Feedback (Disguise) tag.

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Active DMs, Forum Moderators

Post Reply
kiljaedon
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:56 pm

Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by kiljaedon » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:02 am

I am aware that the reason for the tag is because of the possibility of ruining someone's reputation and the problems that can come from being able to pretend to be someone else but on the flip side of the coin when a person's core RP might be around -disguise it also has the side effect of people treating the person with indifference to even outright wanting to not include them in RP.

I have different experiences every time I play a character that has a (disguise) tag versus an alt of mine that does not use disguises. Walk up RP is harder because people instinctively poise their character to not want to trust the disguised character regardless or not they have never met the person. Its a totally different game engaging with people on my non disguised character so surely another middle ground can be had.

Take away the ability to make your name and give a sub-list of descriptive generic names for people who want to use disguise to just appear as an extra in essence in an RP event as maybe Bodyguard for the person name etc. Also, I suggest maybe allow -disguise to instead give you a random name so that way the person cannot purposely choose another person to ruin their rep.

xanrael
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by xanrael » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:49 am

Do remember that -mimic is a feature and you can freely change your clothing without -disguise.

Tom the High Strength fighter in plate, helm, and shield could become Tom the Low/Medium Strength wizard that has on a robe and wields a glowing staff. You're not so much hiding yourself but your abilities, and if all people have to go in is your abilities then you can engage in subterfuge without actually pretending to be another person.

The downside to this is upon learning your name they can later -scry you without breaking server rules.

Edit: Also I'll add, you can rethink when you disguise. Bruce Wayne disguises himself as Batman, not the other way around. Bob the Baker puts on his face hiding helm and thick robes to meet the rest of his cult. They might see their alternative persona as their dominant one but it isn't the one they were born with or the one they use to go buy groceries.

kiljaedon
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:56 pm

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by kiljaedon » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:43 am

Hmm. After a bit of insight and some people discussing with me maybe two commands would be worthwhile. Keep the original with the tag and maybe a -disguise random that changes your name into a random name but removes the tag. Quite a few people use disguises for the secondary personality as was stated.

User avatar
Durvayas
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2208
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by Durvayas » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:35 pm

We've been over this dozens of times at this point. The reason the tag exists is to assist in preventing people breaking rules and getting away with it. The tag being a thing makes sending accurate reports to the DMs possible, and prevents them from needing to dig into IP addresses and game keys to hunt down people who are doing shady shit.

This is an especially critical function given that account names are not static anymore, and do not show up on the portal.

Its not going away, nor should it. The playerbase of this server has proven time, and time, and time, and time again that they cannot be trusted not to abuse mechanics like this without a hard check. This is that hard check.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

kiljaedon
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:56 pm

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by kiljaedon » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:44 pm

Not sure if you read the post since you did not even give response to the tweaks suggested. What does that have to do with my suggestions?
Attaching a random name can be the new check.

User avatar
Durvayas
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2208
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by Durvayas » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:15 pm

kiljaedon wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:44 pm
Not sure if you read the post since you did not even give response to the tweaks suggested. What does that have to do with my suggestions?
Attaching a random name can be the new check.
Your suggestion involves removing the tag.

Scrambling the name, randomgenning it, hell, even a series of dots, it makes no difference.

We've already established in plenty of other threads the tag is never going away.
The tag has to stay, for reasons we've gone over a dozen times. I read your post; My feedback on your suggestion is that its a nonstarter.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 2813
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:34 pm

Whilst on face value this isn't a bad idea, I can spot one problem with it right away, it could make life a little more difficult when dealing with bad griefers quickly.

True, in long term cases we could probably (I hope?) look up the disguise name (presuming the person noted down the random name, it would give an extra job for the player) and then chace this person down, cool.

But let's say we have a real griefer on our hand. The type who runs around just ganking people.
So they disguise themselves Divran Tork
And then they kill someone - in this case with no rp and such. without the tag they wouldn't be known by their real 'character' name, and the player would have little clue that they were disguised, though hopefully that person has been savy enough to notice the name and reports them.
Then they random disguise themselves as Grak Kren and does it again
Then it's Blimby Hannen
Then Krell Dumph
Meanwhile players who are collaing this no pvp jerk don't neccesarly nkow if it's one guy being a griefer, or just a string of unaccosiated murders.

It makes that sort of griefing a little bit easier, and reporting it a little bit harder.

That'd be my main concern reguarding this. Its no where near as bad as getting rid of the tag entirely, what with the random name, but it has some of the same issues that I just don't like.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

User avatar
Berried
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:33 am

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by Berried » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:55 pm

kiljaedon wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:02 am
I have different experiences every time I play a character that has a (disguise) tag versus an alt of mine that does not use disguises. Walk up RP is harder because people instinctively poise their character to not want to trust the disguised character regardless or not they have never met the person. Its a totally different game engaging with people on my non disguised character
That's metagaming!!! The 'disguise' tag is purely ooc. Unless someone's character has broken your disguise, their character should treat you the exact same way they would treat a character without the tag. But I think most people who do this are doing it unintentionally, rather than out of active malice. They know your character is up to shenanigans and that knowledge is just kind of unconsciously bleeding into their PC.

I don't agree that the tag should be removed, but I appreciate the reminder to be wary of this kind of player-to-character bleed. Metagaming can just kind of sneak up on us sometimes.

Sea Shanties
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:45 pm

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by Sea Shanties » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:30 pm

Though let's be honest, it can be a battle to get people to acknowledge any character they don't know. Drop a brand new level 3 anywhere and you'll find the gracious souls who are willing to humor you beyond a forced *nod* few and far between. It's only once you've been around a while that you're taken seriously.

I think if you're a character in disguise and you make yourself a presence in a community or area over the long term you will find plenty of people willing to RP with you. While it's true there are those who avoid the -disguised character I think the bigger culprit is people not wanting to get too invested in characters they think they'll never see again.

User avatar
Durvayas
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2208
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by Durvayas » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:14 am

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:34 pm
Whilst on face value this isn't a bad idea, I can spot one problem with it right away, it could make life a little more difficult when dealing with bad griefers quickly.

True, in long term cases we could probably (I hope?) look up the disguise name (presuming the person noted down the random name, it would give an extra job for the player) and then chace this person down, cool.

But let's say we have a real griefer on our hand. The type who runs around just ganking people.
So they disguise themselves Divran Tork
And then they kill someone - in this case with no rp and such. without the tag they wouldn't be known by their real 'character' name, and the player would have little clue that they were disguised, though hopefully that person has been savy enough to notice the name and reports them.
Then they random disguise themselves as Grak Kren and does it again
Then it's Blimby Hannen
Then Krell Dumph
Meanwhile players who are collaing this no pvp jerk don't neccesarly nkow if it's one guy being a griefer, or just a string of unaccosiated murders.

It makes that sort of griefing a little bit easier, and reporting it a little bit harder.

That'd be my main concern reguarding this. Its no where near as bad as getting rid of the tag entirely, what with the random name, but it has some of the same issues that I just don't like.
Makes reporting it a lot harder.

They could ....
randomname disguise
Murder someone
log off
Change their login accountname.
Randomname disguise again.
Commit another murder.

Rinse and repeat. Reporting them would actually be near impossible, because the account name would be changing constantly, and the lack of tag(as suggested by kiljaedon) would make it impossible to know it was the same character unless the victim was a dedicated spotter.

Furthermore, the portal would be a useless tool in figuring out if they were the same person, due to the changed functionality. The only commonality would be that they kill this person the same way every time. But if they're griefing fixtures, or doing other messed up shit, it simply is too hard for Arelith's playerbase to tell its one guy.

The scenario is bad even with the disguise tag, it becomes a worst case very quickly without it.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 2813
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:18 am

Durvayas wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:14 am
DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:34 pm
Whilst on face value this isn't a bad idea, I can spot one problem with it right away, it could make life a little more difficult when dealing with bad griefers quickly.

True, in long term cases we could probably (I hope?) look up the disguise name (presuming the person noted down the random name, it would give an extra job for the player) and then chace this person down, cool.

But let's say we have a real griefer on our hand. The type who runs around just ganking people.
So they disguise themselves Divran Tork
And then they kill someone - in this case with no rp and such. without the tag they wouldn't be known by their real 'character' name, and the player would have little clue that they were disguised, though hopefully that person has been savy enough to notice the name and reports them.
Then they random disguise themselves as Grak Kren and does it again
Then it's Blimby Hannen
Then Krell Dumph
Meanwhile players who are collaing this no pvp jerk don't neccesarly nkow if it's one guy being a griefer, or just a string of unaccosiated murders.

It makes that sort of griefing a little bit easier, and reporting it a little bit harder.

That'd be my main concern reguarding this. Its no where near as bad as getting rid of the tag entirely, what with the random name, but it has some of the same issues that I just don't like.
Makes reporting it a lot harder.

They could ....
randomname disguise
Murder someone
log off
Change their login accountname.
Randomname disguise again.
Commit another murder.

Rinse and repeat. Reporting them would actually be near impossible, because the account name would be changing constantly, and the lack of tag(as suggested by kiljaedon) would make it impossible to know it was the same character unless the victim was a dedicated spotter.

Furthermore, the portal would be a useless tool in figuring out if they were the same person, due to the changed functionality. The only commonality would be that they kill this person the same way every time. But if they're griefing fixtures, or doing other messed up shit, it simply is too hard for Arelith's playerbase to tell its one guy.

The scenario is bad even with the disguise tag, it becomes a worst case very quickly without it.
In the long term, we'd still be able to deal with it via checking logs and stuff. Going off CD key.

But you are entirely right - in the short term, working in the 'now' it would possibly make our lives very difficult indeed.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

kiljaedon
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:56 pm

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by kiljaedon » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:39 am

Durvayas wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:14 am
DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:34 pm
Whilst on face value this isn't a bad idea, I can spot one problem with it right away, it could make life a little more difficult when dealing with bad griefers quickly.

True, in long term cases we could probably (I hope?) look up the disguise name (presuming the person noted down the random name, it would give an extra job for the player) and then chace this person down, cool.

But let's say we have a real griefer on our hand. The type who runs around just ganking people.
So they disguise themselves Divran Tork
And then they kill someone - in this case with no rp and such. without the tag they wouldn't be known by their real 'character' name, and the player would have little clue that they were disguised, though hopefully that person has been savy enough to notice the name and reports them.
Then they random disguise themselves as Grak Kren and does it again
Then it's Blimby Hannen
Then Krell Dumph
Meanwhile players who are collaing this no pvp jerk don't neccesarly nkow if it's one guy being a griefer, or just a string of unaccosiated murders.

It makes that sort of griefing a little bit easier, and reporting it a little bit harder.

That'd be my main concern reguarding this. Its no where near as bad as getting rid of the tag entirely, what with the random name, but it has some of the same issues that I just don't like.
Makes reporting it a lot harder.

They could ....
randomname disguise
Murder someone
log off
Change their login accountname.
Randomname disguise again.
Commit another murder.

Rinse and repeat. Reporting them would actually be near impossible, because the account name would be changing constantly, and the lack of tag(as suggested by kiljaedon) would make it impossible to know it was the same character unless the victim was a dedicated spotter.

Furthermore, the portal would be a useless tool in figuring out if they were the same person, due to the changed functionality. The only commonality would be that they kill this person the same way every time. But if they're griefing fixtures, or doing other messed up shit, it simply is too hard for Arelith's playerbase to tell its one guy.

The scenario is bad even with the disguise tag, it becomes a worst case very quickly without it.
All of your statements are superficial and can be worked upon if the time is wanted to be devoted. Random names can be pre logged and a cooldown given to not allow use of the non tag version of disguise and the portal is a totally different monster. But since DM Grumpycat has weighed in then it is a non starter.

User avatar
DangerDolphin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:10 am

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by DangerDolphin » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:12 pm

Just make it so that if someone PKs you, you are shown their public CD key in your console log. Players can screenshot that and send to a DM.

BobTheSkull
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:19 am

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by BobTheSkull » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:48 pm

To say this is about making identifying rule breakers easier is a farse. User names are not static. They can log in with a new user name, use the current -disguise function to be Donald Trump (disguise) and then kill without RP or break your stuff. This provides no useful information to the DM staff. The Dev can go into the log to see who used the -disguise function to a given name, but at that point they are already having to dig into the log.

The one thing this does is avoid misidentification. In the above scenario we know it is NOT Donald Trump who trolled us. However this isn't accurate, as there is nothing preventing a person from -disguise their actual name. Now you have an alias within an alias. Still requires code hunting.

Further I could create a new character with the same name and user name as an existing character, and use scrolls to kill or to break people's stuff. No way to confirm without log searching.

Now the solution above about the log reporting the public cd key is the correct solution. 16 randomized digits that are only revealed when someone is killed or an item broken would be the perfect way to provide and report the issue.

Further, removing the grotesque (disguise) tag would do wonders for characters that utilize the -disguise feature as spies.

Lastly, this is the discussion and feedback forum. The point is to discuss and generate new ideas. Please do not shame it shut someone down for voicing on it. It is fine to link to similar threads, but just because an idea has been brought up before doesn't mean there is not a better solution or there. Particularly with the advent if Haks coming.

Sea Shanties
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:45 pm

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by Sea Shanties » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:04 pm

To say this is about making identifying rule breakers easier is a farse. User names are not static. They can log in with a new user name, use the current -disguise function to be Donald Trump (disguise) and then kill without RP or break your stuff.
User names on the portal page are static. It's always the one you created the character with, not what you logged in on, and that info is constantly used to meta disguise.

I don't even know what side I'm on here any more but just had to point that out.

User avatar
Durvayas
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2208
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by Durvayas » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:02 am

Sea Shanties wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:04 pm
To say this is about making identifying rule breakers easier is a farse. User names are not static. They can log in with a new user name, use the current -disguise function to be Donald Trump (disguise) and then kill without RP or break your stuff.
User names on the portal page are static. It's always the one you created the character with, not what you logged in on, and that info is constantly used to meta disguise.

I don't even know what side I'm on here any more but just had to point that out.
While this is true, it takes all of ten seconds to undisguise, then redisguise, and then the portal is useless for figuring out who is who again.

Using the portal as a hard check against rulebreakers hasn't been very useful ever since we stopped having to manually refresh it, and since it doesn't display a (disguised) tag on the portal, its easy to fool these days.

Before, it was a simple matter of opening the portal, and we had effectively a screenshot of who was on at the given time. Now, its very much about how fast you can check it, because it changes in real time.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

Bibliophile
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:43 pm

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by Bibliophile » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:12 pm

There used to be a player created thing that you could use to search people by character name or player name. This thing was shut down because players felt violated on their privacy. What exactly do you think they are going to feel if you are flashing their cd key up every time they do something?

I know I personally would hate it if in rp or an accidental AoE spell broke something and my cd key was flashed to everyone present or even just the person the fixture belonged to.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 833
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm
Location: East Coast

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:40 pm

I'd appreciate it if disguises weren't random. Some of us use personas with a custom description, -mimic stats, and outfit. Our entire RP would be nullified if -disguise was changed to be a random name.
Twily wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:09 am
Do you like Arelith existing?
If not, please just leave and move on with your life.

WJLIII3
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:21 am

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by WJLIII3 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:50 pm

Yeah randomization would entirely kill the whole concept of persistent identities, easily the most RP-producing and engaging part of the disguise mechanic. Everything else is just for getting away with bad behavior, which hardly needs to be easier.

BobTheSkull
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:19 am

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by BobTheSkull » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:20 pm

Sea Shanties wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:04 pm
To say this is about making identifying rule breakers easier is a farse. User names are not static. They can log in with a new user name, use the current -disguise function to be Donald Trump (disguise) and then kill without RP or break your stuff.
User names on the portal page are static. It's always the one you created the character with, not what you logged in on, and that info is constantly used to meta disguise.

I don't even know what side I'm on here any more but just had to point that out.
Thank you for the clarification!

kiljaedon
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:56 pm

Re: Feedback (Disguise) tag.

Post by kiljaedon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:11 pm

WJLIII3 wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:50 pm
Yeah randomization would entirely kill the whole concept of persistent identities, easily the most RP-producing and engaging part of the disguise mechanic. Everything else is just for getting away with bad behavior, which hardly needs to be easier.
Eh. That is why I suggested an addition while allowing the normal tag and disguise system

Post Reply