Parry AC Bonus

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Dr. B
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Parry AC Bonus

Post by Dr. B » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:17 am

The update says "when your weapon requires martial or exotic proficiency," the bonuses apply. I just want to make sure I understand: by "requires" martial weapon proficiency, do you mean weapons that are available only through the martial weapon proficiency feat, or do you mean any weapon that is provided by the martial weapon feat? For instance, the rapier is provided by the martial weapon proficiency feat, but also by elf and rogue proficiency. So would it get the parry bonuses, or no? What if the person using it doesn't have martial proficiency, but is an elf or rogue?

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by NMan7496 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:06 am

If you examine a weapon, it should tell you the needed proficiency, it probably goes off of that. So since rapier is martial, elf, and rogue, it should be affected if you have any of these as the weapon is still tagged as needing martial proficiency despite you qualifying through elf or rogue proficiency.
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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Bjorn Blue Tiger » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:12 pm

NMan is right.

The only missing detail is that, since all weapons are usable on Arelith despite your character proficiency feats, you will be able to receive the bonus as long as the weapon requires martial or exotic proficiency. It is really the weapon that matters here and not the character.

But! If you do so and doesn't have the proficiency feat for the specific weapon, you will still receive the AB penality.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:20 pm

Bjorn Blue Tiger wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:12 pm
NMan is right.

The only missing detail is that, since all weapons are usable on Arelith despite your character proficiency feats, you will be able to receive the bonus as long as the weapon requires martial or exotic proficiency. It is really the weapon that matters here and not the character.

But! If you do so and doesn't have the proficiency feat for the specific weapon, you will still receive the AB penality.
Wait, wait. But doesn't this mean now mages can get +6 shield bonus without needing to get Still Spell and Auto-Still? Sorcerers don't have the skill points for this, but Wizards surely do. And they don't care about the AB penalty.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by DM Spyre » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:38 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:20 pm
Bjorn Blue Tiger wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:12 pm
NMan is right.

The only missing detail is that, since all weapons are usable on Arelith despite your character proficiency feats, you will be able to receive the bonus as long as the weapon requires martial or exotic proficiency. It is really the weapon that matters here and not the character.

But! If you do so and doesn't have the proficiency feat for the specific weapon, you will still receive the AB penality.
Wait, wait. But doesn't this mean now mages can get +6 shield bonus without needing to get Still Spell and Auto-Still? Sorcerers don't have the skill points for this, but Wizards surely do. And they don't care about the AB penalty.
This is being considered - I would not build around that expectation as further alterations to this change may occur which will make the investment moot for certain classes.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:59 pm

This really irks me. A new mechanic gets introduced that gives you more AC for an investment of 30 skill points, similar to Tumble. So of course we build around that. Then we get told not to build around it because it is going to get nerfed. What? If you only want Swashbucklers to make use of it, restrict it to only Swashbucklers so that we don't have to relevel our Sorcerers, Spellswords, and Clerics later on. It's a real bummer, people constantly complain about monk dips, and when we finally get a cookie that lets us make good builds without monk dips it immediately gets beaten to death with the nerf bat until we all give up and go back to dipping monk.
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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Xerah » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:34 pm

We’re talking about something that just came out yesterday, right?
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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by NMan7496 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:39 pm

Xerah wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:34 pm
We’re talking about something that just came out yesterday, right?
Basically, yes.
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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Bjorn Blue Tiger » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:48 pm

This mechanic was never meant to be a free boon to AC, like tumble, but an alternative to shields, for any classes.

Since using a shield for some classes requires a lot more than 30 skill points, we want to be sure investing in parry is not a no brainer decision and avoid making it the way to go for every classes.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Griefmaker » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:55 pm

I asked about this in another thread, but I suspect this parry AC will be disabled for Spellswords, due to their natural progression of shield AC when having their off-hand empty?

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Bjorn Blue Tiger » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:07 pm

It is not disabled for SSs, but since both bonus are Shield, it won't stack, only the highest will count.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Griefmaker » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:07 pm

Bjorn Blue Tiger wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:07 pm
It is not disabled for SSs, but since both bonus are Shield, it won't stack, only the highest will count.
Ah, understood. Thanks!

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Dr. B » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:20 pm

Good to know. In that case I would change the wording of the update from "requires Martial Weapon Proficiency" to "is covered by Martial Weapon Proficiency," since the former is technically incorrect, or better yet, just provide a list of the affected weapons.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:54 pm

I'd really like some clarification on what classes are allowed to benefit from this feature and what classes aren't. Judging by Spyre's post it already looks like this cookie might get taken away from casters. I don't want to come up with a nice build, spend a month or two leveling it, then have Irongron show up at my door with a nerf bat saying I've been a very bad power gamer.
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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:16 pm

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:54 pm
I'd really like some clarification on what classes are allowed to benefit from this feature and what classes aren't. Judging by Spyre's post it already looks like this cookie might get taken away from casters. I don't want to come up with a nice build, spend a month or two leveling it, then have Irongron show up at my door with a nerf bat saying I've been a very bad power gamer.
If you haven't gotten the memo, I'll clarify -

Arelith fluctuates constantly. You should never expect to reliably build something on mechanics that are less than a year old (even then). You're more than welcome to, but you should just expect to have little to no certainty that you're plan will pan out.

If you're looking to play it safe, pick classes and mechanics that are old and entrenched. You're more likely to receive minor buffs than nerfs that way.
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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:35 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:16 pm
NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:54 pm
I'd really like some clarification on what classes are allowed to benefit from this feature and what classes aren't. Judging by Spyre's post it already looks like this cookie might get taken away from casters. I don't want to come up with a nice build, spend a month or two leveling it, then have Irongron show up at my door with a nerf bat saying I've been a very bad power gamer.
If you haven't gotten the memo, I'll clarify -

Arelith fluctuates constantly. You should never expect to reliably build something on mechanics that are less than a year old (even then). You're more than welcome to, but you should just expect to have little to no certainty that you're plan will pan out.

If you're looking to play it safe, pick classes and mechanics that are old and entrenched. You're more likely to receive minor buffs than nerfs that way.
I've already got nerfed on a couple of characters when I was using mechanics that were well over a year old. It seems no one is safe from the nerf bat.
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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:09 pm

We all rolled characters because of updates. Sometimes even in the middle of a plot. This happens.

On top of that, we're talking about cheesing Parry as mages, not something that should be a thing, agree? so using common sense and not building around such things, is probably wise just in general.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:28 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:09 pm
We all rolled characters because of updates. Sometimes even in the middle of a plot. This happens.

On top of that, we're talking about cheesing Parry as mages, not something that should be a thing, agree? so using common sense and not building around such things, is probably wise just in general.
Spellsword exists you know...
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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Gouge Away » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:27 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:09 pm
On top of that, we're talking about cheesing Parry as mages, not something that should be a thing, agree? so using common sense and not building around such things, is probably wise just in general.
Arguably mages shouldn't have discipline or tumble either then. Maxing a skill is supposed to be just that, training in a skill. It's not out of the question that a mage would learn a little fencing.

Since it wouldn't work with a staff a mage would need to hold a rather useless weapon in the main hand. Ranger dip, epic mage armor and maybe spellthief armor and the parry AC would all add up to something that might be worthwhile (?) but without doing the math I wouldn't imagine it's so good it's going to be the new meta.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:38 pm

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:28 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:09 pm
We all rolled characters because of updates. Sometimes even in the middle of a plot. This happens.

On top of that, we're talking about cheesing Parry as mages, not something that should be a thing, agree? so using common sense and not building around such things, is probably wise just in general.
Spellsword exists you know...
Sure, they can use the skill but they dont really benefit from the ac because when they have an empty off-hand they get ac anyway, you know...
Gouge Away wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:27 pm
Arguably mages shouldn't have discipline or tumble either then. Maxing a skill is supposed to be just that, training in a skill. It's not out of the question that a mage would learn a little fencing.
Yeah I cant really argue with that. Thing is, balance-wise, there's no replacement to this 'eco system'. But seeing all mages suddenly fight with daggers instead of magic staffs (because this bonus ac is probably better than the staff properties) is quite a different story. There should be some restrictions at least. Obviously, casting shouldnt work in parry mode (that's probably already the case right?) and perhaps other ways to make it not too popular and overpowered.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:09 pm

The last sorcerer I played used two daggers instead of a staff. If I could have picked up +6 AC from Parry on them I would have. We have two entire prestige classes unique to Arelith dedicated to the idea of a caster who also does melee. Even Gandalf from LotR uses a sword to defend himself at close range and he's probably the most iconic wizard in pop culture.
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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by DM Spyre » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:22 am

We are looking to decide on a final path within days - not weeks. And, we have advised our DMs to not offer relevels due to parry building to avoid impacting someone should their build not qualify down the road or they are not satisfied with the change.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Elaetheus » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:38 am

Spyre wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:22 am
We are looking to decide on a final path within days - not weeks. And, we have advised our DMs to not offer relevels due to parry building to avoid impacting someone should their build not qualify down the road or they are not satisfied with the change.
One option would be to somehow tie it to BAB progression / APR.

I get the wizard remark above but I guess bards or spellswords would train to parry. The spellswords can already hotbar the shield and weave it in between spellcasts. At least with parry we could look cooler and wear no shield whatsoever ;)

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by dallion43 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:50 am

Some input.

When not using a weapon on which you can use -twohand.
-> QS two weapons from the one.h-edged group. Alternate.

SS shield AC is +5 or +4 on most builds. +6 is...a theoretical possibility, yes. So +1/2AC.
Ada. shield is usually QS due to the line above. No need to remove it and lose 1/2AC and reaction time anymore when in need of quick mord/igm/etc.

SB, majority of sneak builds, etc, etc, +1AC. Even I.TWF sneak builds will take it for versatility.

Sorc/Wiz, ST armor 3b.ar+3ar.b+4dex+6sh.p+3a.he = 19AC.
Melee Ada. gear: 8b.ar+3ar.b+1dex+6a.sh+3a.he = 21AC.
Now cast EMA. 23AC vs 21AC.
Now consider this is a sh.bonus. Not d.bonus. DS.
30 sps vs 1pre.ep feat and 1 epic feat. And +1AC on top of GS.Shield.
Butter knifes of parry exist and will probably allow parry AC. From what I recall, they don't cost much. Probably double basinable in comparison to GS.Shield.
Yes, this is a *vaccum*, on the fly, calculation. New arcane meta? Nah.
I admit it will be funny to see if left like that :p.

Parry AC should only be active when one is in parry mode. Even if we put calculations aside, it is simply logical, imho.

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I wouldn't recommend building anything live based on recent changes unless 1RL month passed since then at least.

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Re: Parry AC Bonus

Post by Elaetheus » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:13 am

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:59 pm
This really irks me. A new mechanic gets introduced that gives you more AC for an investment of 30 skill points, similar to Tumble. So of course we build around that. Then we get told not to build around it because it is going to get nerfed. What? If you only want Swashbucklers to make use of it, restrict it to only Swashbucklers so that we don't have to relevel our Sorcerers, Spellswords, and Clerics later on. It's a real bummer, people constantly complain about monk dips, and when we finally get a cookie that lets us make good builds without monk dips it immediately gets beaten to death with the nerf bat until we all give up and go back to dipping monk.
I agree with the statement that such a mechanical change could have been introduced more coherently. It was even rolled out first on live and not on pgcc. Not sure about monk dips due to inexperience, but if it is true, then I’d greet the change encore, since, indeed, having a fashion for a dip in a RP-restrictive class feels unhealthy.

The fact thad development volatility is not reducible to zero does not mean that reducing it when possible is not to be pursued. Certain conservatism in this regard would thus be welcome.

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