full accompany of wards for the barbarian. It basically is the difference between 5 Heals, not bad, and having an unstoppable juggernaught of doom as my “summon” for /hours/. How is this even debatable?
Because the barbarian is not your summon. He could decide to betray you any moment IC. He could have to leave at any time for OOC reasons. He could get yoinked by someone else IC mid dungeon and bail on you for IC reasons. And chances are the moment your pixie unlocks the chest, he will run up, grab whatever is in it, and claim it was empty. If the Barb's player is a cool guy and doesn't do any of this then great, you are better off mechanically. If he does though then you and your character are just screwed and can't do anything about it. That's why when people like me are choosing between making a healer cleric who supports the party with wards or some other wonky caster build that has limited spell slots but high AC and the ability to solo, we pick the latter. If there was some kind of notification whenever someone removed an item from a chest, so that we could at least properly call out loot goblins and do something about them IC, I would have no real argument left. If your character is made solely to buff other characters though then that makes them heavily reliant on those other characters and more likely to be let down than a character who can do it all on their own.
Drowboy wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:42 pm
Straight up what precisely are you bringing to the table to a party, as a caster, if not a few utility buffs? If the answer is summons, well, what you want to be doing is soloing. If the answer is 'purely offensive spells' and you aren't a trueflame, you're being wildly inefficient to the point of wasting everyone else's time, which I'd argue is far more entitled. (Summoning a pile of mummies to wreck everyone else's xp in a group is, also, a waste of everyone else's time.)

If your argument is 'being expected to help other players in a party is demeaning/entitled' what you want is a single player game. FF7R is apparently decent. If you insist on being dead weight, though, expect to not be -guarded, healed by other characters, raised on death, rescued from a rough spot, or brought back on the next trip, though. You've said the other-class equivalent of like. 'It's demeaning to be expected to use bard song, sneak attack/grenade enemies, click on rage,' etc. Wild. I gotta go thank my usual adventuring partners for knowing what they're doing.

Give me a list of spells that are more efficient and effective over a 2 hour dungeon run than a cast of mage armor, bulls/endurance, and extended II on the party tank bare minimum. I'll wait. Like, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face at that point. If you're in a party and you want it to go well/quickly/efficiently, the SINGLE best way to do that is to provide long-lasting 'real' (read: from a caster with good CL) buffs.

the effectiveness of summons should be drastically reduced until people learn how to play in parties again. they never should've become the be all leveling tool they are on 2/3rds of the classes here
The amount of assumptions, entitlement, and ignorance in this post is simply staggering. It honestly comes across as you just being mad that some casters would rather solo content and reap the rewards than follow you around acting as your personal buff dispenser.. You want people to play in parties again? Make it rewarding for them. I don't mind partying with people if the loot gets divided fairly. The issue is, especially with large random groups, that it doesn't. And so people stop joining large random groups. Having a notification when an item is removed from a chest, would go a long way in restoring faith, and give us a way to actually deal with the loot goblins IC other than just refusing to party with anyone but our most bestest friends.
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Drowboy » Tue May 19, 2020 1:45 pm

I'm actually saying you're better off soloing if you don't want to do [Common Mage In A Party] stuff. There's nothing entitled or ignorant about expecting people to contribute with their proper class roles in a group. It's a multiplayer game and classes have specific roles.
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Tue May 19, 2020 2:00 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:45 pm
I'm actually saying you're better off soloing if you don't want to do [Common Mage In A Party] stuff. There's nothing entitled or ignorant about expecting people to contribute with their proper class roles in a group. It's a multiplayer game and classes have specific roles.
I'm not sure it is fair to demand people play a certain class a certain way. A pure caster wizard and a spellsword are going to play differently. A healer cleric and a battle cleric are going to play differently. Just like a two-hand barbarian isn't going to have the same AC as a sword and board fighter or a monk. Demanding that ALL casters dedicate most of their spell slots to buffing melee characters is like me demanding that ALL melee characters should do -guard on all casters, even though a typical barbarian has lower AC than many wizards, druids, and clerics. There are many different ways to play different classes and having that variety is a good thing.
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Drowboy » Tue May 19, 2020 2:06 pm

If 2-3 stat buffs, mage armor, and II are most of your spellslots there's a different problem. I think it's very fair to be expected to bring something to the table as a worthwhile party member or, again, to not be invited back for being dead weight, and this applies to any class. If you decided to make some weird build that's only useful soloing, that's fine. Solo.
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Aradin » Tue May 19, 2020 2:12 pm

Even though on I generally ascribe to the notion of buffing party members (at least that's how I play my mage) I don't think it's the be-all end-all way to go. A mage who is very capable of buffing the party may want to instead use their spells to conjure up torrents of destructive power, or use disabling magics, or do whatever. Maybe it's less efficient overall, but this is an RP server after all, not a kill-grind server. So let people RP their mages how they want! If your character has a problem with it, then bring it up IC. If you don't enjoy the player's RP, then it's a big server; you don't have to RP with them.
The original point of the post was a gripe on players not being prepared/contributing to party adventures. If a character isn't contributing to the party's efforts, deal with it IC. If a mage is contributing but using their spells inefficiently/poorly, deal with it IC. There have been several great suggestions on how to do that.

The thing I find more concerning with NPC Logger Number Two's post is a mentality to immediately distrust your fellow players. It bums me out that you've had enough bad experiences to make that happen. Still, if your mindset going into any party engagement is to distrust the other players on an OOC level, then why are you playing on a multiplayer server/joining adventuring parties? It feels like you'd be happier grinding solo. Which you can of course do and avoid all this trouble.
As for the problem of loot goblins, you absolutely have means to deal with it IC. Call that character out. Spread the word that the character is a thief and is untrustworthy. Warn others about adventuring with them. Heck, maybe it even instigates PVP. There are lots of ways to deal with characters whose actions your character finds objectionable. I don't think we need a specific mechanic to help with that.

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Tue May 19, 2020 2:22 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:21 pm
Using an infinispell doesn't preclude buffing, though, that's the point of them.
A well timed confusion is as good as a bunch of buffs, and way cooler.
Unless you're a warlock that's as good as a bunch of buffs for maybe 3 mobs.
Hold monster on scary spawns is better then any buff.
Unless you're a warlock etc etc, and after a certain point your DCs are not going to keep up with monster saves if you don't have infinite casts.
Dispelling a boss is often as good if not better then buffs.
Bulls/mage armor/II/Haste are different spell levels than most dispels and if your primary contribution is hanging out throwing dc 26 spells at mobs with saves in the 30s till you can throw out a handful of mords see 'not getting invited back' above.

Note: Being left to die by the barb/wm you refused to buff when your spell fails to take effect and you get swarmed/not getting invited back because you were dead weight (which wastes time/endangers everyone else) is a perfectly IC response.
but honestly unless y'all are bringing 10+ mass hastes, take your mummies or elemental elsewhere
my anaconda don't want none unless you got hastes hon
I mean, we basically agree. Blindness removes the need for buffs is all I am saying. If your fighter can't kill something that's just standing there without any buffs applied on your person that's on you, not the wizard. As for the Barbarian/wm comment though, while I am certain they are great for shotgun pvp, they probably need the wizard more then the wizard needs them for epic content.

With that out of the way, I think you guys just like to argue. If you read my first post, its obvious my perspective leans toward "wizards should be buffing fighters even if they don't really have to". My second post I gave some alternative ideas. But the common theme through both is that this is an IC thing, and should be handled as such.


Also, a bit of a teaching moment. Even on non-shadowmages the dc for blindness is higher then 26, and it doesn't break invisi or invite aggro. It really is borderline broken in pve.

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Tue May 19, 2020 2:50 pm

Aradin wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 2:12 pm
1. The thing I find more concerning with NPC Logger Number Two's post is a mentality to immediately distrust your fellow players. It bums me out that you've had enough bad experiences to make that happen. Still, if your mindset going into any party engagement is to distrust the other players on an OOC level, then why are you playing on a multiplayer server/joining adventuring parties? It feels like you'd be happier grinding solo. Which you can of course do and avoid all this trouble.

2. As for the problem of loot goblins, you absolutely have means to deal with it IC. Call that character out. Spread the word that the character is a thief and is untrustworthy. Warn others about adventuring with them. Heck, maybe it even instigates PVP. There are lots of ways to deal with characters whose actions your character finds objectionable. I don't think we need a specific mechanic to help with that.
1. I do solo, because I got tired of carrying parties only to feel like I got robbed at the end. I still enjoy RP and interacting with other people. I've still made a few friends I can trust to run dungeons with. If my house gets robbed three times, and I install a security system and get a big guard dog, that does not mean I hate all people and never want any visitors, it just means I am protecting myself from being robbed again because I don't like being robbed. Too often though when I bring up why I solo or avoid groups of random people the response I get is, "Oh so you must hate RP then! Why don't you go play Skyrim you jerk!"

2. No, I don't have the means to deal with it IC. We get no notification that an item has been removed from the chest. Sure we might see them open it but if they say it is empty what am I supposed to do? Call them a liar? Half the time the chest is actually empty. Even if they did take what's inside they can just lie and say they didn't, and I still look like a paranoid jerk to the rest of the party. If someone's character is a jerk IC and would steal all the loot at the end of a hard dungeon, that is fine, but we should be able to see them do it IC with a notification like, "Swiper the Fox removed Item (Unidentified) from chest!" THEN we could actually deal with it IC.

Anyways, this was getting off-topic so I made a separate thread about the loot goblins in Feedback so it can be discussed there.
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue May 19, 2020 3:14 pm

Quick fix is to make buffing a companion carry with it some kind of narrative consequence (if you care that much).

Wizard casting on mage armour requires smudging your shield with a thumb of clay, etc. Druid requires you to ingest a peach so you may accept the 'seed of nature' before giving you Barkskin. I don't know, make it fun. Make it a point of interaction.

Also, I've played this game for a super long time and I'm always super uber poor across all my characters. I'm notorious for never having lenses - not because I don't know about them, but because I'm broke.
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Hazard » Tue May 19, 2020 3:22 pm

Sometimes I go places under/unprepared on purpose, because my character is uninformed and it's more fun to watch everyone panic.

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Xarge VI » Tue May 19, 2020 3:57 pm

The first thing I thought when I saw the title:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkU23m6yX04

Take that as advice or wisdom you you want. *nod nod*

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Ninjimmy » Tue May 19, 2020 4:17 pm

Ehhhhhh, having played a caster and a full melee, I can see both sides to that.

As the melee guy, I reeeeeeallly did need some wards to do a lot of stuff since there's no UMD it was basically a scroll tax which worked out weak and when adventuring with a caster, became 2-3 times more effective. Every melee needs a mage best friend.

Playing as a caster, I did end up having to re-prep a spellbook to have as many buff spells as possible whenever adventuring and after a while it became a little like being a cheap talking wand on some runs. Generally the guys I played with are great and engaging but it's a little hard to get interested when you're walking behind the magical equivalent of a wheat-thresher slaughtering vampires and demons occasionally tossing out a new mass haste.

It works for the particular Mage character who's a lazy slacker but I can see how, for certain characters, RP-wise it's a little uninspiring to be a mighty mage who's job is making everyone else amazing.

I don't think it should be expected for every mage to play the game as a support, though it's entirely reasonable to ask one you're friends with to help you kick bottom. It'd be the equivalent of "Every Fighter MUST guard the mage and stand next to them the entire run or they're doing it wrong".
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Halibutthead » Tue May 19, 2020 4:48 pm

i like how the word "entitled" is being thrown around to mean "someone who doesn't give me stuff", and then justified with an idea of efficiency.

also the thread has devolved into
Image

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue May 19, 2020 5:30 pm

Kuma wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:12 pm
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:08 pm
Drowboy wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:42 pm


Straight up what precisely are you bringing to the table to a party, as a caster, if not a few utility buffs?
Well, pre epic blindness spam is better then any buff. A well timed confusion is as good as a bunch of buffs, and way cooler. Hold monster on scary spawns is better then any buff. Dispelling a boss is often as good if not better then buffs. The thing is, I don't use these tricks that often in a party because the fighters want to prove how awesome they are too. Depending on my character, I am likely willing to amp them up and let them go as a caster, but I have played evil guys that make people beg for buffs or pray to a god they probably don't want to if I am a cleric. Like I said in my first post, this stuff is more ic then ooc. Even if a wizard does nothing and trails along the back of the party soaking up xp, that is something that can be dealt with ic.
there's nothing stopping anyone from doing both, but a buffed party is far more reliable than the coin flip that is targeting arelith monster saves (spamming an infinite spell focus doesn't count as a "what are you doing instead")

but honestly unless y'all are bringing 10+ mass hastes, take your mummies or elemental elsewhere
Same. Any caster I party with has one and only one job: buffing me and keeping me hasted.

If they can't either of these, I'm better off solo.

If you think someone is lootgoblining, address it IC. If you don't trust them IC, kick them from the party, tell them to get out, kill them, whatever.


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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Exordius » Tue May 19, 2020 6:17 pm

Such is why i almost always solo. The benefits are legion: Dont have to waste time walking, dont have to waste time talking, dont have to worry about people stealing all the loot, dont have to serve as a heal/buff bot because thats and i quote "what wizards and clerics are for"... I do still go out with groups however and i dont turn down anyone who wants to form one with me, but i find its a lot less stressful to go it alone most of the time.

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by magistrasa » Tue May 19, 2020 6:28 pm

My pet peeve is when people consider walking and talking and helping the people around them to be a waste of time while on a roleplay server.

This thread makes me sad.

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue May 19, 2020 6:33 pm

Exordius wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:17 pm
Dont have to waste time walking, dont have to waste time talking,
And don't have to waste time giving people CL 17 wizard buffs that will get instantly dispelled.


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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Exordius » Tue May 19, 2020 6:35 pm

As i had said i still do all of those things but when it comes to grinding and treasure hunting its better to go solo.

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Tue May 19, 2020 7:29 pm

Halibutthead wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:48 pm
also the thread has devolved into
Image
Basically me on the right when these 44 AC mundanes threaten to not -guard my 69 AC caster. lol
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Gouge Away » Tue May 19, 2020 7:40 pm

I'm still going back to what I said before, take 5 minutes to RP going over a checklist before you head out and encourage people to grab supplies from merchants. Merchants which most of the time are going to be a minute away if you're starting in a town.

This just happened the other day-- join a pick up group of random folks I barely knew in the Hub wanted to go to the lowerdark. I said great, let me grab bandages (low strength character, can't have 50 stacks on me at all times if I don't need them.) By the the time I was at the merchant half the party was already through the portal.

I swear one reason for lack of preparedness is a few people in any group (at least outside of tight-knit factions) always insist on being pushy and rushing ahead leaving no one else any time to prepare or even catch their breath. That even goes for buffs, I wonder how many people who complain about not getting them actually stand still long enough for them to be doled out.
Last edited by Gouge Away on Tue May 19, 2020 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue May 19, 2020 7:41 pm

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:04 pm
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:13 am
...While I acknowledge the point that it's no fun to be taken advantage of, a member of your party asking for buffs you don't have to spend money on while you're there isn't taking advantage. Lenses, sure, healing kits, sure. I feel you. I carry extra food, water, lenses, and kits because people rarely carry enough. I scold them IC as I have to start passing things out.

But buffs? If these irritate you, I can't help but wonder if you've forgotten that Arelith isn't a single player game.
This comes across as very entitled and demeaning to people who play casters. Not every caster is a ward bot. I like being able to solo content so that I don't have to worry about people leaving, going afk, dying, acting like loot goblins and running to the chest the moment my pixie unlocks it, etc. That last bit is the worst and seeing as we get no notifications when people take something from a chest we can't even properly call them out.

On topic, the thread is about being prepared. Wands, scrolls, and potions exist and are easily available. There are also plenty of mundane items that let you cast buffs once a day. If you're getting miffed because Sparky McFireblaster isn't using half his spellslots to make your character sparkly then maybe you are the one who should be better prepared. If you need wards to survive and you don't bring wards that is on you when you die.
I don't have the resources or coding knowledge available to give you hard data of my play history, but in the last five years, approximately half of my time has been spent playing a True Flame, probably a third of it on a Evocation-specialized wizard, and the remainder of it has been various side characters and concepts.

I do not believe my mentality comes off as entitled against casters, since I play casters (almost exclusively, at that) who need to blast things when they're soloing, too. I believe my mentality correctly points out that if you aren't soloing, there are more efficient ways to handle PvE content than blasting it (yes, this hurts to admit, because evocation is my favorite spell school), and that you might consider your FREE spell slot is an acceptable sacrifice to save the party 500-1000 gold on healing supplies, which in the long run benefits you the caster of the wards, because people aren't weighing the gains of their run against 5K in healing supplies and wands and potions.

Every problem you described is a function of being part of a party with atrocious teamwork - my argument is that if you feel you need to be able to "solo" in these situations, you should be picking different people to party with, motivated by coin IC at the very least, and probably OOC for your own enjoyment, as well. I would certainly rather solo than play with the selfish behavior you've described, but we're talking about optimum party play, and you don't base that on bad teammates.

It's great to say that we should all have wands, scrolls, and potions of every buff. However, IMO, it's entirely unsypmathetic and shows a lack of understanding of the primary party role of most dedicated casters that you think people should constantly burn gold on a dungeon run where the two primary goals besides the RP are gold gain and XP gain- making people burn items reduces their gold income, and is at least arguably influential on your loot goblins raiding your chest to try to make up for lost gold.

If they saw you spending spell slots to save them a wand of improved invisibility, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to quietly pocket that diamond to make up for the wand they burned.

My evoker drops nukes from his spellbook to ward people that can continue to damage long after he's run out of spell slots. It's just smart. If I want to run all nukes, I solo and I use a summon of some kind.

Even my true flame spams healing kits on the tank- because with 9 AC I wouldn't be surviving the archers without him.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Tue May 19, 2020 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by NauVaseline » Tue May 19, 2020 7:44 pm

I knew this one dude who would run headlong into active AoE's towards the enemy. every single mob he'd do this
eventually we just let him die and collectively -notellsed him

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Re: Pet Peev- Being Prepared

Post by Blood on my Lips » Tue May 19, 2020 10:37 pm

Gouge Away wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:32 pm
Some people in groups want to rush to wherever you're going and don't give anyone else time to prepare or will leave them behind if they do.
I used to be in a PvP guild in another game. I'm always prepared. After every trip I restock my healing kits, pots, wands, lenses, etc. It shouldn't be too hard to do since you probably just collected your share of the loot and sales.

As a wizard, nothing drives me crazy like the people that ask for wards I don't already have prepared right after I've rested. You're too late.

I like to travel as if I expect to be entirely on my own. I have everything I need and don't expect anyone else to provide anything for me. If they do, great. If not, I was prepared to be completely independent.

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