Underdark Slavery

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Aradin
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Aradin » Fri May 22, 2020 9:16 pm

While individual action regarding PCs abusing slave mechanics might be ideal, I don't think it's feasible for a small DM team with already a lot of higher-priority work to do. Automating it across-the-board *may* solve the problem (I'm not 100% sure myself) while not increasing DM workload so they can focus on things that matter more.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Skibbles » Sat May 23, 2020 4:22 am

versus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:02 pm
Slaves now require a minor reward to create.
The problem of bad slave RP speaks poorly of the players.
The resolution to the problem of locking slave RP behind a reward speaks poorly of the team.
"Everyone sucks."

That anyone can find this kind of toxic post or any of its follow-ups valid or even constructive is beyond me.

I find it pretty horrendous how quick people jump on the team for using awards as a solution without even bothering to break down not only their own opinion but what their own implied alternative solution is.

Let's at least think about it because apparently people levying this opinion can't be bothered to expand on it themselves or even show their own understanding of the discussion or even their willingness to try and understand it.

Minor award solution
Someone needs to play one character to minimum level 16 before they play a slave. It is impossible not to get the reward at this point according to the wiki.

Essentially this makes the requirement of being a slave nothing more than a basic understanding of Arelith, its role play culture, and some of the background mechanics that construct the generation of characters.

Seeing as how one of the major problems with the slavery is their sheer numbers and their uncontrolled alterial spray generation - an award tweak will immediately slow both factors down for a further look and a far greater ease in regulation after numbers inevitably thin out.

Note: For the circle 5% grinders this doesn't change anything, but 5% grinders barely role play and spend all their time grinding so this isn't the problem in the first place and it's a 'problem' well known to be far outside of slavery.

The 'team is respectable only if' solution

The team spends the next weeks watching, tracking down, and talking to every single slave/ex-slave/'outcast' character to try and tell all of them how to play - while the whole time the generation of characters continues completely unmitigated thereby creating a perpetual need to micromanage slavery by both players and DMs.

Bear in mind none of these characters are breaking any rules and could be going almost completely unreported. The solution of holding people accountable could be a massive manual undertaking without an end unless the flow is stymied.

The team is supposed to do this in addition to everything else they do every day.

Conclusion

Stop the bleeding before you perform the surgery.

Try to imagine yourself as a member of the team performing your own exhausting solution day in and day out.

Nobody wants to babysit dozens of characters across multiple timezones whether they're a player or a DM. That's how we got here in the first place.
"By this point, some of you might be wondering how drow society has survived at all.

The truth is, it can't. Drow society is absolutely and utterly nonviable."
-Drow of the Underdark, pg. 26

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat May 23, 2020 5:39 am

Skibbles wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 4:22 am
versus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:02 pm
Slaves now require a minor reward to create.
The problem of bad slave RP speaks poorly of the players.
The resolution to the problem of locking slave RP behind a reward speaks poorly of the team.
"Everyone sucks."

That anyone can find this kind of toxic post or any of its follow-ups valid or even constructive is beyond me.

I find it pretty horrendous how quick people jump on the team for using awards as a solution without even bothering to break down not only their own opinion but what their own implied alternative solution is.

Let's at least think about it because apparently people levying this opinion can't be bothered to expand on it themselves or even show their own understanding of the discussion or even their willingness to try and understand it.

Minor award solution
Someone needs to play one character to minimum level 16 before they play a slave. It is impossible not to get the reward at this point according to the wiki.

Essentially this makes the requirement of being a slave nothing more than a basic understanding of Arelith, its role play culture, and some of the background mechanics that construct the generation of characters.

Seeing as how one of the major problems with the slavery is their sheer numbers and their uncontrolled alterial spray generation - an award tweak will immediately slow both factors down for a further look and a far greater ease in regulation after numbers inevitably thin out.

Note: For the circle 5% grinders this doesn't change anything, but 5% grinders barely role play and spend all their time grinding so this isn't the problem in the first place and it's a 'problem' well known to be far outside of slavery.

The 'team is respectable only if' solution

The team spends the next weeks watching, tracking down, and talking to every single slave/ex-slave/'outcast' character to try and tell all of them how to play - while the whole time the generation of characters continues completely unmitigated thereby creating a perpetual need to micromanage slavery by both players and DMs.

Bear in mind none of these characters are breaking any rules and could be going almost completely unreported. The solution of holding people accountable could be a massive manual undertaking without an end unless the flow is stymied.

The team is supposed to do this in addition to everything else they do every day.

Conclusion

Stop the bleeding before you perform the surgery.

Try to imagine yourself as a member of the team performing your own exhausting solution day in and day out.

Nobody wants to babysit dozens of characters across multiple timezones whether they're a player or a DM. That's how we got here in the first place.
The solution was made PRECISELY so the team doesnt need to police different types of Slave-RP, because they cant really police that without limiting Slave RP. Now it's basically RPR gated (cant even call minor award an award when you have 100% chance of achieving it 2-4 days that it takes to get lvl 16) so the DM team basically gave the player base MORE agency on how slave RP should be played, by RPR-locking it. I dont see anything wrong with that, except towards those with 0-10 rpr which... have my sympathy. Saying that this speaks poorly of the team... well... that's Arelith for you. You dont have to like it. When I DM a team of teenagers and (out of all of them) just one player decides they dont like my perception of the lore or how I DM, they can go play elsewhere.

About the portal. There's no rule that says you are now a surfacer because you're a free man. The idea that an ex-slave should suddenly lose portal access is... strange.. Maybe it's the right thing to do in this situation but it's going to screw people who never even wanted to leave Andunour after being freed so I'm not in favor of that one. They should keep it, and now that starting as a slave isnt free-be, that's just Fine.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Kuma » Sat May 23, 2020 5:41 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:39 am
About the portal. There's no rule that says you are now a surfacer because you're a free man. The idea that an ex-slave should suddenly lose portal access is... strange.. Maybe it's the right thing to do in this situation but it's going to screw people who never even wanted to leave Andunour after being freed so I'm not in favor of that one. They should keep it, and now that starting as a slave isnt free-be, that's just Fine.
Then they can speak to the DMs about being made into a real outcast.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat May 23, 2020 5:52 am

Kuma wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:41 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:39 am
About the portal. There's no rule that says you are now a surfacer because you're a free man. The idea that an ex-slave should suddenly lose portal access is... strange.. Maybe it's the right thing to do in this situation but it's going to screw people who never even wanted to leave Andunour after being freed so I'm not in favor of that one. They should keep it, and now that starting as a slave isnt free-be, that's just Fine.
Then they can speak to the DMs about being made into a real outcast.
But they havent done anything to deserve being tagged as Outcasts by surfacer NPCs, etc etc? But I do agree with you that the number of freed-slaves which opt to stay in Andunour will be low enough for this issue to be handled in a case by case manner.

Another thing to consider. These portals are saved on the character's name along with god knows how many other things you could easily break by adding mechanics that lose you portals you already have. I can imagine this is already in the cooking but is just not easy to do.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by satan » Sat May 23, 2020 6:27 am

Just to clarify, former slaves can not fully use restricted UD portals. They can go to them, but they can not use them to teleport out.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Itikar » Sat May 23, 2020 3:35 pm

In my opinion this change with the requirement of the award was the natural consequence of the change to Outcast, especially given the behavior observed in the days following that change. That is, the mere fact slaves were used by a sizable number of people to essentially play something pretty close to an Outcast, if not an outright substitute for it.

Right now, with all the faults of the award system, at least who starts a slave character will have some experience with the server and a basic level of roleplay. Furthermore the necessity to grind a character at least to level 16 in order to start as a slave will decrease the appeal of exploiting the slavery system to have an easier leveling. I doubt this will deter everybody or that it will make everybody warm up to the idea of having a slave, but I think the potential is more positive than negative.

Still, I would be cautious to frame this as restricting slave RP behind an award, because it is my understanding that in-game slavery is still essentially unrestricted. For the better or worse.

Better because it allows a wider array of characters to be slaves, like those cool halfling slaves I have seen around lately. Worse because it does not fix it being used as a workaround for playing races normally not allowed in the Underdark, like elves, or to use them to easily access racial productions such as moonblades or elven mail. But I am afraid in this latter case it is not so much a problem of the slavery system but rather a problem inherent to the crafting system. Or at least of item restrictions, such as drow being able to use the above mentioned moonblades. But that is a different topic so I won't add more here beyond this necessary mention.

Overall, however, I believe restricting the creation of Slave characters with the requirement of a minor award is a step in the right direction. And I say this even as someone who is not particularly fond of the award system as a whole.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Bees in Space » Sat May 23, 2020 4:07 pm

Random shot-in-the-dark idea: restrict the slave background to commoner pcs. No mechanical "downsides" other than those inherent to the class, just a clear indicator of the power dynamic and what your goals should be.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Arigard » Sat May 23, 2020 4:37 pm

A 'change in RP culture' does not solve mechanical issues. Many people have been making slave characters simply because of the benefits, it's got nothing to do with the RP. Mechanics back up systems in the world and give them rules that we as characters can then use to solidify role play. When those rules and structures do not work the way they should, it bleeds into the RP and begins to break the immersion of the world. Although I feel there stills needs more to be done & Kumas ideas were great, as a temporary measure making it require a reward at least makes people think and require being around the server for long enough to at least know what being a slave should mean.

There is no reason why players should have to rely on the goodwill of social RP for something like this when there is the possibility for mechanical tools to facilitate the RP. The issue with social RP is that it's open to interpretation and it quickly blurs the line between what should and shouldn't happen based on those interpreting it. That's fine up to a point with certain elements of the world and things you control about your character (Their appearence/background/mentality), but there are things that simply should be mechanically enforced because the exceptions to these rules are so rarely seen and it begins to undermine entire structures within the world.

Slavery, languages known/not known, Monster races having trouble on the surface (light sensitivity etc), Alignment restrictions for classes/gods. These are all things that require mechanical solutions because otherwise, if left to the player-base there will always be those players who when left unchecked try to create a 'special' character that is immune to these rules because of 'I want to be unique' reasons.

Ultimately, the lore of the world is there for a reason. Races being restricted to certain areas is there for a reason. Slavery is slavery and should have negatives that balance out any positives it provides, because players finding loopholes in this system is something that will naturally happen if the mechanics are not enforced.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat May 23, 2020 5:10 pm

There's a lot of good points being made here. Let me get something streight.

I don't particlarly like this solution either. I wish it wasn't neccesary, but as others (thank you Skibbles) have pointed out, it was more or less the best solution avaiable at this time.

The other options basically came down to... four catagories

1) Remove Slaves entirely: This is not gonna happen if I can possibly avoid it. I personally really like the slavery system, for all it's flaws and I think it'd be a real shame to see it go. I respect that others feel differently, and appreciate that it's not without it's flaws, but there you have it.

2) Have the DMs police all slaves for roleplay standards: Not going to happen except in the most extreme casers. It's far too much work appart from anything, and for another - (at least to an extent) - this is kinda the other pcs job.

3) Nerf Slaves hugely, which has massive implications in other areas, can lead so some disturbing trends, and will just make slaves extremely unpopular to play. This is, to me, very much a 'last resort.'

4) Something Complex: For example Kuma's idea which IMO is pretty darn awsome and is something I think, dependent on how player trends go, is something we may look at implementing. But will take a whilte to implement I imagine, and this seemed like a relitivly urgent situation.

This option is simple, streight forward and also - I hope - easy to reverse if need be. It was quick to implement, and I hope will both ensure a better quality of rp, make sure new players don't get involved in a scene that would be uh, difficult for them, and finally mean that some investment is generally needed to play a underdarker human. Even if it's just a minor award. I'm hoping that this will mean we see les (but still a few) slaves in the underdark, and hopefully a slightly better quality of rp too.

Also - I'm sure some smart people will be muttering, 'Oh but you can just be captured In Play, and organize that ooc- and thus avoid spending the award.'

Well yes, that's true. And that sort of thing hasn't been policed at all in the past. And I don't intend to ask the team to start activly policing it now - unless we do start seeing a lot of human slaves who have been 'mysteriously' collared at a low level popping up, and the same situation continuing.

If we do see a lot of that then we will have to come down hard on it, either by changing the system even more (please no) Or by instigating extreme punitive action on those doing it.

So please, if you're soul reason for being 'captured' is to avoid having to spend a minor award? Don't.

Finally
satan wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:27 am
Just to clarify, former slaves can not fully use restricted UD portals. They can go to them, but they can not use them to teleport out.
Honestly this is a bug, and one that needs to be changed. Ex slaves should have /no/ access to hub/treadstone portals, in our out. I hope we can fix that at some point.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Skibbles » Sun May 24, 2020 4:03 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:10 pm
satan wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:27 am
Just to clarify, former slaves can not fully use restricted UD portals. They can go to them, but they can not use them to teleport out.
Honestly this is a bug, and one that needs to be changed. Ex slaves should have /no/ access to hub/treadstone portals, in our out. I hope we can fix that at some point.
I didn't know this! Fixing this bug might actually put a stop to at least a portion of the issues we're seeing. Hopefully it's an easy tweak.

Otherwise I don't think slaves need to be removed. Despite some poor examples I think it overall serves up a fine amount of great role play (and like all good things, most don't talk about it) whether through well rped captures or just people that really enjoy the master/slave dynamic.

Nerfing slaves could see them relegated to mule status and that would all but end it for a select few. It's already crazy hard not to turn your slave into a mule when there are limited options for the slave in the moment and this kills slave players fast.

Like the outcast change I think it's a good middle road to see how things even out. (though personally I hope to see more outcasts again in the future)
"By this point, some of you might be wondering how drow society has survived at all.

The truth is, it can't. Drow society is absolutely and utterly nonviable."
-Drow of the Underdark, pg. 26

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun May 24, 2020 5:13 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:10 pm
Also - I'm sure some smart people will be muttering, 'Oh but you can just be captured In Play, and organize that ooc- and thus avoid spending the award.'

Well yes, that's true. And that sort of thing hasn't been policed at all in the past. And I don't intend to ask the team to start activly policing it now - unless we do start seeing a lot of human slaves who have been 'mysteriously' collared at a low level popping up, and the same situation continuing.

If we do see a lot of that then we will have to come down hard on it, either by changing the system even more (please no) Or by instigating extreme punitive action on those doing it.

So please, if you're soul reason for being 'captured' is to avoid having to spend a minor award? Don't.
I havent really thought about that until you've mentioned it (probably because I've never played a slave, captured or created) and uh... I really struggle to see how such a thing can even be policed at all.

We WILL see a rise in captured slaves, probably in relatively low level because most people just dont find the 'twist in the story' of becoming a slave very fun to do in epic lvls and you're also stronger and it's harder to catch you in higher lvls.

How can the DM in the situation can be confident that THIS particular player, out of all new slaves out there, is doing it for mechanical benefits only, with the past few pages of this tread in mind? I understand that the current solution was made precisely to NOT make slavery RP one dimensional with a how-to-do guide.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here because, again, my lack of experience with the slavery system. Just wondering how that'd ever work.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Kuma » Sun May 24, 2020 5:20 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:52 am
Kuma wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:41 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:39 am
About the portal. There's no rule that says you are now a surfacer because you're a free man. The idea that an ex-slave should suddenly lose portal access is... strange.. Maybe it's the right thing to do in this situation but it's going to screw people who never even wanted to leave Andunour after being freed so I'm not in favor of that one. They should keep it, and now that starting as a slave isnt free-be, that's just Fine.
Then they can speak to the DMs about being made into a real outcast.
But they havent done anything to deserve being tagged as Outcasts by surfacer NPCs, etc etc? But I do agree with you that the number of freed-slaves which opt to stay in Andunour will be low enough for this issue to be handled in a case by case manner.
choosing to stay in andunor would make you an outcast, tbh. anyway i always thought that portal usage came from the collar in the case of slaves. freedom should remove that unless you then choose to live there. if you're a free man you're either a surfacer or an outcast, and should choose accordingly.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Red_Wharf » Sun May 24, 2020 5:48 am

Itikar wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:35 pm
In my opinion this change with the requirement of the award was the natural consequence of the change to Outcast, especially given the behavior observed in the days following that change. That is, the mere fact slaves were used by a sizable number of people to essentially play something pretty close to an Outcast, if not an outright substitute for it.
Can't the changes to Outcasts and Slaves just be undone and then we forget this all ever happened? At this point it feels like the server need to come up with more and more elaborate solutions to problems that shouldn't exist at all.

Outcasts were restricted (only god knows why), people began making slaves to be eventually freed and played like Outcasts. Slaves were then restricted, they now need an award too. Now I guess people will start creating Surface characters and move them down to Andunor in order for them to be enslaved and eventually freed so that people can finally play the Outcasts they so much want to. How is that being fixed, though? Are we restricting the slave collar to characters with more than ten levels, twenty levels? But once people find a way to bypass that too, what other solution are we coming up with? And what comes next?

My point is, people like playing Outcasts. They have been playing Outcasts for years. Outcasts are fun. Then one day it was decided that people couldn't play Outcasts anymore without first playing a Warlock with Gift of Humility to level 16 and rolling them for a Normal Award. I feel like undoing the Outcast award update and eventually updating the slavery system with Kuma's idea would magically solve everything.

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Skibbles » Sun May 24, 2020 6:20 am

Hoping not to derail the subject too much by talking outcasts but it does seem clear to me that the outcast change directly contributed to the rise in multiple slavery problems alongside a general plummet in player count.

I don't have the actual numbers like the Admins probably do but some hours in my playtime have so few on the IG player list there isn't even a scrollbar. I can't remember that ever being the case pre-nohoomanz.

The UD has decent numbers on the weekends but at this stage there's no doubt the numbers are steadily falling overall when compared to the other servers at any given time. With the needed slave change to further reduce numbers its going to tighten up significantly.
"By this point, some of you might be wondering how drow society has survived at all.

The truth is, it can't. Drow society is absolutely and utterly nonviable."
-Drow of the Underdark, pg. 26

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun May 24, 2020 6:23 am

Kuma wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:20 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:52 am
Kuma wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 5:41 am


Then they can speak to the DMs about being made into a real outcast.
But they havent done anything to deserve being tagged as Outcasts by surfacer NPCs, etc etc? But I do agree with you that the number of freed-slaves which opt to stay in Andunour will be low enough for this issue to be handled in a case by case manner.
choosing to stay in andunor would make you an outcast, tbh. anyway i always thought that portal usage came from the collar in the case of slaves. freedom should remove that unless you then choose to live there. if you're a free man you're either a surfacer or an outcast, and should choose accordingly.
Sounds legit. Still award worthy.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Drowboy » Sun May 24, 2020 6:24 am

I mean, a grip of people basically said that would be the case. Reward outcasts (broken for months, so 'no' outcasts) would lead to fake-outcast-slaves and a lower player count because while people do want to play in the UD, a good number of them don't want to do it as an ugly model/with specifically enforced race-based RP.

Stopping people from playing humans in the UD was never going to force them into playing drow or orogs.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Kuma » Sun May 24, 2020 6:40 am

Drowboy wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:24 am
Stopping people from playing humans in the UD was never going to force them into playing drow or orogs.
i want this tattooed
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Skibbles » Sun May 24, 2020 7:04 am

I agree. If I came off as surprised at this fact that wasn't the intention. Though now that outcasts have been fixed we may need to wait a few more weeks to see the actual result (though it's possible that it being broken so long has compromised the momentum).

In any case their return will bring with it some sorely missed tensions, numbers, RP, and intrigue.
"By this point, some of you might be wondering how drow society has survived at all.

The truth is, it can't. Drow society is absolutely and utterly nonviable."
-Drow of the Underdark, pg. 26

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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Baron Saturday » Sun May 24, 2020 4:46 pm

Kuma wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:40 am
Drowboy wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:24 am
Stopping people from playing humans in the UD was never going to force them into playing drow or orogs.
i want this tattooed
Hard agree. I think a (probably unintended) consequence of award-locking outcasts and slaves will be a drastic decrease in new characters whose classes have Obvious Evil abilities (i.e. warlock, hexblade, blackguard and pale master). Playing any of these classes with a surface start is often an order of magnitude harder than playing them as an outcast, as you're in constant danger of revealing yourself to folks who Strongly Disapprove of your class.

This can be fun for folks looking for a challenge, but more often I've simply found it frustrating and isolating, as I end up either soloing while looking over my shoulder every five seconds, or trying to play a class without actually utilizing some core mechanics for fear of a Righteous Spanking.
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun May 24, 2020 4:59 pm

I think this is a very valid concern, and I even share it. But there is another way it could go -

If people; end up having to play their warlock/hexblade/PM concepts on the surface more, then there's more of them. If there's more of them, then they can band together, and work to finding some form of foothold there.

There's nothing saying, for example, that a Blackguard, or a Warlock, or even a Pale Master can't rule Cordor. I mean the NPCs won't like it much, but if they get voted in - then they get voted in.

So perhaps (and I confess this could be me being way too optemistic here) actualy open up more possiblities for conflict on the surface, as the underdark option becomes less easy, on an ooc sense.

Again - I could be far too hopeful here. But wouldn't it be awsome if that happened?
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

TimeAdept
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by TimeAdept » Sun May 24, 2020 7:37 pm

they're not doing that though, and this is partly because by design there is no foothold for them to be able to do so.

the only "evil" guildhouses are: 1 - Sencliff, 2 - Abyss (prominently controlled by the Underdark due to its location), 3 - Banite only

Gloom and Darrowdeep can't be used due to settlement ties, Sencliff isn't useful because it's in Sencliff, the Abyss one as we all already know is basically UD only and not in a conflict zone where it can "radiate presence", which is essential for causing conflict.

This leaves Minmir Castle, which is in a perfect place, but is, irrationally, "Banite Only", which massively constricts the sort of character concepts and factions that can form around it.

no amount of the proposed "overt evils" will ever actually take over Cordor or Guldorand, not without a level of influx that would be looked upon suspiciously both by DMs and by Players. This is doubly true in Cordor, but goes for most everywhere else, too. The last time this actually came close the group ended up having to go to the UD anyways and run the Sharps because they got found out and summarily run out of Cordor like 3 days after they lost their election. The other time was the recent Banites which, again, read above - get to have an actual castle. That's the foothold.

I don't count the recent Magocracy - that's wildly successful but clearly not the sort of thing being discussed here.

The opportunities and possibilities for conflict on the surface can't open up as long as there are no actual footholds for it to occur. Hell, Sencliff doesn't even have a permanent boat anymore, when most every 'good'-ish aligned settlement does, and Sencliff is the pirate city.

1: Make the Banite Castle open to any evil, let it be "attuned" by the guildmaster to whatever got they want.
1a: Let them hire henchmen like the Darrowdeep/Gloom castles. This lets them look imposing, like a presence.
1b: let the Radiant Heart do the same. That area should feel like the conflict zone it is! Minmir is ancient wargrounds, to this day - but it never feels like there's a conflict. We should see Radhart and Minmir-Army NPCs fighting each other!

2: Allow factions to bid on Gloom and Darrowdeep. I know the brokerage thing is supposed to be for settlements, but Gloom especially is so strategically far from any settlement it becomes really difficult to work it in. If you freed it, especially, to any faction bidding, and lowered the time from 5 RL months to like 3, I think you might have something.

3: Add a permanently ownage ship back to Sencliff, put the Snitch back on it, and give it grappling hooks. It's silly that the Pirate Cove doesn't have a ship as capable at piracy as the dwarves, Cordor, or even Guldorand, a logging/fishing town. (I know it has a hak update but we're speaking of the last several RL years here.)

4: Give Sencliff some sort of token presence at the Crow's Nest based on who owns th Guildhouse or the theoretical permanent ship. This allows them to "radiate presence" as above, like the Minmir Castle.

5: Revert the Outcast and Slave changes, doing both at once will solve a good chunk of problems. Outcasts were critical to making the server feel connected. There's a topic in General about this right now so I don't want to go into it too much.

Drowboy
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Drowboy » Sun May 24, 2020 8:02 pm

What TimeAdept said is correct, but I'll add another beat: No ability for evil to take, hold, and radiate out from surface settlements was compounded by the destruction of Wharftown, which in a solid chunk of people's mind served as, basically, 'the evil fishing village.' The incredibly public destruction of which (over, well, that's a matter of server rumor, but the most common refrain is 'problem players') did, I think, two things:

1. Dipped morale for that sort of 'take over, hold, and use a settlement for evil gain' RP, maybe permanently
2. Reduced an axis point for island politics, making it easier for groups that are more likely to work together, read 'goodies and non-shady neutrals' to form semi-unassailable footholds due to having one less point of failure for Big Anti-Evil Island-wide Coalition stuff.

The big coalition and the fact that all of the 'evil' classes have big obvious 'I'm evil!!!' tells from level 1 (warlock eyes, evil sword glows, fiendish summons- and you can claim all you want 1 and 2 wont get metagamed, they'll get metagamed every time) compounds into sending people downstairs to Andunor if they want to level without getting roflstomped at level 4 by a bunch of LGs. Even if it doesn't happen nearly as much as the reaction implies, the perception is going to be there.
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

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Skibbles
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by Skibbles » Mon May 25, 2020 5:12 am

We might need a new thread for this tangent.
"By this point, some of you might be wondering how drow society has survived at all.

The truth is, it can't. Drow society is absolutely and utterly nonviable."
-Drow of the Underdark, pg. 26

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DM Rex
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Re: Underdark Slavery

Post by DM Rex » Mon May 25, 2020 6:24 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:37 pm
no amount of the proposed "overt evils" will ever actually take over Cordor or Guldorand, not without a level of influx that would be looked upon suspiciously both by DMs...
The DM Team has no stake or influence when it comes to the actions of evil PCs that make moves on government positions in any city. If the manpower, the actions are there, and not cheated or exploited to obtain, then the power is within the victor's hands.

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