meme posting

[Sincra]

Roleplaying on this server is a requirement. Do not use OOC in chat. Do not use internet slang or directly reference either real life places, people or events.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Rules#Be_Ni ... to_the_DMs

These are the rules.

[Windows95 CD-ROM]

Personally, I'm not arguing against things like that or 'modern phrasings' or terminology. My main concern here is that people don't seem to take the setting seriously in their writing with one another. Very basic and simple things like, 'okay', or 'I mean' or very basic ordinary but modern terms are fine.

But when I walk into Cordor and see someone emoting bonking each other on the head with their staves it's pretty clear what the intent and context is. It's inherently immersion breaking. They're not taking their writing seriously or showing respect for the other people that come near to roleplay and participate in being immersed in the fantasy medium.

There's really nothing wrong with sharing good jokes and jests amongst friends, but I think it's important to keep in mind that we're on a public server with strangers and people that want to enjoy roleplay and participating in a fantasy world, and these strangers who are not our friends or 'inside' with the joke may not be so appreciative, and may be off-put or really feel that their roleplay is not going to be thoughtfully respected if they engage with people who do this.

[Dr. B]

But when I walk into Cordor and see someone emoting bonking each other on the head with their staves it's pretty clear what the intent and context is. It's inherently immersion breaking. They're not taking their writing seriously or showing respect for the other people that come near to roleplay and participate in being immersed in the fantasy medium.

In the level of detail you've provided, and without suitable context, I actually don't see the issue. Where's the incongruity between bonking someone on the head with a staff (I assume lightheartedly?) and FR lore?

This is why I keep posting here, by the way. It is, again, not because I'm in favor of meme-posting or references to RL things--as Sincra seems to keep suggesting in their replies to me--but because for every person arguing against meme-posting, another person comes into this thread and adds their own arbitrary peeves to the list.

Consider my posts here a check on these replies, not an argument against the main point.

[Sincra]

But when I walk into Cordor and see someone emoting bonking each other on the head with their staves it's pretty clear what the intent and context is. It's inherently immersion breaking. They're not taking their writing seriously or showing respect for the other people that come near to roleplay and participate in being immersed in the fantasy medium.

In the level of detail you've provided, and without suitable context, I actually don't see the issue. Where's the incongruity between bonking someone on the head with a staff (I assume lightheartedly?) and FR lore?

This is why I keep posting here, by the way. It is, again, not because I'm in favor of meme-posting or references to RL things--as Sincra seems to keep suggesting in their replies to me--but because for every person arguing against meme-posting, another person comes into this thread and adds their own arbitrary peeves to the list.

Consider my posts here a check on these replies, not an argument against the main point.

You're reading way too deep into everything I have said.

[Windows95 CD-ROM]

But when I walk into Cordor and see someone emoting bonking each other on the head with their staves it's pretty clear what the intent and context is. It's inherently immersion breaking. They're not taking their writing seriously or showing respect for the other people that come near to roleplay and participate in being immersed in the fantasy medium.

In the level of detail you've provided, and without suitable context, I actually don't see the issue. Where's the incongruity between bonking someone on the head with a staff (I assume lightheartedly?) and FR lore?

This is why I keep posting here, by the way. It is, again, not because I'm in favor of meme-posting or references to RL things--as Sincra seems to keep suggesting in their replies to me--but because for every person arguing against meme-posting, another person comes into this thread and adds their own arbitrary peeves to the list.

Consider my posts here a check on these replies, not an argument against the main point.

I'm assuming you're familiar with the meme about 'bonk! go to horny jail!' meme, right? It's pretty internet famous especially with the associating image of the shiba dog, hitting someone on the head. The word attained vast internet popularity with this meme and it's basically because tied to this joke.

[Dr. B]

Ah. No, I'm not familiar with that. I've used the term "bonk" in my roleplay a few times since at least 2014 but don't know about that meme. It's possible other people using it aren't aware of it either.

[Windows95 CD-ROM]

With it's popularity at this point I'm usually going to assume that people know the connotations of this word, at least now in the internet/slang space.

[Dr. B]

I've "bonked" people with objects on my characters using the emote bonk since the time that meme appeared and I had never heard of it until now. Assumptions about other people's minds (on Arelith and in Real Life) are often inaccurate and can have negative consequences. You know what they say about assuming things.

I'm just throwing out the possibility here that you're dead wrong about what some of these people are thinking. Consider it.

[stoneheart-]

no amount of pedantry and whataboutisms are going to change the (very obvious) message here

[great balls of fire]

I don't think "Let people have fun" is a suitable argument here.

This is about meme posting, something that when done amongst others not in on the joke detracts from the server.
Equally, growing up with a specific lexicon is no excuse.
I started on this server when I was 16-18 (I now don't remember the exact dates) and I certainly did not use the lingo of my peers while roleplaying.

I agree that meme-posting is wrong, but the conversation since then has developed and now people are also arguing against using other modern phrasings and structures that are very hard to avoid for modern Englishs speakers, and I'm engaging with that. I don't care, for example, if someone begins a sentence with "I mean." "Let people have fun" is always an important consideration and one of the underpinning guidelines of the server and its rules, along with "stay in character." There's a balance to be struck between these two priorities and people who veer too far in either direction create toxicity.

Here's a thought: in the Lord of the Rings Novels, the characters are not actually speaking English. They're speaking a language called "Westron," which Tolkien has "translated" into English for the reader. There's no FR equivalent for "Like comment and subscribe!!" but maybe there are FR equivalents for "I mean..."

I mean, why is the common tongue even English? If we take the logic here too far, then our characters should be speaking a fictional language, because why would an Earth language find its way into the Forgotten Realms? You have to draw the line somewhere. I suggest that we draw it at avoiding toxic judginess and the un-fun policing of other people's language.

I'm glad you brought this up. I have notes for this.

I've always been fascinated with the idea of introducing historical language or historical context into fantasy setting. These conventions of real life history are products of their time/context/circumstances, which obviously, wouldn't be the same context and circumstances of a world where magic exists, death is not final, gods are very real, and so on. There's a lot of nuances to language and behavior that are results of a given context.

In that sense, there are a lot of modern conventions of language that would probably be fine in character. An etymology of language does not exist in FR because it hasn't really been "in play" to develop and grow.

Therefore, starting your sentence in character with an, "I mean..." or deploying an overuse of "like" or "literally" is not necessarily problematic.

Again.

The issue is when the roleplay relies on memeposting for the portrayal of character.

If the writing leans on borrowing tiktok language, which is just phrases and terms that are used to refer to a meme/borrow that meme's definition instead of self-defining their intention, then it's meme language. If I have to be aware of an OOC context to understand it's IG use, then it's a problem.

If you're still confused on what's meme-language and what's modern vernacular, I'll put it like this:

Would you be able to explain what you're talking about in character if someone asked you to define it without feeling like an idiot? Would you have to introduce the context of the OOC meme into the IC world as to justify it? If yes, you have found a meme.

When I see the same character always leaning on the ooc meme context of language for their character portrayal, I'm going to feel like that character isn't really trying hard. The language you use in game should be self-defining and specific. I should not need to have a tiktok account to get the joke, or the terminology.

So, again. Just consider whether or not you're being your best when you're writing out in the world. The "fun" of Arelith is writing a story. If writing is not fun for you, then idk man, maybe got to think about some things.

TLDR;

in fiction, it is IMPERATIVE, that language is self-defining. the reader should be able to readily identify context and meaning of phrases and language with stuff inside the setting of the fictional world. When the reader has to cross the fictional world and go into the real world to find the context to define a phrase or slang or for the interpretation of a thing, then it's blurring the boundaries between fiction and reality.

put a little effort. please. I'm begging you. Just a crumb of effort. just try.

[great balls of fire]

I've "bonked" people with objects on my characters using the emote bonk since the time that meme appeared and I had never heard of it until now. Assumptions about other people's minds (on Arelith and in Real Life) are often inaccurate and can have negative consequences. You know what they say about assuming things.

I'm just throwing out the possibility here that you're dead wrong about what some of these people are thinking. Consider it.

Let's unpack this.

If I see a character who uses [bonk] a lot on other PCs, I'm going to interpret the following:
->playful harmless violence
->okay with casual violence
->uses violence as comedy
->probably not very serious
->[other stuff from the context]
->immature/childish

That's fine if that's your roleplay.

Again, no one is telling anyone who to roleplay. We are reminding people that your roleplay is being seen and interpreted. Just think about whether or not that's the thing you're trying to convey when you use language. This isn't a witchhunt or a crusade against fun. This is to ask people to reflect on their RP and if it's really the story they're trying to convey.

[Diegovog]

People are judging me if I start a sentence with "I mean"????

[AstralUniverse]

People are judging me if I start a sentence with "I mean"????

Yeah this is kinda crazy for me to read as well.

I mean...

I'm scared to even think about how many times (could be 0, too) I could have and maybe had used it to begin a sentence.

Honestly, this thread isnt wrong in the premise. Too much meme referencing is bad. But I dont think our playerbase needs to be held in standards of old english in general. That's just too much effort for me as a none native english speaker to put into every single thing I type. I too dont like modern slang, but the really small things like "I mean..." and "yo, mate how's it goin'?" and "like..." are just... there to stay and there's no point or need to fight it.

[Paint]

Here I am on the Arelith forums, reading bonk roleplay discourse. A reality that I now have to suffer. Bonk is an onomatopoeia. It's imitating a sound. If memes have poisoned the well for you so much that you assume everyone using the word, 'bonk,' is referring to a specific meme, there is no saving you. There is no help for you.

I love my little jokes, and I think they can get inserted pretty tastefully when you're trying. There are also times when you probably shouldn't joke. Cutting the tension of a scene by citing some meme in context sucks. But if we're just jogging through a dungeon w/friends and the conversation heads a certain way, a cheeky joke isn't breaking anyone's immersion, and as long as you're staying in-character with what you say, it can help to describe that character's sense of humor.

Dr. B may have a pretty good point here, though. Just because you read someone's intent as making a specific reference or meme, you might uh, you might be wrong? I try not to read into what people are saying too much unless it's so glaringly obvious that I have no choice.

Monkey brain sees patterns everywhere.

On the subject of modern slang, it's pretty clear it can have a detrimental effect to roleplay. Especially internet slang. Nothing can break the immersion of a scene quite like someone saying, "can u tell me where 2 buy weapons lol?" That kind of stuff happens a lot on Skal, but it's usually from people who are new to the server. Most of the drip and rizz jokes I see around Arelith are on discord servers rather than in-game, so I don't really have much opinion here other than maybe don't so much.

As a side note, characters can be irritating and immature on purpose, and if you hate those characters, that's fine, but I don't think it makes their roleplay bad on its own. Try not to confuse them with uh, the, 'meme posters.'

People are judging me if I start a sentence with "I mean"????

People are judging you for everything. It is the pain of being alive as a communal creature. Don't worry about it.

[Disaster Lesbian]

Being judged over something so simple as 'I mean' is....jarring to me. People can be expressive, things can be onomatopoeic and expressed in such a fashion. While things can be memey, perhaps we should instead try a delicate hand and through mutual roleplay, improve and do better. Linguistic elitism is off-putting, especially as not everyone speaks English as a first language. People will ultimately use what they find comfortable and improve from there.

Be kind, be patient, and help others. Being annoyed at how someone else uses words like 'I mean' to start a sentence, or over onomatopoeia isn't a healthy way to endure these things. Everyone gets better by helping raise one another, not by making someone feel put down by how they try and Roleplay. We're here to have fun, after all.

[great balls of fire]

Here I am on the Arelith forums, reading bonk roleplay discourse. A reality that I now have to suffer. Bonk is an onomatopoeia. It's imitating a sound. If memes have poisoned the well for you so much that you assume everyone using the word, 'bonk,' is referring to a specific meme, there is no saving you. There is no help for you.

I love my little jokes, and I think they can get inserted pretty tastefully when you're trying. There are also times when you probably shouldn't joke. Cutting the tension of a scene by citing some meme in context sucks. But if we're just jogging through a dungeon w/friends and the conversation heads a certain way, a cheeky joke isn't breaking anyone's immersion, and as long as you're staying in-character with what you say, it can help to describe that character's sense of humor.

As I've said before.
The issue is not when you're jogging through a dungeon with friends, or when you're hanging out with your pals. It's not even the occasional joke or funny haha.

It's when the joking and memeing encompasses an entire public social hub. It's when the OOC discord jokes are in IC. It's when people are just saying the same jokes they said in discord in character. It is when those same jokes are then alienating people from participating in the space because they are either in on the joke or they are an outsider to a public social hub (like taverns, town squares).

There's ways to be tasteful and subtle. As someone else has noted, when done correctly, you won't even notice meme-ing IC when it's correlative to the character. But when I read a description that tries to convince me of a badass brooding army man who is unsmiling and severe, and then I see him in play emoting about being a silly lil drip king on a love quest for an elf gf, I'm sure you see the dissonance.

I try very hard not to read into anyone's RP as references to memes unless there's literally no other way to interpret the language as being in relation to a meme. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes, there's no other way to describe what someone's doing when it is so very clearly NOT what their character is about. I can claim this because I make a habit of asking the characters who do weird meme stuff to explain what they're doing. And most of the time, they can't.

It's totally fine if your playing a character who is young and immature and a goof ball. Totally fine! I've enjoyed plenty of characters like that. I don't see any reason to be offended or upset people are interpreting your character as a goofball or immature/young when that is what you were trying to do.

To reiterate the point I've been making and taking pains to identify:

IC meme posting can be alienating to those not "in on the joke" when they occur in public social hubs
IC meme posting during a public event is disrespectful to the effort of the PCs who put the event together in an effort to create an immersive story telling experience
IC meme posting in public social hubs has often been my first impression of many PCs. Which is a shame, because I can tell that is not the quality they bring to the table or what they're capable of doing when they put in the effort.

Let's not try to derail the discussion. "Look I'm just having fun, don't be so judgemental!" is just dodging personal responsibility to building an immersive communal story. That's great you're having fun. Is your fun conducive to everyone else's fun? Are you putting your best foot forward when you're adding to the communal narrative among strangers? Are you giving people the same energy you would want them to give your PC if you were in the same context?

Part of why I'm being so severe in this is because the meme-language has become a kind of secret handshake for certain crowds. This isn't about me being patient with everyone else. I am more then patient. This is about memers alienating anyone who does not laugh at their meme jokes and goofy behavior. I have felt more snubbed by perpetrators of memery then I have done any snubbing. The same people who would say they are super duper inclusive and that roleplay is so valid are often the same people whose memery ends up alienating people who are not on the same meme as them.

[Windows95 CD-ROM]

I actually saw someone repeat someone's typo in quotations today as a meme IC. The party that typoed appeared to be a brand new esl player. I'm assuming the other party wasn't aware. I don't think it's cool to do that unless there's at least been some back and forth beforehand and everyone is cool.

[great balls of fire]

I actually saw someone repeat someone's typo in quotations today as a meme IC. The party that typoed appeared to be a brand new esl player. I'm assuming the other party wasn't aware. I don't think it's cool to do that unless there's at least been some back and forth beforehand and everyone is cool.

Thank you. Exactly. This is EXACTLY. What I am talking about when I say the joking can become alienating.

This is not about an ESL player being bad with language. This is about memers using jokes and memes to dunk on others and invalidate others' RP. Let's not pretend repeating the ESL player's typo back to them was a totally IC response. The people who are guilty of this behavior know they're being cheeky and subversive of the RP for a quick laugh. I'm sure it's fun for them. It's not fun for everyone else.

[Windows95 CD-ROM]

People are judging me if I start a sentence with "I mean"????

No

[Cybren]

I feel like this was settled on the first page; use modern english and avoid being overly cute or referential. As far as "bonk" goes, onomatopoeia are good and useful and hitting someone in the head for being horny is a trope that has to be at least a few decades, if not centuries older than the internet, so I don't see the problem with that unless they literally use the phrase "horny jail" immediately after.

[Edens_Fall]

I actually saw someone repeat someone's typo in quotations today as a meme IC. The party that typoed appeared to be a brand new esl player. I'm assuming the other party wasn't aware. I don't think it's cool to do that unless there's at least been some back and forth beforehand and everyone is cool.

Not to brag, but I do feel rather notorious at typos and bad spelling IG to the point that those who know me can pick out my PCs no matter what login name I use because if it. While I have received light hearted OOC tells about my butchering of the english language, I have been fortunate to not be called out IG over it.

It does lead to my previous post however which might have been misunderstood. I agree meme, internet, RL people/events, modern tech, and crazy slang don't belong IG. My fear though is that things swing to far the other direction to were those new or inexperienced are driven away by a rigid player culture of RP standards. Not saying that is the case now, but it's not something I want to see happen in the future.

So yes, memes bad IG . . . But let's not go to far into the weeds. Let people have fun. That's why we are here after all. Poor Grammer structure or spelling is minor unpleasantness we can bear I think for the betterment of everyone's enjoyment.

[Crookedblossom]

Big agree with OP.

Seeing memes IC is jarring, especially when the situation is dire or serious. Even in a casual setting, I find it difficult to engage with because its out of place and strange for a roleplay setting.

everyone is in goof troop hours

[Ad Astra]

People are judging me if I start a sentence with "I mean"????

this is me rn over this thread

https://youtu.be/JZevBhWU0nA?si=ffZc2SUuYRyE8xjI

[Marsi]

Let people have fun.

Why? Why must we make sure the players doing the least are "having fun"? What does that even mean?

I don't think this has anything to do with ESL. No-one is arguing that we should all write in Elizabethan English. I think the complaint describes a kind of discord-brained player who knowingly treats public, IC spaces as an extension of their private group chats. They are neither children nor ESL and not, in my experience, a new player.

I would argue it's not even about having fun, it's a projection of their OOC in-group culture, a display of soft power.

For all this talk of elitism, ironically the only time I've ever felt shut out or gatekept on Arelith is when I've tried to interact with a player or faction I've heard is cool but have found to spend a great deal of time joking around and acting out IRL memes. And you're iced out or brushed off if you don't play along and speak the shibboleths. Very, very frustrating when this is happening in a settlement or faction crucial to your character concept and you can't just avoid them.

Someone who is actually "having fun" will survive a respectful, rule-abiding opinion. My fun has never precluded someone speaking their mind.

[Ork]

"