Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

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Anomandaris
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Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Anomandaris » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:25 pm

I gotta say I'm very frustrated by the nature of these changes and also how changes are being made. Many I feel have had an adverse impact while not meaningfully solving the actual balance problems. I'm sorry if the tone here is not super tactful at points, I'm a bit peeved. I do appreciate all the hard work people put into this server and making it a fun place to play. But I'm also not gonna patronize people by not being honest about what I think.

Grenades to start:
They were not OP, they were powerful. They have their limitations and require a very heavy Rogue class investment to be useful. The changes to blinding speed already have had an effect. Grenades are one of the few profound advantages to going deeper into Rogue (there are a couple to be sure) as opposed to some of the dip/cross-class options, especially given how OTHER benefits stack for other abilities (like stealth MS, BS cooldown etc). You made what was a reasonably powerful, niche tool that wasn't used that often basically useless. Change from CL/2 to CL/6 is absurd. It's not a minor tweak it's a gutting. I'm baffled as to who thought it needed this big of a change. It's one of the few aspects of Rogue that doesn't get stacking benefits from other classes like SD/Assassin/Swash. Where was there a thread about people running around being OP w/ grenades ruining the server? The number of times I've even seen grenades thrown to meaningful effect in PvP I can count on one hand probably (over several years). And honestly, about half those times it was for the slow effect on acid not the dmg, it was used as an escape tool. It's spellmonks, monk/rangers, wild mages and other builds that were the problem here. VERY FEW if actually none have the Rogue lvls to get the DC's and dmg that high on these grenades. I just really don't get it. This is an awful change that adds zero value to server balance and simply reduces build & playstyle flexibility outside cookie cutters. Honestly it should be reverted or at LEAST lessened and if so the DC's & dmg stack with SD/Assassin etc.

Itemization Second:
Sure ok change some items. Some of the subtle tweaks were great. Reigning in stacking discipline I can see, it was small numerical tweaks and to skills not primary ability scores. Being able to hit +12 on so few item slots is very powerful and only the case for certain ability types. But every single build reaches +12 on their primary stat gearing. And what about the impact this might have on current players? Grandfather at least. I have an almost million gold pair of 5% fine elven silk boots. I also have about a million gold into 2x runed Svirf hammers. Technically you didn't really change much because I can still get +12 dex from itemization. All you did was royally screw me over because in order to do that given I'm fully geared I'd need to get NEW svirf hammers and add +1 dex to them instead of a d4 dmg (which is a very minor tradeoff given defensive essences). You know how much of a pain that is? How expensive that is? Why bother gearing or working towards anything if it's just gonna get taken away next week? There's so many other ways to handle this. Add comparable str boots. Change them to requiring a higher Rune tier so you can't 5% them.

You're fixing things that aren't actually problems. Monk dips are the problem not Rogue grenades or Fine Elven boots. And meanwhile you've given Spellswords access to finessable moonblades? You basically just buffed dex spellswords inadvertantly. The community is saying dex/monk dip dex is too strong or at least str playstyle is limited and we've got a new dex sublcass? What? I'm sorry, it's just inconsistent.

This kind of stuff makes me not want to log onto my character let alone spin up a new character. What's next? Just using my PC as an example, over the past months you've nerfed SD's several times (HIPS change) but gave no re-lelvel to account for changes. On top of this you added a sweet new tool for SD's but yet again, can't use it. You've buffed my race (Svirfneblin) but given me no means to enjoy those changes. You've nerfed grenades & one of my core items dropping me from a standard +12 to primary stat itemization scheme (which literally everyone achieves anyway) and thus necessitated I spend tons of gold and time to fix it, instead of rping, for no good reason. And yet again offer no consideration in the form of grandfathering or replacement equipment etc. Any one of these things fine, but over and over it starts to get really old and add up.

It's frankly kind of exhausting. I dread the announcement updates these days. I understand you're all just trying to make the server better for everyone but in the process you're irking a lot of ppl and me (at least) very discouraged to play the server or current PC that I've invested a ton of time into. This may be hyperbolic and a bit emotional (I'll admit that) but I've seen enough of the same said by others I know I'm not the only person that thinks this way. Please be more careful, if you make changes like this offer something to lessen the blow and inconvenience players less. Or, make more subtle changes. Or focus on changes to the glaring issues like Monk Dips and not drastic, sweeping changes that gut entire builds like Grenadiers (certainly not OP). Dropping some of these builds from reaching 70+AC to mid 60's for example would be probably a great move. Forcing me to waste time re-doing my gear to achieve the EXACT same end while doing nothing to mitigate the crazy power creep of monk dips is pointless.


Disclaimer: I have no PC's w/ monk levels.

Edit: As I think about it, powerful grenades were EXACTLY what we needed to try and counter obscene AC & Save meta. Now RIP that option.
Last edited by Anomandaris on Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:05 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:37 pm

most of the gear losing stats is all used by monks, so is this really just one more monk nerf ?????? if you want to stop power creep with dips simply disable monk benefits from going active until you hit level 5 or 6, that alone would stop 99% of dipping
Last edited by Ebonstar on Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by DM Rex » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:30 pm

It is understandable that anytime numbers go down, someone will be affected.
The difficulty here is. I read this as "things have changed, no free rebuilds were given, no justification was given, and I don't like it".

Do you have anything else to offer as feedback?

Xerah
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Xerah » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:58 pm

Justification:

It is extremely easy to play classes that need gear with DEX and WIS (and CON to a lesser degree). This is targeted to make it harder to max those stats. I don't know why you would target +12 with either of those stats (unless you're a caster) since you can easily get +stats with [stacking] animal spells.

It is extremely easy to gear for discipline, even in non-STR classes. This was done to target that forcing people to make harder decisions if they wish to defend against this.

Grenades were a 22d6 (77) + 9d6 (32) splash that needed a ranged tough attack which DEX classes could easily do. Now they are 16d6 (56) + 5d6 (18) splash. (Assuming 24 rogue levels for heavy grenade uses).

While you may personally enjoy being unhittable/uncritable, that is not the desired state of things and these are the sort of minor changes that we wish to do to change things. I can understand it's unfortunate that you no longer get as high stats for free, but this game is in a constant state of development and changes like this are necessary.
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Archnon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:46 am

I can respect xerahs argument here but as far as the monk items go, unless they are given additional rune slots, they are now inferior to just a dweomer item where you can get two +1 stats and a slew of skills.

*Edit*

Upon further consideration inre. Monk changes. I really think the robe and gloves need reverted. The gloves because unarmed is already giving up 1-2 item slots to go unarmed. The robes because it targets pure monks. Ranger monk combos will prefer rangers runic vestments anyways.
Last edited by Archnon on Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Xerah » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:55 am

Aspect beads are going to have the -1AC removed, as a note.

So, a 3 stat item that can take a greater rune is already a successful 5%. If you wanted to hard 5% then masterwork rune it, that's still a very powerful item that saves you a few steps.
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Ebonstar » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:57 am

and this was done to the same items that were made harder to add runes too already, and it isnt just one monk item, its all monk items getting reduced

did mage items that grant a +2 bonus stat get changed to +1? or fighter or cleric?

I understand evolving the game, but this is the third major change since the monk update got its overhaul and it has come out of left field when so many other things have been noted as needed work and changes

oh and i dont have a pure monk anymore, im just noting this as one who had a 30 monk when all the other changes went in


so the beads keep the +4 vs chaos?
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Garvik » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:58 am

The need for changing item stats to balance things is understandable. However, as has been stated in the OP: Getting a final set of endgame gear made is often a considerable and pricey effort. Would an advance warning on planned changes like that hurt? No one like waking up, taking a look at the forums just to find out that they have to sink hundreds of thousands of gold into remaking gear that worked perfectly fine yesterday.

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Archnon
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Archnon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:27 am

Archnon wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:46 am
I can respect xerahs argument here but as far as the monk items go, unless they are given additional rune slots, they are now inferior to just a dweomer item where you can get two +1 stats and a slew of skills.

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Archnon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:36 am

I'm going to move my edit to its own post here:

Upon further consideration inre. Monk changes. I really think the robe and gloves need reverted.

First, the gloves. Unarmed is already giving up 1-2 item slots to go unarmed. The bonus damage is really negated by lots of other bonus damage sources for non-unarmed, most notably, bane of enemies, imbues from various classes, and divine might. Using gloves+weapon you can get significantly higher stats an on-par AC thanks to shields/parry. This is a big hit to unarmed monks, which were already rare.

The robes should be reverted for two reasons. First, it mostly targets pure monks. Secondly, there is lots of other gear that offers a +2 stat. Ranger monk combos will prefer rangers runic vestments anyways because, well they actually deserve a nerf. But lets also talk about murder's rainment, penumbral vestment, arch-priests duty, grand-magi's robes, inception of nightmares, jesters jubliant attire, padded vestment of the holy squire, armor of immolation, and probably others. That is just the tailoring list. These robes were on par with items offered to other classes as a bonus end of game item, as were the gloves.

Please reconsider.

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:26 am

The nerf to the items had to happen. Last time the items' 'value' for rune crafting was nerfed, I already had this itching feeling that the next time monk dips will be nerfed it will be through items again. For me it's a bit sad because I like weird barely-functional monk builds, not just the cookie cutter ones. I dont see how any str based monk build is possible to do anymore, and it's kinda sad but if that's what needs to happen to chill down the powerful dex based combinations than it's worth it for the sake of peace.
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Anomandaris
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Anomandaris » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:31 am

Again, I'm saying this as someone with NO monk dip playing a rogue...
Xerah wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:58 pm
Justification:

It is extremely easy to play classes that need gear with DEX and WIS (and CON to a lesser degree). This is targeted to make it harder to max those stats. I don't know why you would target +12 with either of those stats (unless you're a caster) since you can easily get +stats with [stacking] animal spells.

It is extremely easy to gear for discipline, even in non-STR classes. This was done to target that forcing people to make harder decisions if they wish to defend against this.

Grenades were a 22d6 (77) + 9d6 (32) splash that needed a ranged tough attack which DEX classes could easily do. Now they are 16d6 (56) + 5d6 (18) splash. (Assuming 24 rogue levels for heavy grenade uses).

While you may personally enjoy being unhittable/uncritable, that is not the desired state of things and these are the sort of minor changes that we wish to do to change things. I can understand it's unfortunate that you no longer get as high stats for free, but this game is in a constant state of development and changes like this are necessary.
I get exactly what you were trying to do, and the goal is important and necessary. I used to have a dex spellmonk and I know what you did would make gearing it to max AC, AB & HP a pain which is GREAT in a lot of ways. But this is kind of my whole point. You say these changes are targeting PC's that gear dex, wis & con. Me and a lot of other players don't. I have no monk levels. Changes like this affect more people that aren't power building w/ monk dips and just get nerfed or inconvenienced despite being well in the mid-range of the current meta. And it's fairly standard for anyone to max their primary stat via gear to A) Be unspellable on that stat and B) have a lower windup time for PvP. I guarantee you a majority of the people you ask that you'd consider "proficient builders" will say max your primary stat be it str or dex via gear (though this changes if you've got 4 necessary ability scores to shoot for +12 on). That's why making the change in a way that doesn't have sweeping impact on peripheral builds, but focused impact on the actual source of serious imbalance is better. Scaling cap to wis AC bonus on monk lvls. Easy... done. Problem solved (at least in a big way) and a lot more meaningfully than with this gear change.

Discipline changes, as stated, seem far more sensible and moderate. A slight-1,2,3 to a state across the board is a nice adjustment. Discipline meta is crazy as is saves and AC to the point KD was worthless. I think KD is a little OP now that disc gearing is harder, the immunity to CD reduced and there's a slow effect, but different convo.

Grenades were never a problem. Where did this come from? When considering "economy of action" for a rogue with that many levels you're 74 dmg grenade is not worth the whole 1 round of attacks that can easily do hundreds of damage. Sure it's still a "decent" opening at range but you've relegated grenades to their role as slow or stun tools, not dmg tools. It's roughly equivalent to 1 sneak attack (assuming no crit or crippling strike). The dmg previously made them viable vectors for damage delivery in lieu of the alternatives. Grenadier builds were niche as were people pushing that high into rogue because most wanted or needed to cross class heavily in Fighter/SD/Assassin/Monk (all of which DON'T get stacking benefits for grenades as you're aware). I'm sorry I just don't see this being very well thought out as far as the implications as far as how it changes grenade usage and their viability nor the necessity for it. Unless the goal is literally to make them only utility tools and not viable forms of combat dmg. Given how high saves and AC are, this was a very nice tool that a FEW PC's had access to and used occasionally to effect. It's no longer viable in that regard.

I walk around with AC at about the mid 50's because I'm not a monk dip. I'm nowhere near unhittable or uncrittable. I get whooped by these Monk/Ranger or Spellmonk or insert monk dip builds because I'm not a monk dip. And I do think e-dodge with AC pushing high 60's and 70's is insane. This didn't do much to change that. And neither did giving epic dodge to monks.

My stats are going to be the same at the end of the day. I just need to waste a bunch of time to remake a Svirf hammer and put dex on it instead of a presently fairly worthless D4 elemental dmg. So the end result is no substantive change just a waste of time and gold. You're not making PC's unable to hit the +12 dex w/ gear, it just messes up peoples' gear at present. And I understand it's in a constant state of development/change, that doesn't mean that there can't be consideration towards people who spend a TON of time and IC resources to acquire the gear that with a snap of the finger get's changed. Would it kill server balance to grandfather in all the current boots out there? Nope. It'd be a very nice thing to do for people who maybe spent a TON of time and $$$ trying to 5% them though.
DM Rex wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:30 pm
It is understandable that anytime numbers go down, someone will be affected.
The difficulty here is. I read this as "things have changed, no free rebuilds were given, no justification was given, and I don't like it".

Do you have anything else to offer as feedback?
I mean the post was a solid page long and there were comments in there about how to adjust some of these things more subtly and/or in a less frustrating way. A rebuild is one thing, but perhaps grandfathering (lots of precedent here). Or helping people out in another way that doesn't result in me spending the next week re-gearing a PC that has been geared for 12+ months already. The other thing to state, again, is that my PC will end up in the exact same spot. I will still have +12 to my primary stat, dex. There is literally no meaningful adjustment to my mechanical power. I'm playing a 19Rogue/6 Fighte/5SD. No monk levels here so I'm not the "actual" target of this change (see Xerah's comment about triple ability score stacking) but I along with other's like me a certainly affected.

It's a game, we're here to have fun. This isn't a competitive professional E-sports arena with cash prizes. It'd be nice to know that as changes are made they're made with the thinking that it can be frustrating to ppl it affects. The team could have solved the actual power creep here with a slight adjustment to how monk dips are factored rather than nerfing an item used by a lot of other builds that aren't presently overpowered.

So yah while I think I did add in some practical options to do this "differently" I guess I could re-iterate exactly what you said and say yah, that's exactly the issue at the core. What's it cost to let someone who's poured 100's or in some cases 1000's of hours into a narrative and character the ability to adjust to mechanical changes?


TLDR: Monk dips on 3 abili score builds are OP. Solution is nerf wis & dex gear. Result is nerf everyone, even those not using these builds. Grenades were never OP and now don't make sense as the use of a round for anyone high enough to previously make good use of them. Nerf the dip instead and solve the problem without messing up other people's gear (pure monks, normal rogues etc).

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Xerah » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:00 am

Grandfathering is one of the absolute worst things that can happen. It is extremely bad and should 100% be avoided at all costs. These were changes that many devs (and players for that matter) mentioned were coming on the forums and discord; it did not come out of left field.

You don't have to have max stats for numerous things; that used to be a luxury and now it is treated as a right/expectation. These changed happened because dex and wis were easy to gear. Making a decision to remove X (in your case, 1d4 damage) for a stat, is the exact thing I'm talking about that make this a choice (also, you don't have to do this).

These were issues that had to be dealt with and your idea that it is just targeted at X specific things isn't correct. At any rate, I've made the reasons pretty clear and you disagree, which is fine but that's how the team feels.
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Arigard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:20 am

If grenade spam was a problem and potentially seen as bad form (especially acid bombs, which I am assuming here), why not simply add a cool-down to grenades, doesn't that solve the problem cleanly? There are plenty of mechanics in game that have a cool-down already.
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by mjones3 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:25 am

Dex went from being able to be +10 on 4 pieces of gear to +7. Drink 2 dex potions and the issue is solved. Wisdom took a -3 bump as well, a single potion fixes the issue usually.

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Zaphiel » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:00 am

I think people have no idea about kiting potential of acid bombs.
Edited for grammar to make it worse, probably.

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Might-N-Magic » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:19 am

Why in the world would I bother with my grenades now when gonne shots do twice as much now?

I half-heartedly joke to a friend every update "Let's see how they've nerfed me this time." Why? Because just about every other update DOES nerf my character. I've repeatedly lost AC. Lost hips. Lost AB. Lost items. Lost grenades (had their saves swapped from useful to useless). Lost grenades (damage). On and on and on and on.

Meanwhile I've watched wizards and blackguards and whatnot solo everything in the server they like. Nope. Grenades are the problem. Yes. Oh and 39 ab was too much for you, down to 37.

Do I have to play a wizard to be left alone? Should I DM a development staff member and ask them what they main just for some sort of peace of mind I won't be bothered by "up"dates?

Your game is too volatile. You need to stop listening to idiots on discord or whiny posts by someone who lost a pvp fight because they hit recommended every level up. Jj may have never done much with the game, but at least I never felt like I was wasting my time playing a character longer than 3 months with it.

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Anomandaris » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:44 am

Zaphiel wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:00 am
I think people have no idea about kiting potential of acid bombs.
Yah because it doesn't happen often, grenades weren't that popular. And freedom is universally available to almost every PC. But the slow is certainly nice. Now that's about all the grenade will be used for. For some reason they made it to a nerf list, no clue how or why. It makes no sense whatsoever. Of all the complaining about OP stuff, grenades barely even rates a mention. There's at least ten things I would think to balance before grenades. I don't even use them often and I have 19 rogue lvls. I have used em a few times and was hoping to incorporate them more into game play. Not anymore...

Everything else makes at least some sense even if I'm annoyed about it. The grenades are just weird. Stack scaling with other classes then or the # of ppl who will be able to get them to usable DC/Dmg range, which is already meh, is miniscule. Really odd move. The team must just hate grenades.

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Archon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:28 am

I get where people in this thread are coming from. I am at the moment disinclined to invest anything much to any character, or play my main in fear of what changes next -- even my alt was hit by a recent skill change of freshly implemented leadership when I decided to test the skill. I shouldn't have tested it.

My current main was made when some feats I took, or did not take, worked differently, and my choices during the time I took those feats invalidate the character presently. The same reason invalidates my skill choices, class combination choices. I went deep rogue to be able to use grenades very well, while there wasn't many occasions I had an opportunity to use them. Character is not a monk dip, and gear changes didn't affect it; class choices originally meant I could not use penumbral vestment, ranger tunic, etc, and gear that is competing with monk item like level boosts. What I noticed recently though in PGCC is, that with ranger runic tunic you can add up to three stats by using a runic ability and then masterly runing it. Its setup reminds me of the prior ease of statting monk items.

There's items that I feel should be looked at, and this alongside Inception of Nightmares and various PRC tied items are on that list due significant boosts they get compared to more more "vanilla" options. This does not tie to discipline removal on current update per se which was all okay and needed, but strangely powerful pieces of gear that float around. Some I have hard time to believe were add in the first place.


In short. I dread to look at the update thread. I think the changes that were made are good and necessary, but it's been demotivating to conclude the character I made functions very differently now than it did months ago, and even the race I play got a buff/more variety in form of an extra gift to custom it a bit more since I clicked the create character button. What I sincerely hope is an automated relevel option offered across the board when things settle down with the upcoming intimidate and sleight of hand implementations etc. So much has changed, changes, or will be changed, that I feel players in general would be more at ease knowing their characters will be good for something after all the shifts in meta, aside of typing -delete_character twice.

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by the grim yeeter » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:16 am

Snip

The last wave of changes was (almost) 100% necessary and good. However, 100% of that last wave was also there to fix things that shouldn't have been there, and would not have been implemented if we had proper oversight in the first place.
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Subtext » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:38 am

Regarding the nerfing of a few items...I am personally actually not that bothered, though I can understand why those who have invested the time and money into hard 5% gear are frustrated when they see their toy and meticulously planned build getting all jumbled up.

I am still not overall the biggest fan of the goal of nerfing dex builds in the way it is done when - as far as I can see - the overall issue lies more with strength builds not being overly attractive these days and it might feel nicer to see them buffed instead to invite people to invest more in those classes.

I also think that it would likely make for a better impression to pool these balance updates together because getting hit every day with a different kind of nerf bat feels a lot different than having a whole big "rebalancing" package put together where people can have a look at the grand picture. But that's more from the overall tone I get, I personally didn't care enough about my gear to actually get into a screeching mood ;)

That being said.

I absolutely loathe the nerf to grenades. With the damage output they could generate they were strong...but not in the field where you couldn't apply more damage otherwise. We did a little bit of lazy testing on PGCC and it was one way to whittle down a conlock. It felt like something nasty with a big impact that could be sprung at someone anytime, leaving exactly that kind of bag of tricks feeling that goes with a rogue.
There's a lot of situations where grenades simply can't be reasonably applied either, certainly not in PvP...but also often enough not really in PvE unless you play a ranged character. And in that case, you would likely already outdamage a grenade with your regular ammunition.
Yes, I understand the kiting potential of grenades (attacking without stopping) but their use is highly situational and if it can be used to actually beat down one of the strongest builds in the game, why not?
Plus, it was a good example of where investing into a class would prove to be more beneficial, something decidedly not promoting the usual dipping of a few handpicked classes.

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Gouge Away » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:03 am

Grenades also have a crafting and or money investment and stacks take up slots and add weight to your inventory on what is usually a low strength character. You can't spam acid bombs endlessly and carrying a bunch around takes preparation. They were a good item for alchemists to sell to rogues but I think that market is about to dry up.

I dunno, I think the nerf is too drastic too, they were powerful but didn't feel overpowered.

Halibutthead
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Halibutthead » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:23 pm

this is the reason why you have to play powerbuilds. regular rogues got hit a good deal harder than the rest of the dexxers, which only serves to widen that gap.

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Ork
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Ork » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:27 pm

Regular rogues are still great. I'm sitting here scratching my head when regular rogues get: near-infinite haste, high AC, +2 ENCHANT, +2 AB out of stealth, +50% movement speed in stealth, trap improvement, grenades, epic dodge, and stealth. What are we griping about?

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by JubJub » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:46 pm

Something like the monk's robes weren't really all that powerful to start with, especially when you look at something like the second skin and honestly
Damage Immunity: Slashing 5%
Enhancement Bonus: Constitution +3
Enhancement Bonus: Strength +3
Enhancement Bonus: Dexterity +3
With just a 40 umd requirement.

I always felt Disciplne wasn't needed as much once you couldn't spam KD someone to death. The server always seems too occupied with trying to tinker and what happens is now people will all move to something else then more tinkering because now this weapon or this build or stat is too common or powerful now. Then this change was too much and now have to fix this and that. It gets where you don't want to do anything since you just know another tinkering will happen.

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