Subdual and Money

[Ninjimmy]

This is probably touching on a suggestion but it's something that's occurred to me after a couple different threads.

How do we give death a narrative weight when things like casually decapitating a pickpocket for 100*level gold is a valid tactic and roadside muggings end up with fugue visits and an inconvenience of 5 minutes? Because I'd rather it WAS a more significant thing but the suspension of narrative sense to pretend the guy who just got murdered won't be back later with his mates runs a little dry after the 19th resurrection you've seen that month.

I think it's down to subdual not seeing much use where, as a narrative tool, it generally makes more sense. Kicking the ever loving crap out of someone is usually a more appropriate action VS just killing them so I'm not sure why I don't see it as much.

But for the sake of crime RP, if Subdual allowed you to take money off someone without killing them, would people a) as thieves, be more willing to stick their neck out because you can get a narrative out of the story with reasonable repercussions/rep building if your mugging IS successful and b) as victims, willing to just punch someone a bunch and take your wallet off their unconscious body or believe you've "taught the thief a lesson" rather than take the head and smear it over every noticeboard in the land.

Personal take, I like petty crime because I prefer conflict where the stakes aren't end of the world or fight to the death (at least not from the jump) and while the servers doing a lot to facilitate being a criminal who isn't in league with the abyss, it's still faced with the problem of one side feeling aggrieved at being hit by crime and the other feeling they have to cheese or face character ending consequences for it.

A middle ground would be nice.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Killing people for theft is very normal even on servers with harsher death penalties. This isn't an Arelith problem due to low penalties on the server, it's a video game mindset where theft is one of the few permanent things people can do to another person without their consent.

I like the idea of dropping gold on subdual though.

[Skibbles]

This thread may become too close to the PP thread so I'll focus on subdual itself.

What if subdual just becomes default (after some expansion), and murder becomes a conscious choice after the fact (or toggleable in reverse)? Essentially adding just one more bash required for total kill.

Subdual can be expanded to recover stolen goods, take prisoners, carry people maybe, and things like that. It would be cool to have a -faint command, for RP purposes, that puts your character into the subdued state.

I think I'd just like to see more to it in general.

It might humanize players a little more. I don't pvp that much and I completely forget about subdual 100% of the time, but I admit I've also never killed a PP before (but I have turned one to stone.)

[garrbear758]

While Forgotten Realms / Arelith != medieval europe, it is heavily influenced by it. Penalties for theft at the time (and in some places even today, unfortunately) included extremes such as cutting off hands or death. Considering we can't mechanically cut your hands off, that leaves death. You can't put modern sensibilities on societies where duels to the death were a common way to settle minor disputes. Hell, even all the way in the late 1700s the US president (Andrew Jackson) was famous for the number of duels he fought, some of which were for things as minor as being insulted. If killing someone for an insult is acceptable, then imagine how people felt about theft.

With that said, I'd be totally on board with expanding subdual. As far as death weight, that comes down to being a team player and RPing well.

[MRFTW]

I don't have an opinion to voice regarding death, but dropping gold on subdual is a great idea.

[Ninjimmy]

While Forgotten Realms / Arelith != medieval europe, it is heavily influenced by it. Penalties for theft at the time (and in some places even today, unfortunately) included extremes such as cutting off hands or death. Considering we can't mechanically cut your hands off, that leaves death. You can't put modern sensibilities on societies where duels to the death were a common way to settle minor disputes. Hell, even all the way in the late 1700s the US president (Andrew Jackson) was famous for the number of duels he fought, some of which were for things as minor as being insulted. If killing someone for an insult is acceptable, then imagine how people felt about theft.

With that said, I'd be totally on board with expanding subdual. As far as death weight, that comes down to being a team player and RPing well.

Killing people for theft is very normal even on servers with harsher death penalties. This isn't an Arelith problem due to low penalties on the server, it's a video game mindset where theft is one of the few permanent things people can do to another person without their consent.

I like the idea of dropping gold on subdual though.

To be fair, I DO see why killing is done both from an RP and uhhh "pride" point of view so agree with both your points, but I think we can all agree that subdual gives a slightly better narrative experience for people. If nothing else because you can talk about what happened and RP from it.

[Zavandar]

I've said before that subdual should make your gold lootable and give you a -50 bluff/perform debuff. Maybe even make that courier stuff lootable (idk how it works, never killed someone with a courier writ).

[Party in the forest at midnight]

This thread may become too close to the PP thread so I'll focus on subdual itself.

What if subdual just becomes default (after some expansion), and murder becomes a conscious choice after the fact (or toggleable in reverse)? Essentially adding just one more bash required for total kill.

Subdual can be expanded to recover stolen goods, take prisoners, carry people maybe, and things like that. It would be cool to have a -faint command, for RP purposes, that puts your character into the subdued state.

I think I'd just like to see more to it in general.

It might humanize players a little more. I don't pvp that much and I completely forget about subdual 100% of the time, but I admit I've also never killed a PP before (but I have turned one to stone.)

Quoting this because I like this post and I don't want it to get buried.

[garrbear758]

I've said before that subdual should make your gold lootable and give you a -50 bluff/perform debuff. Maybe even make that courier stuff lootable (idk how it works, never killed someone with a courier writ).

I do like both of these ideas. A coup de grace option would be nice too, and then make subdual the default for pvp. It'd make death a little more meaningful by virtue of it being a conscious choice after pvp.

[Zavandar]

I am okay with subdual being the default option and killing someone requiring that you toggle it on. I don't think it needs much more changed than that as far as living or dying goes. I'm sure we will see accidental subduals go up, but oh well.

[Red_Wharf]

Maybe even make that courier stuff lootable (idk how it works, never killed someone with a courier writ).

You get some money if you pick up a corpse from someone carrying a package. 500 if I recall correctly.

[DangerDolphin]

I actually had a list with several of those things on to fix subdual, though I didn't think of the gold dropping part.

- Prevent use of Portal Lens and Attunement potion for 10 minutes after being subdued
- Subdual debuffs Bluff/Perform by 60
- Subdual turned on by default
- Yoink is disabled while subdued
- Switching to another mode (subdual/lethal) announces it in [Talk]
- Hostiling someone specific sends your subdual mode to them
- Players can use a -forgive command to remove penalties and lens restrictions on the person they have subdued

[Zavandar]

I actually had a list with several of those things on to fix subdual, though I didn't think of the gold dropping part.

- Prevent use of Portal Lens and Attunement potion for 10 minutes after being subdued
- Subdual debuffs Bluff/Perform by 60
- Subdual turned on by default
- Yoink is disabled while subdued
- Switching to another mode (subdual/lethal) announces it in [Talk]
- Hostiling someone specific sends your subdual mode to them
- Players can use a -forgive command to remove penalties and lens restrictions on the person they have subdued

I'm cool with most of these except it being announced and hostiling someone specific sets you to subdue them. I don't think there should be an IC tell for how you're maybe going to fight someone (nor do I want players to be inclined to respond in certain ways to that), and I think just having the overall toggle (as it currently is) is fine. Switching which is default is cool by me.

I think preventing lenses and the forgive options are good, and obviously am on board with bluff/perform debuffs

[DangerDolphin]

The subdual mode announcement stuff is mainly to combat misunderstandings and the fact that most players lack social skills. I see a lot of incidents happening like "I will start a bar brawl with this guy for saying my hair looked funny" and someone responding "Oh my god this guy is trying to murder me, he must be an assassin"

One of the big PvP issues we have is the lack of courtesy. People are bad losers and even worse winners, and seeing that your opponent intends to RP with you at least a little before killing you, or perhaps not kill you at all, is a step towards a mutual understanding that the other player isn't out to try and forcefully end your story with killbash.

[Archnon]

I actually had a list with several of those things on to fix subdual, though I didn't think of the gold dropping part.

- Prevent use of Portal Lens and Attunement potion for 10 minutes after being subdued
- Subdual debuffs Bluff/Perform by 60
- Subdual turned on by default
- Yoink is disabled while subdued
- Switching to another mode (subdual/lethal) announces it in [Talk]
- Hostiling someone specific sends your subdual mode to them
- Players can use a -forgive command to remove penalties and lens restrictions on the person they have subdued

I love it but the bluff/perform might be a bit steep, and I am saying that having just raged about the insane advantage that bluff and perform currently have. I would cut that in half.

Otherwise, I have to echo Zavandar and others. I do wish subdual was the default setting. Honestly, its not really about the mechanics of needing to type a phrase. It is about culture. Doing little things like saying, "If you want to kill someone dead, we are gonna make you type this phrase in chat every time you log on" really sends a strong signal about server culture and the seriousness of death to new and old players alike. I think that would be a huge change in and of itself.

[Edens_Fall]

My experience is generally subdual is avoided in group battles as people more often then not just get up and run or rejoin the fight. 1v1 or with city PC guards seems to be its primary area of use. That of trying to take prisoners.

The above ideas for loot and debuff to perform are awesome I think.

[Zavandar]

The subdual mode announcement stuff is mainly to combat misunderstandings and the fact that most players lack social skills. I see a lot of incidents happening like "I will start a bar brawl with this guy for saying my hair looked funny" and someone responding "Oh my god this guy is trying to murder me, he must be an assassin"

One of the big PvP issues we have is the lack of courtesy. People are bad losers and even worse winners, and seeing that your opponent intends to RP with you at least a little before killing you, or perhaps not kill you at all, is a step towards a mutual understanding that the other player isn't out to try and forcefully end your story with killbash.

I understand the motivations behind this suggestion and kind of figured that's where you were coming from, but in this instance I think ambiguity is better. Moreover, I think appropriately utilizing ! is enough courtesy (namely, not just throwing it up a half second before attacking). Encouraging people to RP their intentions appropriately is also good. Even in your suggestion, an assassin might try to carry out a hit under the guise of a brawl. Not saying this happens often as it is, but I'd rather not shut down more nuanced options.

Regarding the steep bluff/perform debuff, I suggest it because the alternative for identifying someone is just killing them. That would still remain the only surefire way for it to work, but with a debuff, people may be just a little less inclined to kill people with "" around their name.

Quick edit: I think it would also be cool if being subdualed uncovered you.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

While Forgotten Realms / Arelith != medieval europe, it is heavily influenced by it. Penalties for theft at the time (and in some places even today, unfortunately) included extremes such as cutting off hands or death. Considering we can't mechanically cut your hands off, that leaves death. You can't put modern sensibilities on societies where duels to the death were a common way to settle minor disputes. Hell, even all the way in the late 1700s the US president (Andrew Jackson) was famous for the number of duels he fought, some of which were for things as minor as being insulted. If killing someone for an insult is acceptable, then imagine how people felt about theft.

With that said, I'd be totally on board with expanding subdual. As far as death weight, that comes down to being a team player and RPing well.

Tyr has strict laws about justice being fair and well-measured. A society that looks to Tyr's law will not randomly murder thieves. Instead, the thief will be apprehended and judged for why they stole, how they stole and how much. Furthermore, they will be judged by a separate person than the one who apprehended the criminal.

Tyr's law is further tempered by Ilmater's mercy, and while Tyr seeks to ensure kings and paupers are judged alike - he will be more lenient for someone stealing enough money to buy food or steal food directly. If one did so - they will be given forced labour in fair conditions in exchange for food, and encouraged to join the Triad's faith as a lay servant or monk in exchange for liberation from their poverty.

And while Torm is the most zealous, even he will look up to Tyr and Ilmater, and let justice be kind, merciful and fair.

Even Helm, who lacks Ilmater's mercy as something so very close, will likely hand off criminals to Tyr to resolve after performing his duty as a guardsman or watchman.

The only place you get violence on par of Earth are those that do not strive for Triadic or Helmite ideals - Luskan, a den of pirates, Mintarm, a den of privateers; and places that are ruled by banite ideology or at least lawful evil.

That's just a small subsection of the gods humanity reveres. The rest are NG/CG which, if you seek to be a good worshipper of - you will adhere to their dogma. And their dogma includes a respect for life and mercy almost always directly or indirectly.


And this is just looking at humanity.

For halflings, non-violent crime as long as it does not make the victim suffer for food (and thus violate Yondallan principles) is not an issue, and many of their legends concern their gods who stole from others - including Brandobaris who robbed Myrkul himself!

For elves, Erevan is a beloved god. And what does Erevan's clergy do? They engage in non-violent theft to ensure people don't get pompous and stuffy. Erevanites will avoid stealing things that would harm the victim (heirlooms, money to buy food, pay the landlord, gifts of sentimental values).


Forgotten Realms is honestly, as long as you stay away from places like the Moonsea's coasts, Amn, Calimshan and stick to Silverymoon/Waterdeep and the like is probably more progressive than most places on Earth when it comes to legal procedures.

And Amn's only issue is how freely bribes flow.

[The GrumpyCat]

So I am genuinly loving some of these ideas, and pretty much support the base concept. I agree that subdual should probably be the default option, and death more of an active decision. I like most of the debuff ideas too - though I'd perhaps make the 'uncover/loss of perform/bluff' a command that can be used on someone?
Uncovering at least seems more like something you -do- to a none resistant person, rather than that is automatically the case.

The only small word of caution I'll put in about the initial suggestion is that this does make pvping someone for gold more feasable and desirable and will probably lead to an uptick in that. Now again I don't think that this is a bad thing - it still has it's problems, its issues, but now just comes with more rp, and encourages rp... so over all I do still support it. But this is something to consider.

Finally - no matter what the Subdual system does need to still have the -relent command, so that players still have an easy 'out' from a situation they may feel uncomfortable in, and to protect them from greifers.

[Bunnysmack]

Not sure if this is feasible or not, but it might be worth adding in a toggle command wherein the subdualed person can agree to being set to auto-follow someone that lasso's them. Totally a voluntary state, of course, but people who want to RP being tied up and dragged to another location by their attacker can then more easily do that (perhaps with the visual used for lassoing monsters).

I know this is one of the considerations I've seen come into the death vs. subdual analysis, wherein even if the target ooc consents to capture RP (consent which is always asked in advance, of course), the logistics of grabbing a body and raising it elsewhere are far easier to pull off compared to dealing with the target stuck to the ground for several minutes after the fight (during which, backup PCs for the victim can often arrive, depending on the situation).

[Duchess Says]

Even if death by execution or some other terrible fate would be the eventual result of subdual and capture I think the story is always better served by some "What are we going to do with you?" RP instead of immediate vigilante justice.

[RedGiant]

I love the idea of default subdual.

But what if we even pushed it one step further? What if, with a more consequential and universal subdual system, we made PvP death require mutual consent? I.e., something that must be toggled "on" by both parties.

We've had many threads about death and its consequences, and I don't want to rehash them here, but it suffices to say, in effect this is the system we already have. No one dies permanantly unless they decide to. As imperfect as this idea may first sound, I think it is infinitely preferable to the ridiculous discontinuity that abounds now.

You want death to be more consequential? Make it more rare. You want the Cordor Courthouse to get used? Make it so that it actually means something to be a murderer again.

PvP continues.
Theft continues.
Death becomes more meaningful.
DMs get 150% less email traffic about poorly RPed murder hobos.
Everybody wins.

...except the murder hobos.

[Zavandar]

I love the idea of default subdual.

But what if we even pushed it one step further? What if, with a more consequential and universal subdual system, we made PvP death require mutual consent? I.e., something that must be toggled "on" by both parties.

here we go

no.

[Nitro]

Yeah how about we don't do that.

[Ninjimmy]

While I am pushing for less overall death, I gotta admit that I think opt-in death is a flawed idea.