EDK
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EDK
I was wondering what's the experience that other players using this feat have.
Personally, I do agree that in its previous iteration it was far too good, but I also can't help the feeling that it's somewhat mediocre ATM - often struggling in PvE against some non-boss spawns even.
My main finding would be something along these lines:
In its previous version the EDK was a fantastic tank, being able to go toe-to-toe with even the engame boss spawns. To remedy this, it's been altered to give it more of a "glasscannon" vibe. I've noticed however, that the AI just isn't good enough to pull this off.
Most of the time when the dragon gets summonned it
1. wastes the first round flat-footed doing nothing (always and regardless of whether the player tool gets used or not)
2. provokes attacks of opportunity wasting another round breaching a target regardless of whether it was actally warded or not
3. trades a round of attacks and dies as it's usually below half hp at that point
I dunno... maybe remove the breach to have it perform better?
Personally, I do agree that in its previous iteration it was far too good, but I also can't help the feeling that it's somewhat mediocre ATM - often struggling in PvE against some non-boss spawns even.
My main finding would be something along these lines:
In its previous version the EDK was a fantastic tank, being able to go toe-to-toe with even the engame boss spawns. To remedy this, it's been altered to give it more of a "glasscannon" vibe. I've noticed however, that the AI just isn't good enough to pull this off.
Most of the time when the dragon gets summonned it
1. wastes the first round flat-footed doing nothing (always and regardless of whether the player tool gets used or not)
2. provokes attacks of opportunity wasting another round breaching a target regardless of whether it was actally warded or not
3. trades a round of attacks and dies as it's usually below half hp at that point
I dunno... maybe remove the breach to have it perform better?
Re: EDK
It doesn't last long enough to be worthwhile IMO. It's easily killed by a lot of things due to mediocre AC, severely reduced DI and lowered HP. The damage is decent enough, at least. Gate is almost on par with it, and it doesn't cost a Feat and has more utility due to the diverse number of summons that can come from it.
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Ayiesha Dahyarif
Ilphaeryl Xun'viir
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Re: EDK
It's currently slightly stronger than the gate summon.
I took it because I wanted to summon a dragon with my wizard.
If your not wanting to waste any epic feats don't take it take something more useful and use gate for back up(honestly i do this anyway as the dragon gets killed faster) when your elemental dies.
No one uses the dragon and expects it to kill anything boss like because it just can't do it and it can't tank it either meaning it's purely for fun.
I took it because I wanted to summon a dragon with my wizard.
If your not wanting to waste any epic feats don't take it take something more useful and use gate for back up(honestly i do this anyway as the dragon gets killed faster) when your elemental dies.
No one uses the dragon and expects it to kill anything boss like because it just can't do it and it can't tank it either meaning it's purely for fun.
Re: EDK
I would say it needs a boost too, as currently I personally wouldn't bother with it at all.
Perhaps a simple HP boost would prevent it from being too much of a damage beast in PVP/PVE, whilst actually making it an acceptable tank.
Perhaps a simple HP boost would prevent it from being too much of a damage beast in PVP/PVE, whilst actually making it an acceptable tank.
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Re: EDK
It definitely needs something to make it worth burning the epic feat to take it, and not something that gets shredded worse than ancient elementals do against epic bosses.
Characters:
- Eleanor Allias, Paladin of Selûne
Former:
- Mather Allias, Elrith Ferein, Simone Beregnor-Springscar, Thalia Loreas
- Eleanor Allias, Paladin of Selûne
Former:
- Mather Allias, Elrith Ferein, Simone Beregnor-Springscar, Thalia Loreas
Re: EDK
I suppose that the stats were tweaked mainly with the following in mind
not to make it too much of a powerhouse, mainly taking its PvP performance into consideration
not to make it too durable, so that it can't tank endgame bosses while the mage blasts them into oblivion
Personally, I would like to have more fun with it. Very often I end up saving it during PvE as some sort of trump card... only not needing to use it at all or being disappointed by it when I do.
If the feat's power level is the main concern here, perhaps putting the feat in its current form on some prolonged cooldown instead of it being a 1/day ability would not break the balance in any way and allow you to use it more often during adventuring (or at least lead to less feel bad moments when it gets unceremoniously smothered by random mobs).
not to make it too much of a powerhouse, mainly taking its PvP performance into consideration
not to make it too durable, so that it can't tank endgame bosses while the mage blasts them into oblivion
Personally, I would like to have more fun with it. Very often I end up saving it during PvE as some sort of trump card... only not needing to use it at all or being disappointed by it when I do.
If the feat's power level is the main concern here, perhaps putting the feat in its current form on some prolonged cooldown instead of it being a 1/day ability would not break the balance in any way and allow you to use it more often during adventuring (or at least lead to less feel bad moments when it gets unceremoniously smothered by random mobs).
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Re: EDK
Yes, something like a 10 minute CD (6 minute duration and 4 minute down time for a CL30) would be nice if the power is going to stay as it is, then it would certainly get more use, than it just being a one off that just gets shredded immediately.
Also, something in script so it doesn't breach unwarded enemies first turn would be nice.
Also, something in script so it doesn't breach unwarded enemies first turn would be nice.
Characters:
- Eleanor Allias, Paladin of Selûne
Former:
- Mather Allias, Elrith Ferein, Simone Beregnor-Springscar, Thalia Loreas
- Eleanor Allias, Paladin of Selûne
Former:
- Mather Allias, Elrith Ferein, Simone Beregnor-Springscar, Thalia Loreas
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Re: EDK
Maybe it's just me but I dont see a problem in this, here above.-XXX- wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:35 pmMost of the time when the dragon gets summonned it
1. wastes the first round flat-footed doing nothing (always and regardless of whether the player tool gets used or not)
2. provokes attacks of opportunity wasting another round breaching a target regardless of whether it was actally warded or not
3. trades a round of attacks and dies as it's usually below half hp at that point
Wasting 3-4 rounds of your opponents to kill the EDK is a legit and balanced outcome of this ability in pvp and that's only going to happen if your opponent is already fully buffed up and ready to rekt things. Its still a worthy epic feat option even for pvp.
To all those who say it's not worth picking anymore, I dont know how you miss the immense value of a big stompy summon with a huge hit box to hide in that cannot be ignored and WILL waste at least several rounds of the opponents action economy, and putting you significantly ahead just through that.
If the AI can be polished there a bit, good. But no buffs.
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Re: EDK
Well that's the thing - it doesn't perform that way anymore. Not in PvE at least, and almost certainly not in PvP.AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:18 amTo all those who say it's not worth picking anymore, I dont know how you miss the immense value of a big stompy summon with a huge hit box to hide in that cannot be ignored and WILL waste at least several rounds of the opponents action economy, and putting you significantly ahead just through that.
It's also greatly outperformed in this role by monolithic elementals
Re: EDK
Curiosity, why are you saying that it cannot be ignored? What stops the opponent from just targeting you instead of the dragon?AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:18 amMaybe it's just me but I dont see a problem in this, here above.-XXX- wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:35 pmMost of the time when the dragon gets summonned it
1. wastes the first round flat-footed doing nothing (always and regardless of whether the player tool gets used or not)
2. provokes attacks of opportunity wasting another round breaching a target regardless of whether it was actally warded or not
3. trades a round of attacks and dies as it's usually below half hp at that point
Wasting 3-4 rounds of your opponents to kill the EDK is a legit and balanced outcome of this ability in pvp and that's only going to happen if your opponent is already fully buffed up and ready to rekt things. Its still a worthy epic feat option even for pvp.
To all those who say it's not worth picking anymore, I dont know how you miss the immense value of a big stompy summon with a huge hit box to hide in that cannot be ignored and WILL waste at least several rounds of the opponents action economy, and putting you significantly ahead just through that.
If the AI can be polished there a bit, good. But no buffs.
Playing:
Olwin (AKA Olicoros Vrozt Akael Shilligg Jugem Dojj Winzalfur AKA That £$%^ing Wizard)
Olwin (AKA Olicoros Vrozt Akael Shilligg Jugem Dojj Winzalfur AKA That £$%^ing Wizard)
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Re: EDK
I just said why.
Either way, the nerfs to EDK werent that huge. It mostly took a hit to it's spell resistance and DR. It's still a semi-wm with ab that most characters cant really ignore, especially if they need to do things which toggle off their expertise. It is very useful. It is just not a pvp-win button.
Maybe I'm uneducated on this front but I was under the impression that Monolithic stuff require 28 CL. If that's not incorrect, its a bigger investment than EDK.
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Re: EDK
OK, but that's not really like... answering the question.
Do you mean it can't be ignored, because it is seen as such a threat or is there a feature I'm not seeing?
I'm not tryna be snarky here, I'm genuinely trying to get why you're saying the opponent won't target the mage with arrows or something or drop a HiPS to stab em in the back.
Playing:
Olwin (AKA Olicoros Vrozt Akael Shilligg Jugem Dojj Winzalfur AKA That £$%^ing Wizard)
Olwin (AKA Olicoros Vrozt Akael Shilligg Jugem Dojj Winzalfur AKA That £$%^ing Wizard)
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Re: EDK
Dont really know how to answer that, honestly. Everyone is an archer with hips or something?Ninjimmy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:36 pmOK, but that's not really like... answering the question.
Do you mean it can't be ignored, because it is seen as such a threat or is there a feature I'm not seeing?
I'm not tryna be snarky here, I'm genuinely trying to get why you're saying the opponent won't target the mage with arrows or something or drop a HiPS to stab em in the back.
As I said, this dragon also makes the mage harder to CLICK.
And it /is/ still a threat, if you ignore it, it will do damage eventually. Before the nerfs, the darn thing could 1v1 cookie cutter builds with 39 ab and 70+ ac (with experitse). by how it looks to me now, it is in it's right place as a good side kick. It is easier to kill, it is not all that much weaker in ab so you should get rid of it unless you're an archer with hips and you are very good at clicking and camera angles.
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Re: EDK
Right, think I'm with it, you mean like the opposing player will have mechanical difficulty clicking on the mage due to the dragon.AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:04 pm
Dont really know how to answer that, honestly. Everyone is an archer with hips or something?
As I said, this dragon also makes the mage harder to CLICK.
And it /is/ still a threat, if you ignore it, it will do damage eventually. Before the nerfs, the darn thing could 1v1 cookie cutter builds with 39 ab and 70+ ac (with experitse). by how it looks to me now, it is in it's right place as a good side kick. It is easier to kill, it is not all that much weaker in ab so you should get rid of it unless you're an archer with hips and you are very good at clicking and camera angles.
Which could well be a thing? It hasn't been my experience.
I've never had an encounter where dropping the dragon has given me the impression my wizard was harder for folks to target, especially if they click while I'm casting. Which is kind of a problem since you cant Gsanc with it out (though that's a totally reasonable nerf, it'd be cheesetastic if not).
Plus it tends to get shredded if it's dropped in any of the endgame dungeons.
But I've not had to PvP an EDK before so maybe it IS still good at blocking in PvP it's just unprepared for PVE.
Either way, think I get your stance now.
Playing:
Olwin (AKA Olicoros Vrozt Akael Shilligg Jugem Dojj Winzalfur AKA That £$%^ing Wizard)
Olwin (AKA Olicoros Vrozt Akael Shilligg Jugem Dojj Winzalfur AKA That £$%^ing Wizard)
Re: EDK
If I could trade it out for vampires/mummies I absolutely would in a heartbeat, but I missed the rebuild window after the lore changes.
In the past it was crazy strong and there'd be half a dozen dragons running everywhere during a battle with multiple characters, so a nerf was needed.
Now it's a one-battle summon that often can't handle whatever its summoned against whether it's pve or pvp. Most fighters can kill even the undead variety in a round or two, and most clerics and mages won't have trouble with the usual WoF dismissal.
There's defenitly an argument that its mechanical size is an advantage by being close to it - but it's also an annoying disadvantage for that same reason.
Matched up against mummy dust you have an endless duration trio of excellent pve mobs that can fast intercept and harass characters in pvp too.
Sure they can be defeated in a similar manner to the dragon but the duration, combined with the spells you might be willing (or able) to spend on making them better makes it no contest which feat is going to be far more useful in far more scenarios.
Of course this is all from the pov of being evil. If you're good aligned the EDK is probably pretty nice to use since mummy dust isn't likely to be an option, but I would personally advise nobody to take it even in that case.
In the past it was crazy strong and there'd be half a dozen dragons running everywhere during a battle with multiple characters, so a nerf was needed.
Now it's a one-battle summon that often can't handle whatever its summoned against whether it's pve or pvp. Most fighters can kill even the undead variety in a round or two, and most clerics and mages won't have trouble with the usual WoF dismissal.
There's defenitly an argument that its mechanical size is an advantage by being close to it - but it's also an annoying disadvantage for that same reason.
Matched up against mummy dust you have an endless duration trio of excellent pve mobs that can fast intercept and harass characters in pvp too.
Sure they can be defeated in a similar manner to the dragon but the duration, combined with the spells you might be willing (or able) to spend on making them better makes it no contest which feat is going to be far more useful in far more scenarios.
Of course this is all from the pov of being evil. If you're good aligned the EDK is probably pretty nice to use since mummy dust isn't likely to be an option, but I would personally advise nobody to take it even in that case.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.
So we're very much on track.
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Re: EDK
Well... Good. Why should it solo kill bosses or players for you lol.
This is situational and misleading. Many builds dont pierce the DR. Many builds also need to buff before even engaging the dragon or the player. And very few builds can really smoke it in 1 round, and it probably takes some lucky rolls.
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Re: EDK
The dragon's interfering with targeting is manageable, but even then it works both ways and messes with the summoner's ability to target too.AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:04 pmDont really know how to answer that, honestly. Everyone is an archer with hips or something?
As I said, this dragon also makes the mage harder to CLICK.
I wouldn't really list this as the main selling point as to why the EDK is good as is
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Re: EDK
The dragon is largely good against builds that casters are already strong against, but largely useless against those they would need the help against.
Re: EDK
It's representative of the trouble of the feat. It's supposed to be good for just one battle, but can't even handle the one task it's supposed to do.AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:14 pmWell... Good. Why should it solo kill bosses or players for you lol.
I'm not sure the dragon knight will ever be anything but super weak or super strong because of this intended role. Every balance pass will probably just seesaw from one to the other.
There's simply better options.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.
So we're very much on track.
Re: EDK
Just want to add to the "EDK is kind of crap now" pile. I used it a few times on my recent PM character after the nerfs. Every time I dropped it, it was dead before it started meleeing things (It'd spend a round activating the fear aura, and a round casting greater breach). This is both in PvP situations, and against boss PvE encounters. Nine seconds of someone beating the dragon to death isn't really worth an epic feat to my mind.
Also, I was summoning the dracolich which I would assume is the most survivable of the streams because it has undead immunities. I can only imagine how much faster the others would have died in those situations.
Also, I was summoning the dracolich which I would assume is the most survivable of the streams because it has undead immunities. I can only imagine how much faster the others would have died in those situations.
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Re: EDK
EDK is still fairly useful at least for PVE bosses. Want it to tank better? Try throwing an Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, and Bear's Endurance on it. Get the different summoning streams and use the right one for the situation. A red or gold dragon can eat meteor swarms all day and be fine, a silver one will go down pretty fast. Likewise, that silver dragon can eat ice storms all day while the red or gold one would die. If you're waiting until the middle of the battle to drop an unwarded silver dragon in the middle of a bunch of meteor swarms and Abazuur's fire breath of course you're going to get bad results. You can also use healing kits or spells to keep your dragon going. EDK might not be as overpowered as it used to be but it's not the wet tissue some of you claim it is either if used correctly.
“The punishing of wits enhances their authority.”
― Francis Bacon
― Francis Bacon
Re: EDK
Yes, I tried fully buffing a dracolich EDK and have it fight mobs while pumping NE bursts into it.
It still performs mediocre at best.
Also, I don't think that having to buff round-based summons for them to be any good should be the baseline
It still performs mediocre at best.
Also, I don't think that having to buff round-based summons for them to be any good should be the baseline
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Re: EDK
Do you have Epic Spell Focus Conjuration? Because in my experience even after the nerf dragons shred everything pre-epic and hold up fairly well even against end-game bosses. I never used the dracolich stream, but I would think it would be pretty durable with its undead immunities.
“The punishing of wits enhances their authority.”
― Francis Bacon
― Francis Bacon
Re: EDK
Yes it is, it has most of the immunities the other dragons have alongside the undead properties.
I tried all the dragons with and without the feats needed to buff them - they're all mediocre.
The Gate Slaad sometimes even outperforms them thanks to its speed and DPS, not mentioning its smaller size making it a viable option in smaller corridors and tight spaces
I tried all the dragons with and without the feats needed to buff them - they're all mediocre.
The Gate Slaad sometimes even outperforms them thanks to its speed and DPS, not mentioning its smaller size making it a viable option in smaller corridors and tight spaces