Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

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Drowboy
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Drowboy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:57 pm

Spellsword with their double imbue and EMA, Wild mages with perfect surge on 28+, Barbarians with bonus APR, Rangers with bane and +5 blade thirst, Paladins with +5 and holy sword, Fighters with +x weapons and AC, Druids with monolith and free epic spell, Rogues with +5 weapon and permahaste, Warlocks with perma gate summon and touch atack magic damage blasts
I know you don't mean it this way but what a great indictment of power creep well done.
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Dr. B » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:58 pm

Thanks, Aniel!

Let me add I am grateful for you starting conservatively and testing on the PGCC, rather than overdoing it with cookies and unleashing something potentially overpowered onto the server. And for listening to player feedback.

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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Drowboy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:04 pm

Same. I'd much rather it started undertuned and got tuned up, rather than whatever happened with monks or needing to get nerfed into the ground with feylocks.

Maybe since yall didn't think the stickiness of parry mode made sense for the class, a sort of pseudo-parry ability that scales based off parry to add DR-or-DI-or-AC with a (SMALL) amount of biteback or somethin?
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Zavandar
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Zavandar » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:14 pm

I am happy with how development and tuning of this class has progressed. I'll think of a few more builds with the new changes in mind. killing qstaff was good

i do think it might be nicer to make DCs scale off of int rather than dex. making it scale off of dex hurts str variants, but both should have int.
Currently plays Anaria Liamytholen.

Formerly played Rick Snyder, Peregrine Gwil, Mel Aran, Antoine Moreau, and Zanril.

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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Poolbrain » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:41 pm

My feedback:

Acrobatics/dash: I feel this is something that's mostly is gonna get used to get between shops or cities and with a small frustration as it lasts such a short while.

I feel like there could be a few solutions:

Add short duration offensive buffs (Possibly scaling?): The swashbuckler is an opportunist and a coward, he makes a grand entry but an equally grand escape when the going gets hot. Why not add some possibly short duration ab/damage and/or ac to the dash. A short buff allowing the SB to stand up to almost anyone, possibly landing a likely KD with that AB. When the buff ends the SB will find himself in a possible tight spot, did the dash change the tide or just make the other guy more pissed? (Time for third intention!)

Keep it defensive and add some save bonuses/disc bonuses/concentration (ac)? This could keep it as a weaker version of third intention, a reactive answer to a sudden situation. (spell being cast, sneaker appearing, TS potion getting chugged and so on). Perhaps give it a temporary spring attack (the feat for no AoO while moving)?

I think an offensive buff would be the most fun solution, giving the SB a way of doing a bit of hit and run. Shielding up in imp expertise while waiting for the cooldown to finally be able to land that knockdown on a high ac target while the high ac target knows the SB's plan and has to do something about it too. As it has such a short duration i think it opens up the possibility of having very juicy effects without being overpowered.

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Aniel
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Aniel » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:46 pm

Thanks, though I would be remiss not to say that Garrbear is equally deserving of such praise, his assistance with developing the class has been invaluable.

Balance is a very large priority for us and the PGCC serves as a fantastic grounds for gauging the power of any given class. It's far easier, after all, to make something underperforming and then give it tweaks than it is to make something very strong and then begin having to decide areas to hit, features to cut or numbers to slash.

In that same regard, the community at large has also been invaluable with the feedback provided. The class is shaping up very well and sits in an almost ideal spot I'd like to think.
Zavandar wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:14 pm
i do think it might be nicer to make DCs scale off of int rather than dex. making it scale off of dex hurts str variants, but both should have int.
The reason why we decided to make it dex-based is so that there was more of a reason to play a dex-based swashbuckler other than a bit of AC. Since otherwise there's not a lot of trade-off for double-dipping strength and intelligence for massive damage gains with WM.

CptJonas
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by CptJonas » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:00 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:57 pm
Spellsword with their double imbue and EMA, Wild mages with perfect surge on 28+, Barbarians with bonus APR, Rangers with bane and +5 blade thirst, Paladins with +5 and holy sword, Fighters with +x weapons and AC, Druids with monolith and free epic spell, Rogues with +5 weapon and permahaste, Warlocks with perma gate summon and touch atack magic damage blasts
I know you don't mean it this way but what a great indictment of power creep well done.
Well..yeah....but as long as its for everyone its fine...when everyone is OP noone is....like in Warhammer universe :D

Btw...I think that powercreep was necesary bcs of inherit inbalance in base classes...there were 2 options...nerf and tune down certain classes...or buff others to same powerlevel...they have gone with later...which is good in my oppinion

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Zavandar
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Zavandar » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:01 pm

Aniel wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:46 pm
The reason why we decided to make it dex-based is so that there was more of a reason to play a dex-based swashbuckler other than a bit of AC. Since otherwise there's not a lot of trade-off for double-dipping strength and intelligence for massive damage gains with WM.
i understand the logic, but let's say you have a 26 str swash with 13 dex vs, say, the other way around (26 dex and 13 str)

let's say the str variant gets their hands on draconic leathers and the dex variant just a +3 enh chest. this is what we're looking at:

Image

a 25% difference in damage, but a potentially 25% less chance to get hit (ac in the 50-60's range is very valuable with ab floating around high 40's/low 50's).

ac almost always wins out over damage, so i think dex is already incentivized enough. add in extra damage sources like div might or wep specs and the gap actually shrinks on the damage difference.
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CptJonas
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by CptJonas » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:11 pm

Aniel wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:46 pm
Thanks, though I would be remiss not to say that Garrbear is equally deserving of such praise, his assistance with developing the class has been invaluable.

Balance is a very large priority for us and the PGCC serves as a fantastic grounds for gauging the power of any given class. It's far easier, after all, to make something underperforming and then give it tweaks than it is to make something very strong and then begin having to decide areas to hit, features to cut or numbers to slash.

In that same regard, the community at large has also been invaluable with the feedback provided. The class is shaping up very well and sits in an almost ideal spot I'd like to think.
Zavandar wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:14 pm
i do think it might be nicer to make DCs scale off of int rather than dex. making it scale off of dex hurts str variants, but both should have int.
The reason why we decided to make it dex-based is so that there was more of a reason to play a dex-based swashbuckler other than a bit of AC. Since otherwise there's not a lot of trade-off for double-dipping strength and intelligence for massive damage gains with WM.
I am super happy for that idea...Let people test it and help it tune it and make it better....Just love it...

I have to just ask one thing...are ya up for some ideas of giving him some features for high level? Pure or near pure?
So we know if we can put out some ideas?

Btw...
One other isue I found out about this class its that its all over the place....You get bonuses for CHA, abilities which needs skills to be usefull, Dex bonuses and abilities, Int bonuses and abilities...Feats that benefits from saves...
We all know how hard is to gear up class with 3 atributes (SS, Pala) but those have some stuff which helps them (Transmutation focuses, Aura of glory and hard bonus to wis, etc)...Curently Swash is in spot that to utilize all (or atleast moust) you would want like 3 - 4 atributes, 3 skills, and saves....It would be nigh imposible to gear it....Any way or hope to make it more focused (not like you want/need it all) or just give some bonuses to acomodate for it? For example its nice that you have acces to cool skills like Taunt, parry and Spot...but how could you even use that if you have basicly no hope to get that on gear with rest of stuff you actualy want/need.....

Drowboy
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Drowboy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:42 pm

Feint/Second Intention:
Sooooooooo, about this. I love the ability, I do. Tying the DC to dex is- not the worst idea, and I see where it's coming from. That in mind, couple things:

Testing the same 21SB/4 F/5 WM from last night, the dcs have dropped from around 33-34 to straight 30. However: I don't think it's feasible for most setups to get that high. Why? My SB has 14 dex mod, and 70 bluff. Gift, greater bracers of persuasion, epic bluff focus. It was fine for testing but it's a huge character investment for an ability that, as others have pointed out- is countered entirely by a low level spell. Dropping con and str by (possibly) 4 points per round is hilarious, but a mid-tier DC with a huge investment that's easily countered isn't going to do it.

If it can't be made, somehow, to pierce NEP (even if it was an epic swashbuckler perk), something like the above suggestion, where the str drain becomes AB/Damage loss or somethig, and the con loss becomes.. idk, HP and fort save loss? Still should scale to int mod, maybe.

It'll be a powerful pve ability either way, of course, but in pvp it will make the SB's main draw third intention and int-mod stuff, which defeats the purpose of putting the save to dex in the first place: If you assume it's going to get neg prot'd away, you don't bother building for it, so you just run STR.
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CptJonas
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by CptJonas » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:03 am

Drowboy wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:42 pm
Feint/Second Intention:
Sooooooooo, about this. I love the ability, I do. Tying the DC to dex is- not the worst idea, and I see where it's coming from. That in mind, couple things:

Testing the same 21SB/4 F/5 WM from last night, the dcs have dropped from around 33-34 to straight 30. However: I don't think it's feasible for most setups to get that high. Why? My SB has 14 dex mod, and 70 bluff. Gift, greater bracers of persuasion, epic bluff focus. It was fine for testing but it's a huge character investment for an ability that, as others have pointed out- is countered entirely by a low level spell. Dropping con and str by (possibly) 4 points per round is hilarious, but a mid-tier DC with a huge investment that's easily countered isn't going to do it.

If it can't be made, somehow, to pierce NEP (even if it was an epic swashbuckler perk), something like the above suggestion, where the str drain becomes AB/Damage loss or somethig, and the con loss becomes.. idk, HP and fort save loss? Still should scale to int mod, maybe.

It'll be a powerful pve ability either way, of course, but in pvp it will make the SB's main draw third intention and int-mod stuff, which defeats the purpose of putting the save to dex in the first place: If you assume it's going to get neg prot'd away, you don't bother building for it, so you just run STR.
Nicely said...
But I would said it more up front...with less words...
If your feature inst worth investing into, and using...its same as it didnt exist...Just look at other "cool" features which were never used before change and some even after...like...how many monks actualy use quivering palm? Or basicly every monk ability before it was changed....Or PM abilities before they were changed...or...or...To put it simply....Abilities with low to ok DC and low reward when used with heavy investment into them are never used...bcs it that case noobody wants to build around them...If you want it to okish ability then it should have high enough DC and be usable....and when you want to make it do strong stuff you can go with lower DC or different detrement...Look at smiter builds...Its only like 3 times per day...and only on evil...and requires high investment....but when it works its super strong...So we actualy see some people building around it...But if it was any weaker or have any more detrement I dont thing anyone would ever go for it...And thats same as if that ability didnt exist in first place...

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Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:28 am

I don't know if this feedback is worthwhile, but-

I was disappointed to see that swashbuckler is a very number-focused class. It's partly why I never enjoyed their PnP iteration either. There seems to be the fusion of both fighting + social skills, which again echoes the PnP design, but they don't really... do... anything interesting with them. Their cookies seem all geared around fighting.

Which is fine, I guess. It just seems strange that we add a significant class that really doesn't get to interact with social skills differently. Idk. Maybe this is off the beaten path, but I was disappointed this seems to be just a conversion rather than an adaptation. I was expecting a Swashbuckler to handle Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate differently than other classes. Some kind of new cookie or tool or interaction that made them "wow neat."

Most of this thread is great that it tackles the number-crunching, but a lot of the swashbuckler just seems to be about numbers. The feint stuff is cool, yeah, but -

I guess my big thing is that I usually want to talk about new classes that let you Do Things you couldn't previously do in Arelith. That open up not just new mechanics, but new character space. I'm not sure what the swashbuckler does. I could make a "swashbuckler" before, and this just seems to be numbers now matching narrative. Rather than a new mechanical/narrative space.

I apologize if this is unhelpful, but I had to get it out.
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Apokriphos
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Apokriphos » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:21 am

A mid thirties DC save per round, ignoring spellcraft, is extremely strong.

The fact that even that will be ignored by the majority of meta builds on the server is a symptom of the larger problem of save over-proliferation in Arelith.

That being said, having tested a few build variants of Swashbuckler now in PGCC with the latest changes (*/WM, /Sin, /SD, SS/SB, SB/Monk/* so far, and continuing), I think it is a powerful class with a lot of potential variety, both as a small dip and a main. My only suggestion is echoed by some of the other posters in this thread, that the first and second intent harm AB, AC, and/or a skill like concentration so that negative energy protection won't be able to wholesale prevent it's effects.

Otherwise, it looks to be a robust addition to Arelith with a lot of potential synergies and plenty of space to grow.

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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Dr. B » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:54 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:28 am

I guess my big thing is that I usually want to talk about new classes that let you Do Things you couldn't previously do in Arelith. That open up not just new mechanics, but new character space.
Can you provide an example of what you mean? Can you also provide examples of other classes that have done this?

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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Aldros » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:23 am

Since qstaff was removed, why not also remove kama and any other monk weapons from working with swashbuckler features?

Not having to worry about monk synergy lets you tune up the class without breaking it, and will lead to some healthy diversity in swashbuckler builds on the server (rather than everyone running around with kamas).

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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by CptJonas » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:59 am

Well...Time for me to take time and write my feedback properly as others...

I will go first with curent features..

Level 2: Grace
Its cool bonus...not like you super need it if you take into consideration that you will be gearing Dex, and your main save is reflex...but it makes sense....so why not....

Level 3: Insightful Strike

Cool bonus....and its good idea to have it scale with level...but there is one thing which makes it meh...you basicly cap max bonus at around lvl 10, and after that...well....you cant get any more Int cant ya?

It would be cool if there would be added feature which would give more benefits at higher levels...Like bonus AB from Int mod with with cap of per each odd epic level...21/23/26/29? or something different...dunno....just it literaly screams if you want get all benefit from this, use just couple of levels, everything over is just waiste....

Level 5: Swashbuckler Dodge
I like this...nothing to say for or agains....I would maybe personaly increse these bonuses to +2 at 25 and 30....once again to give more cookie, and actual reason to go deep not just for dip....

Level 7: Mobility
Well...weird pick....you dont get anything from it....only reason why it could be here is to once again intesify multiclass....its literaly like creator said..."you should pick WM or SD with this class, or this feat is just waiste"

Level 8: Panache!
Kinda thematic...but at same time out off place....you allready want to have DEX, INT, and moust likely CON and last....and you are giving him feature for atribute which which he basicly cant resonably get? Its like noob trap....
If it were lower it could be used for cool dip option for sorcs etc.....but like this...weird...
I would maybe use same option like with harper paragon...if you have cha higher then 11 you get this bonus....if not, you get +2 to social skill per 8 class level?
That would actualy dont incriese allready hard load on gearing up, instead help with that...

Level 10: Elegant Strike

Kinda cool and fine...but looking at this...and at level 3 bonus...and isue with it...why not buff this one, and nerf that one...so you get equal damage bonus from both.....Like for example +1 damage bonus from dex and int mod for each 4 levels? You would end up with basicly same result in end damage point... just without geting +10 damage from int and just +3 from Dex even tho your main atribute is Dex?

Level 11: Luck of Heroes
Why not..Good feat....and fiting...

Level 13: Acrobatics Skill Mastery

At first look...its good....when you take into consideration that everyone is allready hasted..its loosing its potential...
If it gave player actual haste....that could be something.....but like this that speed bonus is waisted...Unless you actualy remove speed cap for duration of this skill...in that case it could actualy be good....

And second point...why so long CD? In PVP you would not have chance to use it more then once anyways....so why not get its CD to something which could be on (primarily on lower level, bcs on higher you are hasted) used to rush from one group to other group of enemies in PVE...something like 1-2 Turn CD should be more then enough...3 is exactly that spot where it starts to be meh...

Level 14: Feint
I love this move...but my isue with it...
It needs to go thro nega protection, or be changed to different stuff, even with same result, just so its not made redundant by potion which costs like 80g...You can say it could be breached...but at that point you take way more efort then your enemy (breaches cost more that potion, and its not even close to guarantee that you will actualy remove it..at which point they will simply reaply that....)

Level 17: Slippery Mind
Well...if SD and rogue can have it..why not..even tho you dont benefit super high from it thx to low will...

Level 19: Second Intention
Same as Feint...

Level 21: Third Intention
This is soo...soo cool...Just same with rest...
Can we get that CD lower...Once again...it wont afect PVP (fights dont last even close as long as even lvl 30 bonus)...so it doesnt matter if its CD is 30s or 30m if you can use it once per fight anyways....and if you take into consideration its duration is only 1/2 of turn (btw good change form 2s to 3) Can we lower those CDs to like 2m/1m/30s? so you can use lower tiers in PVE, and if you actualy go Pure...which is realy not suported much in current version of class.....you can get 3s per every 30s which still isnt exactly high....

So with this end my feedback to current things....now its time to move on to things which I would add...
Dont take it that I would add all of them....I am just spiting out all cool ideas...take your pick or dont...its up to ya...

I would consider adding more skillpoint per level...like...you have all those class skills...and just 4 per level? If ranger can get 6 why not Swash? its nothing major...but it would be nice....and would give people option to pick some skill that are not exactly meta...

Duelist: +2 to parry and Taunt per like 8 levels in class? maybe less, maybe more?
Both taunt and parry are perfect fit for this class from RP standpoint..but with curent state of class as said before....you would not have exactly option to add those secondary/tetrialy skills to gear...so it would help to have this feature...

Dreaded duelist: Feature for like level 26 or 28? something in epics...
Makes it so sucesfull taunt on players roots them for maybe 1 turn or just slows them heavily...so...its like...I challenge you to duel...no running for ya..I just taunted you...dont try to run...
And makes it so parry bonus damage is changed to 1/3 of parry skill past 20 points in skill instead of 1/4...

Both are thematic and actualy good features...


Lunge: This one was mentioned before by someone...Something like atack with bonus AB even like +20, which bypase reductions and armor and gives you like +30 or even more damage? Of course on CD, and maybe even with something like 1 round debuf to players ac like by 10...so there is risk involved...Could be once more added as feature in epic levels...


Fencer: bonus to AB (which could be added as normal bonus or even as that which adds to bypass damage reductions), and/or bonus APR when you use just one weapon with off hand slot free...
Or just make it double damage bonus from Dex/Int?
Or bonus to taunt like 6-10?
I just love idea of Swashbuckler with just rapier and free hand...Like proper fencer....
Could be added as epic bonus once again, or scaling bonus....or both...



Thats all from me for now...

You can tell that I realy like activ abilities and activ playstyle, not just click and let it do its damage...and that actualy fits class idea if I am not mistaken...And that I am fan of Pure or low dip (like 26/4) classes, and features,....

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Mythic
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Mythic » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:28 pm

So far I've been very much enjoying the class.

But like others, I've been finding some of the abilities to be a touch...Well not underwhelming, Just underwhelming in comparison to other things.

Third Intention : This is great, It's very skill based, Lets you negate all damage and CC incoming for 3 seconds. Like a get out of jail free card, Then it goes on a long CD. Which is also good. The main issue I see with this, is during Messy PvP fests, lag is going to render it useless.

And it's also going to be very difficult to avoid being Slapped in the face with a Mega-crit in Melee, which is what I would assume a Duelist-esque class is meant to be doing. So the only thing that I can possibly think of to "fix" that issue, is...I dunno, Make it so that you Heal the damage you just took from the previous Flurry?

Which would probably make all the WM players scream, But on a 3 minute cooldown, If you negate that giant Crit when it's incoming, Or "Feign" that you got hit with it, It's about the same effect no?

Fient / Second Intention
Personally I think the new 1/5th limit is pretty nasty, Meaning heavily invested folk can get the DC to roughly 30 as mentioned previous in this thread. But also makes it...Kind of lame when it can also be negated by a Negative Energy Protection pot/spell.

I would have thought, from seeing these is "Whittle the foe down" by crippling their damage/ab (Strength) And their health (Con)

The main thing I could think of to change this out, Is make it an on-hit effect as it is now, But instead of a STR/CON Drain, It does the following.

Feint : On hit, you take 1-2 AB from your oponent, Gaining it yourself and lowering theirs. Scaling upwards to 4-5 AB at level 28ish, Refreshed effect on Hit, and -scaling- upwards initially from 1-2 to 1-5, So it would take 2-4 Hits to Drain the full AB / Give it to yourself, It'd make Swashbucklers into a rather nasty Duelist, Nobody would want to be /locked/ into a melee with one, And it would work vs your enemies AC, instead of their Saves. Making it un-NEP'able. But Sneak or Crit immunity should prevent it. Due to not being things that could be "Whittled down" or "Struck where their offence slacks"

Second Intention : On Hit, drain 1-2 AC gaining it yourself, and lowering theirs. Scaling upwards to 4-5 AC at level 28ish.

Yes, It's the same thing as Feint, But for AC. Which would make them absolutely worth going Pure for. The main issue, would be keeping something in combat with you, once their ab and ac start draining. It would also make them more of a "Continued Battle" fighter, Instead of a Burst or Windup fighter, ala WM/Barb and Pal/BG


Going off what CptJonas said, Adding some form of Slow when you Taunt a foe, would give them a Fearsome ability to Tarpit whom you fight, and also lower their attacks by 1.


Insofar as Evasion being added, Q-Staff taken away, That's good stuff. Kama's should also be taken, Due to also having monk APR and being finessible.

Panache
Swapping from it Doubling your Charisma bonus to social skills, Whilst this is hecking flavoursome....I mean, Swashbuckler doesent benefit from high charisma? And it's not going to be a great class to Dip into for Charisma high builds due to mainly having its goodies at teen+ levels.

Perhaps give it scaling Charisma or Int bonus, whichever is higher. And also add it to Int Skills, such as Search, Appraise (A good Swashbuckler seems like a dashing enough rogue for a discount no?) And Parry (despite it being dex)

Or simply a 2/4/6/8/10 Bonus based on the level of swashbuckler. With level 30's effectively getting a free Epic Skill Focus in socials and Parry, Which would work with ESF on top. Because lets face it, if your going 30 Swashbuckler, what's ESF Persuade really going to do / Would you take it?

. On top of that, Perhaps at epics give them Epic Reputation, just for thematic reasons.
But, perhaps it's not quite worked due to a massive amount of folk being Dex-Based, where STR drain doesent do much against 'em or their AB and 8 attacks (Looking at monks)
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:56 pm

The feint/2nd intention DC is simply still too low compared to other similar DCs.

Let's say I hate myself and I'm playing a pure swashbuckler. I'm also a 18 INT character who decided to gear INT AND bluff ( which makes me insanely weak in several areas ). I am never going to do this, but let's pretend I'm feeling ambitious:

Therefore, 10 from INT mod, 15 from levels and 10 from my bluff. DC 35. An alright DC, I suppose.

Now let's look at spellsword. 27 spellsword 3 bard, correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's what people play the most these days for the sake of not being weak to dispells. Their imbue DC is 10 base + spellsword level + 4 from the highest tier of imbue, that's DC 41. If you don't care about dispels, you can take 4 levels of fighter dropping the DC down to 37. Spellcrafting helps you pass the check, true, but in comparison you barely give up anything in order to reach that DC. You, literally, just need spellsword levels - and you'll be taking those no matter what ( again, mostly for the sake of dispels ).

EDR barbarians are comfortably sitting on 36 DC for the terrifying rage ( 10 intimidate, 15 levels, 6 base CON + 5 ). They don't really trade much for it. You just gotta level up intimidate, I guess, which is not that big of a deal - barbs get 4 + INT skills per level. If you also happened to kill the old beast in the cage then you get free 4 intimidate from epic reputation.

Okay, now let's be realistic for a moment and see what the actual DC of feint 2nd/intention would be:

16 INT unless I'm an INT race and also because CON is a priority over INT ( I start with 9 STR and I'm very unhappy ), 24 swashbuckler because frankly there is nothing up there that justifies going pure, but maybe I can think of a way to make use of the 3rd intention... ( *visions of whirlwind abuse* ) 35 bluff/intimidate/persuade because I am NOT gearing for that stuff. The gear I'm looking at is 2 discipline, DEX, CON, UNI and... I decided to take INT and not STR, because of the new change, and I'm even more depressed now) : My DC is 27 and I have only butchered my character by taking INT over STR ( STR would give me discipline which is a very important skill, and if it weren't for the DC change I'd still take STR as the 4th ability. Let's even say I went pure, the DC is a laughable 30. Most folk playing the class will be having this DC, and if you happen to run into a SB who's popping a 35 DC feint on you? They either have very low will and fortitude saves, or he's sitting at 300-400 HP for the lack of CON ( and you don't want to be sitting at 300-400 HP as a melee ).

Feint and 2rd intention is the bread and butter of the class ( at least in my book, I guess ) and I'd love if it was given some tweaks, or: Swashbuckler gear. INT + Social skills on an armor piece would help them a lot. The Enchanted Fine Silk Shirt doesn't give them anything desirable other than the AC.

By the way, I'm really happy with the recent changes, just so this doesn't look like I'm only complaining.

Also, on a side note: Grace is kind of a weird feat? Their reflex is going to be high no matter what, what's the point of making it even higher? Oh, well.

dallion43
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by dallion43 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:36 am

https://imgur.com/a/MGdgl6p
Image

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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:11 am

Things I would do right away to improve the class:

Add appraise to the list of skills (ok probably few if any but me care about this)

Remove strength based damage bonus.

at SB level 25 double the intelligence bonus to damage.

at SB level 28 triple it.

Start telling me why I'm wrong :)

AstralUniverse
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:13 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:11 am
Start telling me why I'm wrong
You're wrong because its all brand new and there's no reason to shut down all str iterations of this class instead of doing tweaks.

Also if we could please have a list of available feats and bonus feats in the wiki for this class. Its not like we can check nwn wiki for those, I would appreciate it a lot. Add epic weapon specialization to that list (similiar to CoT).
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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:53 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:13 am
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:11 am
Start telling me why I'm wrong
You're wrong because its all brand new and there's no reason to shut down all str iterations of this class instead of doing tweaks.

I'm not sure any strength version isn't just going to be weaker then the options available already, it really depends on how good the intentions are in practice. I just got the sense that this was made to be a dex and intelligence character. That being said I'm pretty sure instead of removing strength flat out it can be tweaked to be "if dex is higher then strength, then.."

Nobs
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Nobs » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:55 am

Maybe add this feat for dexers?

Daring Outlaw
Type of Feat: General

Prerequisite: Grace +1, Sneak Attack +2d6.

Benefit: Your rogue, ninja, and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage. For example, a 7th-level rogue/4th-level swashbuckler would deal an extra 6d6 points of damage with her sneak attacks, as if she were an 11th-level rogue.

You combine grace and stealth to deadly effect.

CptJonas
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by CptJonas » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:16 pm

Nobs wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:55 am
Maybe add this feat for dexers?

Daring Outlaw
Type of Feat: General

Prerequisite: Grace +1, Sneak Attack +2d6.

Benefit: Your rogue, ninja, and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage. For example, a 7th-level rogue/4th-level swashbuckler would deal an extra 6d6 points of damage with her sneak attacks, as if she were an 11th-level rogue.

You combine grace and stealth to deadly effect.
No..just no,...

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Swashbuckler Balance Megathread

Post by Tarkus the dog » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:19 pm

Something I forgot to mention in the previous post is that swashbucklers don't really need any extra reflex given by the grace feat, unless you're going STR ( Which is weird, because the class is so blatantly designed for DEX ). On top of that, the freedom they get for 3 rounds is, again, not that big of a benefit. I look at it as more of a "oh, cool, why not, I guess? I'll take it if it's free?". But seriously, not only can you drink a potion of freedom these days, you have so much reflex freedom is not something you care about that much. It only truly helps you with slows or if you're worried you might roll a 1.

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