All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

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Void
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All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Void » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:50 pm

Default arrows, bolts, bullets and even thrown axes are all currenlty sold in stores for 0gp, meaning they're free.

That sounds unintentionally generous.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by CptJonas » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:53 pm

Void wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:50 pm
Default arrows, bolts, bullets and even thrown axes are all currenlty sold in stores for 0gp, meaning they're free.

That sounds unintentionally generous.
Thats intetional I think...it was allways like this as far as I know...

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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by CookieMonster » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:09 pm

Very expensive for new players and character to keep arrows stocked up. This must be a means to help them?
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Void » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:00 pm

CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:09 pm
Very expensive for new players and character to keep arrows stocked up. This must be a means to help them?
(-_-)

WOuld be nice to put the prices back into the normal range. Otherwise everybody is gifting infinite amounts of ammunition for free, which doesn't make much sense.

Also, even with price of 8gp, any newbie will be able to afford few hundred arrows easily.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Zahlfire » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:58 pm

Void wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:00 pm
CookieMonster wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:09 pm
Very expensive for new players and character to keep arrows stocked up. This must be a means to help them?
(-_-)

WOuld be nice to put the prices back into the normal range. Otherwise everybody is gifting infinite amounts of ammunition for free, which doesn't make much sense.

Also, even with price of 8gp, any newbie will be able to afford few hundred arrows easily.
Those arrows are horrible, don't do much damage at all, and won't last anyone more than a few levels before you will need to craft your own. Having them free ensures that an archer won't run out of ammo at level 3 when they're only landing every third shot or so.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Xerah » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:22 pm

Why would you care whatsoever about this?
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Straxus » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:41 pm

I think that a bundle of 500 should at least be a gold piece, it sucks, in my opinion that you can't sell enchanted arrows.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Void » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am

Xerah wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:22 pm
Why would you care whatsoever about this?
Because it doesn't make sene when every merchant is giving away infinite amounts of arrows, bolts or throwing axes for free. Especially when trying to craft your own will cost you quite a bit in resources.

It breaks suspension of disbelief.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Biolab00 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:53 am

Void wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am
Xerah wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:22 pm
Why would you care whatsoever about this?
Because it doesn't make sene when every merchant is giving away infinite amounts of arrows, bolts or throwing axes for free. Especially when trying to craft your own will cost you quite a bit in resources.

It breaks suspension of disbelief.
Perhaps, we can just take it that it's a form of service in RP. After all, these kind of arrows are essentially junks and "we" are the major customer that buy and/or sell rares/uniques/enchanted stuff to them.
It doesn't hurt to give junks out, if you need it as a form of free service. And so i thought, to justify, if you feel that it's not logical.
Coz, i'm do business RL and it is also some of the approach that i undertake at times.

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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Void » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:09 am

Biolab00 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:53 am
Void wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am
Xerah wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:22 pm
Why would you care whatsoever about this?
Because it doesn't make sene when every merchant is giving away infinite amounts of arrows, bolts or throwing axes for free. Especially when trying to craft your own will cost you quite a bit in resources.

It breaks suspension of disbelief.
Perhaps, we can just take it that it's a form of service in RP. After all, these kind of arrows are essentially junks and "we" are the major customer that buy and/or sell rares/uniques/enchanted stuff to them.
It doesn't hurt to give junks out, if you need it as a form of free service. And so i thought, to justify, if you feel that it's not logical.
Coz, i'm do business RL and it is also some of the approach that i undertake at times.
"One billion arrows please ,for 0GP. Add to that five hundred million throwing axes. Also for 0GP.".

I think the price should be non-zero, and ideally in line with crafting recipes.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by CookieMonster » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:18 am

Void wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:09 am
Biolab00 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:53 am
Void wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 am

Because it doesn't make sene when every merchant is giving away infinite amounts of arrows, bolts or throwing axes for free. Especially when trying to craft your own will cost you quite a bit in resources.

It breaks suspension of disbelief.
Perhaps, we can just take it that it's a form of service in RP. After all, these kind of arrows are essentially junks and "we" are the major customer that buy and/or sell rares/uniques/enchanted stuff to them.
It doesn't hurt to give junks out, if you need it as a form of free service. And so i thought, to justify, if you feel that it's not logical.
Coz, i'm do business RL and it is also some of the approach that i undertake at times.
"One billion arrows please ,for 0GP. Add to that five hundred million throwing axes. Also for 0GP.".

I think the price should be non-zero, and ideally in line with crafting recipes.
"Feel free Sir, one bundle at a time. Help yourself for as long as you like."

If you want to sit their for hours and gather up thousands of arrows, go for it. Otherwise, what is the issue with a City suppling duds and surplus to it's new adventurers to control sewer and pest problems.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by DM Rex » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:31 pm

To be candid, people have exploited splitting apart high level ammo and used it to create vast troves of wealth.
I don't see it being changed back anytime soon.

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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Void » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:11 am

DM Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:31 pm
To be candid, people have exploited splitting apart high level ammo and used it to create vast troves of wealth.
I don't see it being changed back anytime soon.
If that's the concern, then the merchants should sell arrows but not buy them.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:35 am

DM Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:31 pm
To be candid, people have exploited splitting apart high level ammo and used it to create vast troves of wealth.
I don't see it being changed back anytime soon.
I've not done this (although if I was in a tight enough pinch for gold and I had the magic arrows to sell I certainly would have), but to be perfectly fair, I think calling this exploiting is a bit overzealous. What differentiates this from splitting a stack of 50 scrolls to make sure you don't only get 350 gold for your entire stack of 50 magical scrolls that would otherwise sell for thousands upon thousands?

Why would it be exploiting to treat high level rare ammo the same way, especially if it's something you have to sink resources into producing, or time into finding? Why would players doing this be viewed as trying to exploit or doing so in bad faith, when literally every other stackable item that you might sell that's worth more than 350 or so gold apiece is also broken down out of stacks before being sold? I certainly don't sell stacks of 30 cure serious wound potions or scrolls of polymorph without splitting them first.

I'm not taking umbrage with the decision that ammo isn't to be sold that way- merely the harsh outlook which seems to have prompted it (in response to a tactic that is normally applied to every other sellable stackable item of value IG, to boot). I can't think of a single thing that would reasonably indicate to me, as a player or a character, that I would be cheating to split my expensive arrows up to not lose tons of gold.

Is this "exploitation" specifically for arrows, or are we meant to not split other magical stackables before selling them, either? Was this arrow resource particularly easy to get and ridiculously valuable? Could this perhaps have been scaled on a smaller change by changing that particular arrow type's value instead?

Also, note, I'm not really arguing to change it, either- technically this saves me about ten gold/hunting trip on my sneak archer, so it's a win for me. I just don't understand the logic.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Void » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:04 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:35 am
DM Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:31 pm
To be candid, people have exploited splitting apart high level ammo and used it to create vast troves of wealth.
I don't see it being changed back anytime soon.
I've not done this (although if I was in a tight enough pinch for gold and I had the magic arrows to sell I certainly would have), but to be perfectly fair, I think calling this exploiting is a bit overzealous.
Yes, and people are doing that with potions and other items anyway.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by DM Rex » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:06 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:35 am
DM Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:31 pm
To be candid, people have exploited splitting apart high level ammo and used it to create vast troves of wealth.
I don't see it being changed back anytime soon.
I've not done this (although if I was in a tight enough pinch for gold and I had the magic arrows to sell I certainly would have), but to be perfectly fair, I think calling this exploiting is a bit overzealous.

....
I'm a DM, please refer to rule 5 of the server.
It's an exploit, it's been identified by the team as an exploit and will not be returning as a function to this server.

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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Kalopsia » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:06 am

Void wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:09 am
"One billion arrows please ,for 0GP. Add to that five hundred million throwing axes. Also for 0GP.".

I think the price should be non-zero, and ideally in line with crafting recipes.
I've recently noticed that while the price is displayed as 0GP, all ammunition in fact does cost 1GP. Likely a NWN limitation.
You can see that in your combat log after purchasing an allegedly "free" item. :)

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:35 am
[...] Was this arrow resource particularly easy to get and ridiculously valuable? Could this perhaps have been scaled on a smaller change by changing that particular arrow type's value instead?
I believe the exploit in question was about Assembly Templates and the ammunition that can be created with them.
Due to the various damage types, each arrow/bolt/etc did in fact have a pretty high value that significantly exceeded the investment in the assembly template used to create it.

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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:35 am
Is this "exploitation" specifically for arrows, or are we meant to not split other magical stackables before selling them, either?
I sure hope there isn't a rule against splitting items before selling them to NPC merchants, or I am so very guilty in doing just that with potions, scrolls, and any other valuable items that stack.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:44 am

DM Rex wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:06 am
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:35 am
DM Rex wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:31 pm
To be candid, people have exploited splitting apart high level ammo and used it to create vast troves of wealth.
I don't see it being changed back anytime soon.
I've not done this (although if I was in a tight enough pinch for gold and I had the magic arrows to sell I certainly would have), but to be perfectly fair, I think calling this exploiting is a bit overzealous.

....
I'm a DM, please refer to rule 5 of the server.
It's an exploit, it's been identified by the team as an exploit and will not be returning as a function to this server.
I'm not trying to slide by the rules or question your dm status. I'm not trying to overturn it. I'm just sincerely looking for clarity-

If the team calls it an exploit it obviously is one, now- I'm just trying to figure out why it drew what appears to be a critical eye, and how before this announcement anyone could have reasonably been expected to think it was one.

There's a difference between declaring something an exploit henceforth, and saying people were exploiting. I genuinely had no idea arrow stacks weren't meant to be split, and I don't see how anyone else could have been expected to know.

I may have been misreading your post, but my interpretation of it was basically that this was a punishment for willful cheating- what I'm looking for is why it would be presumed in bad faith.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by DM Rex » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:54 am

If you can produce a great amount of money with minimal effort, as with characters who can imbue and create arrow bundles once per rest, that's not really fair to those other players who have to hand in rat tails.

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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Void » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:31 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:44 am
DM Rex wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:06 am
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:35 am


I've not done this (although if I was in a tight enough pinch for gold and I had the magic arrows to sell I certainly would have), but to be perfectly fair, I think calling this exploiting is a bit overzealous.

....
I'm a DM, please refer to rule 5 of the server.
It's an exploit, it's been identified by the team as an exploit and will not be returning as a function to this server.
I'm not trying to slide by the rules or question your dm status. I'm not trying to overturn it. I'm just sincerely looking for clarity-

If the team calls it an exploit it obviously is one, now- I'm just trying to figure out why it drew what appears to be a critical eye, and how before this announcement anyone could have reasonably been expected to think it was one.

There's a difference between declaring something an exploit henceforth, and saying people were exploiting. I genuinely had no idea arrow stacks weren't meant to be split, and I don't see how anyone else could have been expected to know.

I may have been misreading your post, but my interpretation of it was basically that this was a punishment for willful cheating- what I'm looking for is why it would be presumed in bad faith.
As you know, merchants have limit on amount of gold they pay, which is around 300gp by default. So, meaning if you find an item worth 10000gp, you'll still be selling it for 300gp and have no choice for the matter.

An archer path Ranger can craft bundles of 500 damask arrows which can be further enhanced with essences and the like which drives their price up, and result will be worth over 10000gp according to nwn appraisal.

By selling the entirety of the bundle you'll get 300gp, but if you split it up you'll get entirety of the price or close to 10000gp pricepoint. That is, if you have the patience of selling 500 arrows one arrow at the time. The game also drops all kinds of "holy arrows" which cost 2 to 3k per 15 arrows, and those can also be split and sold.

The server policy seems to be not to allow the player to get rich, and hence restriction on selling arrows. The mechanical implementation doesn't feel right, however, as players can and WILL split other stackable items like potions, plus jewelry boxes and arcane scroll cases allow the same thing in automated way.
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Re: All ammo costs 0gp in stores.

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:21 pm

DM Rex wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:54 am
If you can produce a great amount of money with minimal effort, as with characters who can imbue and create arrow bundles once per rest, that's not really fair to those other players who have to hand in rat tails.
posting.php?mode=quote&f=12&p=219788
Void wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:31 am
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:44 am
DM Rex wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:06 am


I'm a DM, please refer to rule 5 of the server.
It's an exploit, it's been identified by the team as an exploit and will not be returning as a function to this server.
I'm not trying to slide by the rules or question your dm status. I'm not trying to overturn it. I'm just sincerely looking for clarity-

If the team calls it an exploit it obviously is one, now- I'm just trying to figure out why it drew what appears to be a critical eye, and how before this announcement anyone could have reasonably been expected to think it was one.

There's a difference between declaring something an exploit henceforth, and saying people were exploiting. I genuinely had no idea arrow stacks weren't meant to be split, and I don't see how anyone else could have been expected to know.

I may have been misreading your post, but my interpretation of it was basically that this was a punishment for willful cheating- what I'm looking for is why it would be presumed in bad faith.
As you know, merchants have limit on amount of gold they pay, which is around 300gp by default. So, meaning if you find an item worth 10000gp, you'll still be selling it for 300gp and have no choice for the matter.

An archer path Ranger can craft bundles of 500 damask arrows which can be further enhanced with essences and the like which drives their price up, and result will be worth over 10000gp according to nwn appraisal.

By selling the entirety of the bundle you'll get 300gp, but if you split it up you'll get entirety of the price or close to 10000gp pricepoint. That is, if you have the patience of selling 500 arrows one arrow at the time. The game also drops all kinds of "holy arrows" which cost 2 to 3k per 15 arrows, and those can also be split and sold.

The server policy seems to be not to allow the player to get rich, and hence restriction on selling arrows. The mechanical implementation doesn't feel right, however, as players can and WILL split other stackable items like potions, plus jewelry boxes and arcane scroll cases allow the same thing in automated way.

Alright, this provides me with the clarity I was looking for. It's a case of unequal opportunity, and yes, I can see the unfairness in risk levels there- although I would argue that unless someone is running a third party piece of software that macros clicking, if someone is willing to go to the physical effort of-

1: Separating 500 arrows into stacks of 1-2 arrows each - right click, enter numeric value, left click okay - 750-1500 individual clicks and commands.
2: Sell 250-500 individual stacks of arrows - Right click, move mouse, left click, move mouse to next item- 4 individual clicks/motions per sale, 1000/2000 discrete actions.
3: Profit

At this point, they are more than likely putting more time and effort, if not risk, for their gold, than quite a few other shorter methods I could think of to achieve 10K gold (including the amount of clicks necessary to generate end-game nested gear), because a lot more goes into that than just hitting the R button and being a pile richer.

To preemptively deal with the subject of macros in response, I think if you have the means to detect third-party macros executing player-side that should just be considered a hard general rule-break, as it clearly falls outside of "intended game mechanics." If you were meant to click one thousand times in a second the option would be provided for you ("Use necessary crafting points" for example). I imagine the server log indicating the sale of 500 individual items in a few moments would be a big give-away, and could probably even be automatically parsed for.

As far as loot-based magical ammo like holy arrows or teleporting bolts, these are things you have to find, and usually not in full stacks of 99, in my experience. It's not something you can get by just resting, it's loot, and you should be able to split it up to sell it for best gains - otherwise you're basically saying that no matter how long you collect that stack of 500 healing potions for, you should only ever get 300 gold for it, and that also seems unfair, to me.



Would it have been possible to only eliminate/lower the value of player-crafted arrow bundles, or would that have been significantly more work? I feel like the fact that "stack of 500" exists where it didn't in vanilla may have gotten some babies thrown out with bathwater.

Obviously it is what it is- like I said, my only archer is a sneak archer, and I don't think I've ever used a template. In terms of opportunity, all I'm doing now is spending 10 gold less per hunting trip on the regular arrows that I might occasionally decide to essence with divine/positive against undead. But I can see how this might make some people who weren't trying to take advantage of cheap tricks feel bad when it comes time to sell loot, given that there are ammo items in the loot matrix.
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