ChatGPT & Roleplay

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magistrasa
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ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by magistrasa » Tue Jul 04, 2023 1:26 pm

I'm starting this thread to get the community thinking and talking about what role they believe ChatGPT or any other AI text generators can or should occupy within roleplay, how they have seen it used in-game, and how they may have used it themselves. AI's rapid assimilation as a tool of creative expression means this kind of conversation was going to be inevitable - in fact, it's already a subject of heated debate in various discord channels, which never goes anywhere because discord is an inferior venue for really any kind of meaningful conversation. If anything, this thread is surprisingly late to the party.

Although I understand how it works and seen examples of its use, I've never used ChatGPT myself. Not necessarily out of some technophobic resentment, but because I don't experience much difficulty in expressing my thoughts and ideas, so it simply has no appeal to me. I find the writing process to be cathartic and engaging, but I understand that for a lot of people it can instead feel stressful and frustrating. These people I sympathize with, and wouldn't look down on for requesting help from a well-spoken robot. But an argument I've seen for legitimate ChatGPT usage that I consider genuinely concerning is that of the non-native English speakers who use the program to generate their speeches or IC texts top-to-bottom, with the excuse being that they don't know English well enough to perform the task themselves. I find that perspective concerning because I'm a non-native English speaker - and the way I got to be so confident and comfortable with my writing in the first place is by attempting to read and write at a higher level than I was actually capable of pulling off skillfully. ChatGPT doesn't help you write better if it's doing all the writing for you. I would much rather read through a passage of text riddled with grammatical errors but still fundamentally your ideas than to read through a robot's empty attempts at pretending to be a person.

And that's something that less-skilled writers may not realize about ChatGPT: Anyone who's actually paying attention to your writing will recognize an AI's voice within it. I've already seen ChatGPT used on the server on multiple occasions. Some instances were subtle applications which I only learned about after the fact, while in a few other instances I recognized the AI immediately. I'll be vague with my example as I don't want to call anyone out, but in one circumstance, there was a speech being delivered about a subject that my character felt very passionately about. The speaker very obviously copied and pasted somewhere around five paragraphs of text ostensibly related to that subject - the subject was named and referenced and the words chosen within the speech all fit the general "vibe" of the subject - but for all the words being spat out at me, at no point was anything actually said. No meaningful statements or claims were ever staked. I read five paragraphs of something I intended for my character to be passionate about, and found it absent of any actual message. This incident was extremely upsetting to me, to the point where I've since shelved that character. I wondered to myself what the point would be of pursuing a narrative that everyone around me was content to treat as little more than an aesthetic filter for an AI word salad. What meaningful roleplay can come out of interacting with people who treat their character as a stand-in to parrot the fabricated ideas of a robot? And what made that incident all the more upsetting is that the speaker in question spoke English as a second language. I know how alienating it feels to think you're just incapable of measuring up to the people around you, and I can imagine they only got the courage to put themselves on that stage because ChatGPT gave them all the correct capitalization and pretty punctuation to make them think they could pass as "one of us." But in the process they forgot that the point of roleplay isn't to impress your peers with how you good word the thing stuff. It's about being yourself. Or, y'know. Being yourself being someone else.

Roleplay is fun because it's a character exploration. It's an opportunity to live another life, see the world through someone else's eyes, and engage with others within the boundaries of that premise. How well can you really claim to be roleplaying if you outsource the opportunity to express your character and hand it instead to some AI program? Would it be any different from handing your keyboard to some random person sitting next to you at the computer? What do you really get out of the experience? And furthermore, what do I?

That said, there are some examples of ChatGPT usage on the server that I find much more interesting and worthwhile: Translation & Refinement. I expect it can be dangerously easy to slip up and become a walking, talking thesaurus with this method, but using ChatGPT to make slight tweaks and edits to a body of text you've already put together can help smooth out the edges of your work, trimming the fat and highlighting the message within. I've seen amateur poets go back and forth with the AI, inputting a rough draft to be translated into more poetic language, taking what they've been given and adjusting what comes out of it to better suit their own vision. In that sense, ChatGPT isn't creating your message, but serving as an editor to help you better express what was always fundamentally what you wanted to say.

I can also see its merit as an "idea generator" to help you find the direction you'd like to channel your creative energy towards. Maybe your wizard wants to write an essay about something within their realm of expertise, but you can't quite decide what to focus on. ChatGPT can be helpful in breaking through the writer's block by listing out some interesting topics for you to then elaborate upon. Again, it's an example of using it as a tool to help you find the right way to express yourself.

I feel like the difference between "good" and "bad" usage is in the intentionality of one's use: It's one thing to have something to say and use AI to help you refine the presentation of your message, and another matter entirely to simply let an algorithm decide what your message is. But you still have to understand that there's more to this art than good spelling and accurate syntax. ChatGPT might improve the presentation of your writing, but it isn't going to make you a better roleplayer, and it's probably not much help in making you a better storyteller. If you're using it because you think it can accomplish either of those goals, then you're simply in it for the wrong reasons.

This topic is interesting to me because it's essentially a new frontier, a new realm of possibilities in how it may affect the way we experience storytelling. I care very much about fostering an environment that encourages better roleplay, and I think examining the role that this new tool can play in our craft is a worthwhile discussion. I'm not interested in discussing the implications of AI's presence in artistic fields for broader society - at least, I'm not interested in discussing it here - so if you engage in this topic, please try to keep it focused on how you think AI interacts with Arelith and with roleplay in general, whether good or bad.

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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:04 pm

+1

I've used it to give me baselines and ideas. it's good for that. it's definitely not something to copy and paste from.


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Dr. B
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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Dr. B » Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:50 pm

It's a concern where RPR is involved, although I doubt it's very practical for most roleplaying scenarios due to its tendency to generate walls of text.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by DM Monkey » Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:58 pm

It's very noticeable.

Like any tool, it can be used well or used poorly. A good use might be to help you with writing a description for your character, helping to make your writing more concise or clear. It could help to generate ideas for interesting fixture descriptions or aid players who aren't able to write songs themselves when playing a bard character. The key to good use is likely to be consistency and a seamless integration of the ChatGPT outputs and your roleplay.

It would be weird to be a player who goes from "yeah lets kill dragon haha" to endless paragraphs of Ye Olde English prose, and weirder still to swap between them. That said, it could potentially help people to actually implement languages properly. Old English conventions seem to be difficult to understand, so asking ChatGPT to correct you might help!

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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Irongron » Tue Jul 04, 2023 3:32 pm

Time to add -autorp <Race> <Alignment> On/Off as a console command?


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Inordinate » Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:35 pm

DM Monkey wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:58 pm

It's very noticeable.

I've had secondhand embarrassment from seeing a player note using chatGPT to describe some in character situation, it's very obvious and very lazy.

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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Ork » Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:15 pm

The orc stood tall, his muscles rippling beneath his weathered armor. His eyes burned with a fierce determination as he faced his nemesis, a figure who had haunted his every step in the world of Forgotten Realms. The air crackled with tension as silence fell upon the battlefield, and the orc began to speak, his voice echoing with raw intensity.

"Nemesis, I stand before you today, not as a mere orc, but as a force that will shatter your every ambition, crush your every hope, and erase your existence from this realm. You thought you could toy with me, manipulate me, and extinguish my spirit. But know this: I am no puppet. I am a warrior driven by a purpose that will consume you."

The orc's voice boomed, carrying his words across the battlefield, striking fear into the hearts of all who heard it. His fists clenched tightly, his knuckles turning white with the sheer force of his conviction.

"I have endured countless trials, facing adversaries far greater than you, and emerged stronger each time. I have fought through the flames of adversity, my spirit forged in the crucible of pain and suffering. Every defeat I have suffered at your hands has become a stepping stone towards my ultimate triumph."

The orc's eyes narrowed, a flicker of rage piercing through his gaze. His words were laced with a burning wrath, promising a reckoning that would shake the very foundations of the realm.

"From this moment forward, I dedicate myself to your ruin. I will hunt you relentlessly, tracking you to the farthest corners of this land and beyond. Your name will become synonymous with dread, and tales of your demise will echo through the ages. I will become the instrument of your downfall, a harbinger of your destruction."

A mirthless smile played upon the orc's lips as he continued, his words dripping with a potent mix of defiance and vengeance.

"Know this, nemesis: I am not bound by fear. I have embraced the darkness within, harnessed it, and forged it into a weapon that will bring about your undoing. The depths of my rage know no bounds, and it is through this fury that I will lay waste to everything you hold dear."

The orc's voice rose to a crescendo, his proclamation reaching a fevered pitch. His words resonated with unwavering resolve, leaving no doubt that he was prepared to fulfill his oath.

"So, hear me now, nemesis of mine. The time for games is over. Your reign of terror ends here, beneath the weight of my unyielding wrath. Prepare yourself for a reckoning like no other, for in the end, it is I who shall stand triumphant, and you who shall be consigned to the annals of forgotten history!"

With those final words, the orc's monologue ended, the battlefield quaking with the weight of his declaration. The confrontation between the orc and his nemesis had escalated to a point of no return, and the destiny of their intertwined fates hung in the balance, awaiting the outcome of their inevitable clash.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Old Lies Die Harder » Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:46 pm

The AI forgot to mention his nemesis is Jake Mandrake, and that the whole conflict is over necromanceries done in past.

0/10, did not respect canon.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Spriggan Bride » Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:38 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:50 pm

It's a concern where RPR is involved, although I doubt it's very practical for most roleplaying scenarios due to its tendency to generate walls of text.

You can tell it to give you one line if you want. Or write a script, or lyric, a poem, etc. It's very customizable.

Thing is whatever you use it for, you generally can't take the text as-is. You have to make it your own. Whether that's as an RP aid or to cheat in school or to churn out pages and pages of boring copy for products (which yes I've been doing IRL with it)

I've used it on Arelith a little bit and I am pretty sure it's not apparent to a reader because I rework the text significantly. It's never for dialog but for descriptions or to get started writing a story a character will tell or a character's research paper IG or something like that. The method I'll generally use it to put in quick and rough text and have GPT clean up/expound on the that, then I go over it again to sound more "right" for the game. It's a few steps but it's still a lot faster than doing everything from scratch, and this way it's not creating all of my content but instead helping me write something readable in a quarter of the time it would normally take.

I do get the resistance or reservations people have and some of it is legit and some is just knee-jerk. It's a useful tool and I think if I was a PnP DM again I'd be using it extensively when preparing a game. One funny thing it can do is actually play DM for you and generate an adventure on the fly if you ask. It doesn't really work for a long session because you have turn limits but that is fun to play with and could be a good way to write script ahead of time for an encounter.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Alpine Fresh » Tue Jul 04, 2023 11:33 pm

Going to quote the forum signature of DM Starfish here:

Code: Select all

    "Roleplay is a two way street."

Some people might find ChatGPT to be a useful tool to help them communicate their thoughts better, whether in English as a second language or otherwise, and please respect that effort (some of us are lucky(?) enough to have been born in the fair land of Brittania)... but if people are using it to blatantly write long prose, just for them to fill the screen and be the big boss of the scene, just walk away and RP with someone who wants to put in the effort.

Ain't like Arelith is short of RP opportunities, if you go looking for them.

(Also, try to deal with it inRP. if someone is making big speeches that mean nothing, call it out inRP... I also do get it isn't always that simple.)

Simples... maybe?


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Hazard » Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:24 am

It's incredibly noticable. The tool just isn't there.
Seems very gimmicky at the moment. Not buying into the hype. Maybe one day, but atm it's just word salad.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Marsi » Wed Jul 05, 2023 2:15 am

Hazard wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:24 am

It's incredibly noticable. The tool just isn't there.
Seems very gimmicky at the moment. Not buying into the hype. Maybe one day, but atm it's just word salad.

It isn't this creative tool people make it out to be. It cannot be anything other than generic, the absolute average of whatever prose it has been trained on.

It can't even generate poetry that isn't simplistic nursery rhyme. It's remarkably limited. It's fairly obvious unless heavily reworked.

If you need to use AI to write for you, why write at all? Your content paste doesn't need to exist, and you are not entitled to the time and attention of others players, who would all prefer to be interacting with genuine human creativity.

I would much rather read ESL than GPT prose. I've had many memorable interactions with ESL or dyslexic players because creativity and imagination shines through even the most broken prose. But nothing can help a boring or incurious player. If you are a weak writer (bc if you think GPT is even remotely useful, that is what you probably are - sorry!), learn some respect for the medium and try to improve on your own. You can't hide mediocrity, certainly not with a mediocrity machine.

Not a kneejerk reaction, I'm a software engineer, and all the engineers I know have gotten pretty bored of it. Only people still banging on about it are former-crypto grifters, people who actually work in AI or on AI apps, or the pathologically clueless. It's hilarious to me that people think we can build a forever exponentially powerful god machine when the tech industry has become so dysfunctional that basic communication platforms can't seem to keep their lights on.

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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Waldo52 » Wed Jul 05, 2023 2:19 am

I've actually used chat GPT quite a bit. I've used it for two things:

Generating villain names

Generating villain descriptions

The names were pretty bad, despite feeding it hundreds of evil words dozens of times. The one name I liked was the surname Skinslave (lol).

The system is pretty good do for generating predictable villain names like Plagueburst and Filthspawn, but so far I've come up with funnier names on my own (Willham Pigsbane, Valgaroth Hinflayer, Deformicus Dreadpox, Killgamesh, Bardgrinder, etc.)

I also find myself extremely disappointed with the descriptions ChatGPT comes up with

In general I think the human imagination is better than GPT.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Eira » Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:01 am

Using it as a tool to edit writing to supplement lack of experience? Based.

Using it to replace any effort at writing, passion, and roleplay? Cringe.

When the roleplay you find yourself in feels as laborious to do as a high school essay, then why not find different roleplay? Do what you are passionate about, what makes you feel good, what actually excites you to log on for.

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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Wethrinea » Wed Jul 05, 2023 5:11 am

At the very core of it, it is just a statistical model that guesses which words come next based on your input. But it is a very large model that has a lot of useful information it can utilize.

I have used it for character concept generation, and sometimes it really can surprise you. Like when I asked it to make the case for an utilitarian animator, and it made the argument for "comforting the living by letting them interact with suddenly deceased family members". Or making the blueprint of an infernal pact contract.

I would not use it for in-game conversations/RP directly however, both because the organic flow of them is what brings me joy, and because it just seems inefficient to have to give a bot input when I can do better on my own in shorter time.

This comes with the caveat that I have only used the free V3, and not V4.

Text and image generating AI is here to stay, and like any new technology it can be used well or poorly. I think it has merit in the writing process, for editing, idea generation, translation and the like. Just remember it is all statistics though.

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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Hazard » Wed Jul 05, 2023 6:32 am

Marsi wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 2:15 am
Hazard wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:24 am

It's incredibly noticable. The tool just isn't there.
Seems very gimmicky at the moment. Not buying into the hype. Maybe one day, but atm it's just word salad.

It isn't this creative tool people make it out to be. It cannot be anything other than generic, the absolute average of whatever prose it has been trained on.

It can't even generate poetry that isn't simplistic nursery rhyme. It's remarkably limited. It's fairly obvious unless heavily reworked.

If you need to use AI to write for you, why write at all? Your content paste doesn't need to exist, and you are not entitled to the time and attention of others players, who would all prefer to be interacting with genuine human creativity.

I would much rather read ESL than GPT prose. I've had many memorable interactions with ESL or dyslexic players because creativity and imagination shines through even the most broken prose. But nothing can help a boring or incurious player. If you are a weak writer (bc if you think GPT is even remotely useful, that is what you probably are - sorry!), learn some respect for the medium and try to improve on your own. You can't hide mediocrity, certainly not with a mediocrity machine.

Not a kneejerk reaction, I'm a software engineer, and all the engineers I know have gotten pretty bored of it. Only people still banging on about it are former-crypto grifters, people who actually work in AI or on AI apps, or the pathologically clueless. It's hilarious to me that people think we can build a forever exponentially powerful god machine when the tech industry has become so dysfunctional that basic communication platforms can't seem to keep their lights on.

+1

Glad to hear from a software engineer about this stuff.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Grimey Straatwalk » Wed Jul 05, 2023 11:38 am

I have a character named "Chad Geetepe" who some of you have interacted with. I tell the AI it is a character on arelith, and I tell it what it sees, and then tell it to only respond speaking for the character and keep it to one or two sentences. It requires reminders that it is pretending and that it should only respond by what the character says. I describe what the character sees and it makes things up using that info. The result is quite excellent, where Chad had a number of pointless conversations. It can only seem to respond in ways that are not very leading. It is also impossible to handle more than one person at a time.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Cthuletta » Wed Jul 05, 2023 2:31 pm

Eira wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:01 am

When the roleplay you find yourself in feels as laborious to do as a high school essay, then why not find different roleplay? Do what you are passionate about, what makes you feel good, what actually excites you to log on for.

+1 and a very good point.

I'm very new to the concept of the AI Chat Generator, and before this thread, I don't think I'd come across a person using it in real-time RP.
But I'm here to play with other people, not an AI. If I realized the person I was playing with, was just spitting out AI lines at me instead of actually writing their character themselves, I'd probably move on... there are apps that let you play and talk with AI all over the place, granted from the ads I've seen, they kinda go in the creepy direction... but I still have that option and don't take it for a reason.

Also agree with others here that using it to help get an idea on an item description or bio is fine if you edit it to suit the setting, but if you wanna roleplay, you shouldn't rely on an AI to do so. Your own skill is absolutely fine, and if you wanna learn to be 'better' at RP, whatever that may mean to you, there are those around here who are very friendly and can offer suggestions.

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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by MRFTW » Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:32 pm

There is no place for automated roleplay, at all, ever.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Jul 05, 2023 5:24 pm

Someone hung libel up that was obviously written by AI, it read like a teenager trying to meet a word count requirement in an essay. Nobody will be getting their rpr raised by using chatgpt to RP.

ESL people should just speak however. Your roleplay matters more than your grammar. I know of at least 1 50 rpr noticibly ESL person, who doesn't have perfect grammar. Their RP is great, it doesn't matter if their grammar is perfect.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Hoodoo » Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:30 am

test


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Preserver » Sat Jul 08, 2023 1:41 pm

As a roleplayer and a linguist I feel very passionately about Chat GPT as a tool for research and to be researched.
It is extremely functional in finding reference texts and works online (I am not sure if anybody here is heavily into academia, but I feel that Chat GPT is much better at finding bodies and corpora of text much better compared to the vast majority of dedicated research engines).
By extension, it is very useful to find (or generate) a small body of reference texts that you can then use as inspiration to refine.
At the same time, it is very useful to refine text that you have already created.

It is, however, absolutely awful, noticeable, and soul-barren for whatever concerns matters of actual active RP.
Though I do understand people feeling as if they can use it to compensate what they feel as a lack of refinement in their writing, there is so much more to be gained on a formative level by doing your own writing and making glaring mistakes that will make the learning process more relevant.

That said, I don't really see it as a threat or an offense onto my own RP. If someone wants to painstakingly input my RP answers into ChatGPT to have me converse with the AI, that's not something that inherently troubles me. I just feel as if it damages the experience for the user!

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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Dr. B » Tue Jul 11, 2023 5:02 pm

Preserver wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2023 1:41 pm

As a roleplayer and a linguist I feel very passionately about Chat GPT as a tool for research and to be researched.
It is extremely functional in finding reference texts and works online (I am not sure if anybody here is heavily into academia, but I feel that Chat GPT is much better at finding bodies and corpora of text much better compared to the vast majority of dedicated research engines).

I've had completely the opposite experience. On many occasions it has cited texts can't be found or simply don't exist. It makes sense that it would be terrible at that, because all it does is generate language based on statistical patterns: it can't actually locate and identify a source per se. In many other cases, it will just cite sources that are not directly relevant to the topic. It doesn't even remotely compare to going to an archive for the discipline I'm searching in and doing a keyword search.

Don't get me started on what it does when you tell it to provide in-text citations in its answers.


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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Xerah » Tue Jul 11, 2023 5:43 pm

It can generate cited text examples. It can also make them up (see the example of the lawyer using ChatGPT to reference non-existent precedence). You need to make sure you check them.

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Re: ChatGPT & Roleplay

Post by Cuchilla » Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:30 pm

Irongron wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2023 3:32 pm

Time to add -autorp <Race> <Alignment> On/Off as a console command?

:lol:

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