Shadowdancer Lore
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Shadowdancer Lore
So I am asking here: What is the official stance on the origins of this outsider being that seems tethered to a player character? Why do most people accept this particular type of outsider, when fiends and undead are not accepted?
(I am not trying to stir anything up, I am genuinely curious.)
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Re: Shadowdancer Lore
That flexibility doesn't extend to Undead and Fiends, because there's absolutely no plausible way to RP around having summoned or created those evil and socially unacceptable creatures.
So, to answer your question, that particular type of "Outsider" is accepted, because the general playerbase RP consensus is that it's not an Outsider.
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Re: Shadowdancer Lore
But your post confirmed my suspicions. There seems to be no consensus about these beings, other than they are “benign”, and people can RP them as they like.
I would love some official input about the origins of these outsiders.
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry
Re: Shadowdancer Lore
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.
Re: Shadowdancer Lore
I’m not trying to pass it if as such. I’m just wondering what the origins of the shadow is? What is the plane of existence from which it is summoned? And *what* is it?Drowboy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:14 pmPretty sure the outsider is either neutral or matches the SDs alignment, actually. Specifically changed from vanilla type thing. Also they're pretty explicitly, more so with epic shadowlord, an out and out magic copy of the SD, so you'd run into some logic problems there with the 'it's a demon equivalent' thing.
The Peter Pan analogy seems far fetched to me.
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Re: Shadowdancer Lore
On Arelith, if you examine a shadowdancer's shadow, the description specifies that it's not your average undead shade. That's the Arelith reason.
The RAW reason is a little different.
Bolded and underlined, the RAW says these shadows are not automatically evil, and that they don't create spawn. You could argue that it's a pretty niche difference, and that it's still undead to most uninformed characters. I'd agree with you, especially if you're playing, say, a druid. Most characters would normally have no way to distinguish between them, and some that can ought to not care (druids can lose their powers the same way a paladin can for not upholding their oaths, and part of those oaths is the destruction/non-condoning of undead).At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion.
These shadows are actually still supposed to be undead, with most of their immunities and drawbacks (not being able to enter a place warded against undead without penalties, not being able to take healing spells, etc), but on Arelith, they are clearly labelled outsiders on examine - so mostly, you have freely accessible Arelith information overriding the lore, in this case, and that's why.
They're probably outsiders to grant the turning immunity they're supposed to get.
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Re: Shadowdancer Lore
It's starting to feel like you're searching for a single absolute by which to judge others' RP around the SD shadow.
As far as I'm aware, there's been no ruling about it, and SDs have been pretty free to RP within the bounds of good taste. It might help us provide a more satisfying answer if we understood why you're asking.
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Re: Shadowdancer Lore
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.
Re: Shadowdancer Lore
It would be either an illusion of the shadow subtype, and thus not actually a creature at all, or ... well to be honest in FR Lore that would be what makes the most sense. If not then it is an Arelith created planar creature from the plane of shadows.
Summoning outsiders is not something that is inherently evil nor a source of ostracism. Remember, those Archons and Celestials the Good aligned characters summon are Outsiders, as are Slaadi. Theoretically so are the animals summoned by the summon creature spells, if I recall correctly the spell pulls a creature of the appropriate challenge rating from a plane similarly aligned to the summoner.
The Plane of Shadow is a Neutral aligned plane. It has areas that are infused with negative energy that draw undead creatures, and of course, its lack of light is appealing to a number of less savory evil types, (I am sure more than a few Vampires have opted to build lairs there because of that) but the plane itself is not evil, nor does it in any way affect its inhabitants to shift them towards an evil alignment, so there are plenty of neutral native creatures, and good aligned inhabitants are entirely possible.
Since no definitive answer is given you are free to RP it as you will. A Creature of independent will summoned from the Plane of Shadow that takes on the summoners form because it lacks an understanding of physicality or life on the Prime perhaps, or an Illusion made of material conjured from the Plane of Shadow entirely controlled by the will of the Dancer are the two options that make the most sense. (RPing it as an actual Shadow as in the undead creature from the MM makes less sense, since it lacks the mechanical label and thus has not vulnerability to any items spells or abilities that specifically target undead.)
Re: Shadowdancer Lore
I’ll accept this. Thank you for the elaboration Hinty!Hinty wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:40 pmA Shadow Dancers Shadow on Arelith is not undead. It has none of the ability drain abilities, and it does not create new Shadows. So it is not a Shadow in the sense of the monstrous manual creature. (Of course, most of the Shadows in the Arelith Forest are also not Undead, but I think that is an oversight from the creator)
It would be either an illusion of the shadow subtype, and thus not actually a creature at all, or ... well to be honest in FR Lore that would be what makes the most sense. If not then it is an Arelith created planar creature from the plane of shadows.
Summoning outsiders is not something that is inherently evil nor a source of ostracism. Remember, those Archons and Celestials the Good aligned characters summon are Outsiders, as are Slaadi. Theoretically so are the animals summoned by the summon creature spells, if I recall correctly the spell pulls a creature of the appropriate challenge rating from a plane similarly aligned to the summoner.
The Plane of Shadow is a Neutral aligned plane. It has areas that are infused with negative energy that draw undead creatures, and of course, its lack of light is appealing to a number of less savory evil types, (I am sure more than a few Vampires have opted to build lairs there because of that) but the plane itself is not evil, nor does it in any way affect its inhabitants to shift them towards an evil alignment, so there are plenty of neutral native creatures, and good aligned inhabitants are entirely possible.
Since no definitive answer is given you are free to RP it as you will. A Creature of independent will summoned from the Plane of Shadow that takes on the summoners form because it lacks an understanding of physicality or life on the Prime perhaps, or an Illusion made of material conjured from the Plane of Shadow entirely controlled by the will of the Dancer are the two options that make the most sense. (RPing it as an actual Shadow as in the undead creature from the MM makes less sense, since it lacks the mechanical label and thus has not vulnerability to any items spells or abilities that specifically target undead.)
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry
Re: Shadowdancer Lore
That’s mildly aggressive - trying to make me look like I’m acting in bad faith, when in fact all I’m trying to achieve, is to gain an understanding of the shadow entity that shadowdancers summon. I’m not here to judge anyone’s RP, or to argue that all shadowdancers must adhere to some golden standard of their shadows origin.The Rambling Midget wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:25 pmIt's starting to feel like you're searching for a single absolute by which to judge others' RP around the SD shadow.
It just struck me, that there was surprisingly little information about them.
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry
Re: Shadowdancer Lore
For that matter a shadowdancer doesn't have to have anything to do with the Shadow Plane, either, if you have some other concept. Your shadow can be undead, or it can be a "shadow elemental", or it can be a manifestation of illusion magic, or it can even be something like an ancestor spirit (or at least, your character can believe this is the case.) It's really wide open as is the interpretation of what "shadow" itself even entails.
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Re: Shadowdancer Lore
Re: Shadowdancer Lore
I just wanted to elaborate on a few things, not really dispute this well written response.Hinty wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:40 pmA Shadow Dancers Shadow on Arelith is not undead. It has none of the ability drain abilities, and it does not create new Shadows. So it is not a Shadow in the sense of the monstrous manual creature. (Of course, most of the Shadows in the Arelith Forest are also not Undead, but I think that is an oversight from the creator)
...
Summoning outsiders is not something that is inherently evil nor a source of ostracism. Remember, those Archons and Celestials the Good aligned characters summon are Outsiders, as are Slaadi. Theoretically so are the animals summoned by the summon creature spells, if I recall correctly the spell pulls a creature of the appropriate challenge rating from a plane similarly aligned to the summoner.
...
The Plane of Shadow is a Neutral aligned plane. It has areas that are infused with negative energy that draw undead creatures, and of course, its lack of light is appealing to a number of less savory evil types, (I am sure more than a few Vampires have opted to build lairs there because of that) but the plane itself is not evil, nor does it in any way affect its inhabitants to shift them towards an evil alignment, so there are plenty of neutral native creatures, and good aligned inhabitants are entirely possible.
in 3e while the Plane of Shadows is neutral, it's inhabitants are tend to be evil aligned. Between the,
Malaugrym, Nightwalkers, wraiths, undead, shadows, it has a pretty obvious leaning. The shadovar, both the human ones, and the actual shades are technically neutral. However consider that they tortured the seraph of Cyric to convert to Shar, as well as melting the high ice to change the weather on the sword coast, setting free the phearim, putting the entire city of Evereska in a Shadow bubble to let it die off, banished Elminster to Hell, not to mention what they did to Tilverton. So technically neutral, but not really good people. . .
As for shadows themselves they are always Undead, but not all undead are shadows, in the case of nwn they are undead with Outsider levels. Here on Arelith they have been made an Outsider with class levels in Outsider probably to nice up the RP to be more accessible. A shadow dancers shadow takes the shadow dancers alignment, so in the stock setting it could be an undead of neutral alignment and is ultimately bound to the shadow dancers will. The original feat for Epic shadowlord even specifies that it is undead. I am pretty sure it also causes Str drain as an onhit ability like actual shadows would. Raising you as a shadow on death, is just not applied to creatures in NwN I expect for practical reasons.
So on Arelith it's a bit more open ended with how you treat the creature. In PnP it would be an extra planar, ethereal undead. Why our shadows are treated differently isn't a question I have an answer for.
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Re: Shadowdancer Lore
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Re: Shadowdancer Lore
this is a public service
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Re: Shadowdancer Lore
Even by official lore, the undead would not necessarily be evil since it takes on the alignment of its summoner. Again I was just adding some of the lore and flavor text from the books, the contrast where Arelith appears to diverge from the source here.AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:19 amIn past threads about this we've eventually covered that the shadow is not evil, not an undead and can be RPed in multiple legitimate ways which dont necessarily tie the summoner to evil doings right away. Are they evil on the character sheet? I dont remember anymore. I do like those who RP the shadow as their evil or more selfish part of them that affects their decisions when it's 'out' and independent but that's just one way.
And banishing Elminster to Hell was indeed a public service, but you know he comes back eventually.
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Re: Shadowdancer Lore
We dont play like that here.
Undead = evil.
Read their descriptions. There's not a single undead summon that isnt angry or suffering or really mean looking. moral-animating, jergalite animating, and all sorts of none-evil undead simply arent supported by nwn and dont exist on arelith. I've even personally made a suggestion at some point to make it possible for a follower of jergal to summon something ELSE that looks more like a warrior than a zombie/mummy/vamp and isnt evil but that's not yet the case and not supported In Game.
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Re: Shadowdancer Lore
Again, this is the source material. which clearly diverges from how it is on Arelith, which I thought I made clear. Especially since they are not undead on Arelith either. Nor would their alignment being neutral really assuages the concerns of your average joe commoner if they see one.AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:56 pmWe dont play like that here.
Undead = evil.
Read their descriptions. There's not a single undead summon that isnt angry or suffering or really mean looking. moral-animating, jergalite animating, and all sorts of none-evil undead simply arent supported by nwn and dont exist on arelith. I've even personally made a suggestion at some point to make it possible for a follower of jergal to summon something ELSE that looks more like a warrior than a zombie/mummy/vamp and isnt evil but that's not yet the case and not supported In Game.
I am well aware undead are evil here. . .
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Re: Shadowdancer Lore
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too