Greater Shadow Conjuration

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Complex
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Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Complex » Fri May 22, 2020 2:45 am

Hello! I was testing this spell and noticed that it basically bumps Web DC by 4, which I think is a bit too much considering it doesn't factor in Spellcraft for the save (the regular Web spell doesn't either).

"When a spell allows a saving throw, the DC is determined by the spell level, the caster's primary ability modifier (for the ability on which their spells are based), and the caster's feats, as follows:

DC = 10 + spell level + ability modifier + feat modifier."

Calculation for Web: 10+2+14+6= 32

10 as a base, 2 from Web's spell circle, 14 as an average Wizard Intelligence modifier at level 30 and 6 from ESF Conjuration. 32 DC (33 with a Greater Int) is the highest DC a Wizard with ESF Conjuration can achieve at level 30, with a 'reasonable' build.

Calculation for Greater Shadow Conjuration (Web) 10+6+14+6=36

10 as a base, 6 from Greater Shadow Conjuration's spell circle, 14 as an average Wizard Intelligence modifiter at level 30 and 6 from ESF Illusion. 36 DC (37 with a Greater Int and 40 as a Shadowmage( is the highest DC a Wizard with ESF Illusion can achieve at level 30, with a 'reasonable' build.

Giving Web a DC of 40 (or 36, or 37) when Spellcraft doesn't even count towards the save, even if FoM can counter it, is definetely too much. Not only 40 on a Reflex save is quite high, but Web is an AoE entanglement that I am quite sure can also bug people's DEX mod (lowering it) if they happen to fail two saves in a row until they modify their DEX stat, and, finally, FoM is breachable. Base reflex save for some high dex builds with cha saves included is around 32, so the amount of builds a 40 DC web could catch off guard (and bug) is far too many. Mages seem to rely on too many gimmicks as of late, and the Time Stop change sort of cemented it. I suggest replacing Web with something else (not Grease) and moving away from making 'complex' (haha) spells far too powerful.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Apokriphos » Fri May 22, 2020 4:32 am

Before the spell change, Greater Shadow Conjuration: Web DC was 3 points higher then it is currently. It had been that way for years.

Currently, the SM bonus for this spell isn't working. However, even when it is fixed, the DC for SM Epic Focused Illusionists will be 37+2 = 39, in your example, not 40.

Save-reliant Spells in Arelith PvP are extremely weak in comparison to other 'lower magic' servers. Thanks to custom dweomercraft, and with the testimony of many individuals in #Buildsnmechanics channel, PCs can quite easily build so that they are basically Immune to nearly all DC spells in the game, without an ounce of spell resist. Its an issue that I believe IG and team are currently looking at.
Last edited by Apokriphos on Fri May 22, 2020 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by ReverentBlade » Fri May 22, 2020 5:21 am

And what you can't gear against (EDK, Timestop, Gsanc, ect. ect) they'll whine for nerfs for :)

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Complex » Fri May 22, 2020 5:28 am

I actually am saying wizards should get buffed in general, and I didn’t like the Time Stop change either! I most certainly don’t have a secret agenda against mages. There should just be less gimmicky tools (maybe with the saves thing you linked, Apokriphos, we will get something cool).

About the example: 18 starting Intelligence and one Greater Intelligence should give 40 DC, and all I am saying is that Web (considering how strong it is and how buggy it could get) may not be the best option to get amped up like this.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Biolab00 » Fri May 22, 2020 5:39 am

Complex wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:28 am
I actually am saying wizards should get buffed in general, and I didn’t like the Time Stop change either! I most certainly don’t have a secret agenda against mages. There should just be less gimmicky tools (maybe with the saves thing you linked, Apokriphos, we will get something cool).

About the example: 18 starting Intelligence and one Greater Intelligence should give 40 DC, and all I am saying is that Web (considering how strong it is and how buggy it could get) may not be the best option to get amped up like this.
Other than reflex save, Freedom of movement spell also negate it. Hence, if it's a PVP scenario, your 1st spell must be a breach spell and follow up ( usually your most potent spell ). It's very unlikely people will consider throwing web spell, unless you're fleeing.
Even then, experienced mages will just need to time stop and he can chase up easily to hold you up.

In fact, web isn't the usual spell to stop a person, usually they cast mindfog, followed by a dominate monster after they have mord you.

If it's a face to face battle, it's even more unlikely the webspell will be casted.
And even DC of 38 isn't that impressive either... It's very easy to hit above 30saves for reflex, not included spellcraft, of course, and yes, even as a barbarian.
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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Complex » Fri May 22, 2020 5:50 am

I’d say 38 is a big number for many builds. Sure, you can invest on gear and feats or whatever else, but it comes at a cost. I am also certain that this spell is not the ultimate tool employed by all mages and I have went over FoM countering it as well. My point here is how Web is not the type of spell that should get its DC skyrocketed, for it is both strong and buggy.

Again, I am not asking for mages to get deleted, and they should certainly see some buffs after the Time Stop change, but this spell should be swapped from GSC.

Face to face battles are a whole different topic, and wizards as they stand would have serious issues to kill most people for reasons that would exist with or without this spell changed.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Biolab00 » Fri May 22, 2020 6:13 am

Complex wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:50 am
I’d say 38 is a big number for many builds. Sure, you can invest on gear and feats or whatever else, but it comes at a cost. I am also certain that this spell is not the ultimate tool employed by all mages and I have went over FoM countering it as well. My point here is how Web is not the type of spell that should get its DC skyrocketed, for it is both strong and buggy.

Again, I am not asking for mages to get deleted, and they should certainly see some buffs after the Time Stop change, but this spell should be swapped from GSC.

Face to face battles are a whole different topic, and wizards as they stand would have serious issues to kill most people for reasons that would exist with or without this spell changed.
Now... This seems rather silly here. You have to also know that Greater Spell Focus : Enchantment gives infinite Blindness / deafness.
It's very relevant regardless of any dungeon content because the DC36 at infinite cost and once blinded, the monster is a free kill.

This isn't the sort of spell that you need to ask for a nerf because there will be plenty that requires nerf if this spell get approved.
I am simply giving 1 example, there's many many more that i can possibly give but i don't feel it's relevant since it's not game breaking and not even worth using in PVP unless it's a strategized battle but the impact isn't that great since the point of that spell isn't the DC but the AOE slow regardless of saves or not.
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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Complex » Fri May 22, 2020 1:42 pm

Blindness/Deafness is fortitude, counts spellcraft for the save and is not an AoE spam. Web can literally bug someone’s DEX mod and having it at DCs 37-40 is unhealthy.

After the Time Stop change the role of mages in PvP has changed and using this spell on someone who is unprepared could 100% pay off. The only issue I have with bringing 1v1s up is the fact that mages have 0 kill potential because of healing and high saves and high AC and pray and gresto and a long list of etceteras, but this type of spells are not what we should have.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Fri May 22, 2020 2:35 pm

I believe ive heard it mentioned that heighten spell may end up being a thing sometime in the future. If thats the case I think GSC wont really be an issue as every spell may potentially be able to heighten its DC

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by magistrasa » Fri May 22, 2020 5:38 pm

It sounds like the main concern here shouldn't be "Web is too strong," but instead that "Web is bugged." To which I'd then agree with Complex - if the spell's able to be cheesed by people to drop DEX into single digits, that's certainly worth some concern, and if the team doesn't think it can be remedied, maybe the spell ought to be replaced with an effect of equal strength. Like Grease, I guess?

That being said, I agree with the crowd saying the spell is otherwise fine as it is (were it working as intended). Web can easily be walked around when you see it coming, and when you're trapped an FoM pot/wand will grant total immunity for a not-insignificant amount of time. Take out the cheese potential and there's often much better spells to be casting - from what I've seen, Web mostly just takes up a special place in group PvP scenarios. A hilarious place. It's like the spell version of a clown's creampie to the face.
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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Complex » Fri May 22, 2020 6:18 pm

That's the thing. The spell itself is reasonable as a 2nd circle Aoe entanglement, but when you amp up its DC and consider the fact that it can bug people, it's not only stronger but way more dangerous. Grease is already part of Shadow Conjuration which is why I didn't want it to be replaced with that, since we would be repeating spells thrice, but it would certainly be better than what we currently have. I am just advocating for these type of spells not to be around too much so we can minimize the cheese, is all.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by magistrasa » Fri May 22, 2020 6:26 pm

Complex wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:18 pm
Grease is already part of Shadow Conjuration
Imagine, me, magistrasa, career Sharran and shadow mage afficionado, embarrassing myself in front of the entire internet by forgetting what spells are already part of Shadow Conjuration. I'll see myself out, and into the trash.
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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Aniel » Fri May 22, 2020 7:56 pm

Apokriphos wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:32 am
Most players want their enemies weak and themselves strong.

Some are just more upfront about it.
Wow.

To start with, I don't have any strong opinions on this change. It's not something I particularly care about. But I have to say: What's with the attitude? It's extremely inappropriate and kind of ridiculous to interject into a feedback thread that's to provide the development team with ideas and to berate people. It's actually because of this exact type of behavior that suggestions aren't something that can be replied to.

I'm not going to say that your feedback isn't valuable, but no one cares about anything you have to say when you approach people with insults. If you want to refute a point, sticking to a good presentation helps immensely.

On this thread, and really all future threads, please try to avoid attacking people for offering their own feedback.
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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Apokriphos » Fri May 22, 2020 8:01 pm

Aniel wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:56 pm
Wow.

To start with, I don't have any strong opinions on this change. It's not something I particularly care about. But I have to say: What's with the attitude? It's extremely inappropriate and kind of ridiculous to interject into a feedback thread that's to provide the development team with ideas and to berate people. It's actually because of this exact type of behavior that suggestions aren't something that can be replied to.

I'm not going to say that your feedback isn't valuable, but no one cares about anything you have to say when you approach people with insults. If you want to refute a point, sticking to a good presentation helps immensely.

On this thread, and really all future threads, please try to avoid attacking people for offering their own feedback.
I apologize if calling attention to this was considered to be offensive.

Feedback on spells, classes, new features, areas, and abilities generally cause varying viewpoints. On occasion some players act adamantly in a particular way based on their own beliefs. I think open lines of communication regarding these issues is helpful even if a particular players perspective isn't commonly agreed to be the correct one.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Jordenk » Sat May 23, 2020 7:37 pm

The spell DC and effect hardly seems too powerful, it’s easily countered if not simply avoidable, requires a fairly high spell slot for what it does and is definitely weaker than the alternative options one might choose cast to instead in pvp combat for most PCs.

Nerfing it would remove it from the current position of, “maybe I’ll use it... it would be funny to get a win using Web” to relative obscurity and mostly uselessness at higher level pvp.

Given the save heavy meta, prevalence of dex based PCs with high reflex and evasion, as well as easy access to FoM for every PC (and the consistent use of FoM due to other effects that may threaten a PC), it’s just useful enough to be considered somewhere in the middle of the list as part of any attack plan from my perspective.

I say this playing a pc who is a DC casters ideal target, with pathetic will and fort saves. It means I have learned lesser mind blank, FoM wand and Shadow Shield are top priorities when entering combat. They are quick slotted and used often (plus a pray usually). It’s scary to go against but that’s ok with me, it’s my PCs one glaring weakness in an otherwise quite dangerous build. With exceptions, most will have such a hole in their defenses, luckily we have tools to fill those gaps!

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Biolab00 » Sun May 24, 2020 5:09 am

Complex wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 1:42 pm
Blindness/Deafness is fortitude, counts spellcraft for the save and is not an AoE spam. Web can literally bug someone’s DEX mod and having it at DCs 37-40 is unhealthy.

After the Time Stop change the role of mages in PvP has changed and using this spell on someone who is unprepared could 100% pay off. The only issue I have with bringing 1v1s up is the fact that mages have 0 kill potential because of healing and high saves and high AC and pray and gresto and a long list of etceteras, but this type of spells are not what we should have.
I truly have to disagree with you. Mind you, i'm using a Monk and also a Dex user, I'm heavily affected by Web spell as well, because if caught, it results in negative dex modifer hence , all my AC is gone. That's why, i'm being very objective here.

For high-tier PVE content, freedom spell is almost a must hence, even if it's not always turn on, it's safe to assume that in a party, it's almost always there. And because it last turns per level, it's actually considered a long lasting buff.
And being caught unprepared, is a joke. Since, you will not likely choose this spell as a pre-emp spell to cast, even if it's meant to be a BS. If you are a single person, meeting a group, in say, Underdark. You should always be vigilant and cast Greater Sanc to flee or just flee immediately. Never fight against overwhelming odds.

Next, we have already covered saving throws, it's generally easy to be high for reflex, as i've mentioned in my earlier post.

Now, I will skip on the infinite blindness spell part because it's redundant to debate on this with web spell when 1 is infinite and the other, probably only have a few slot of spell.

In the sense of the Web spell, when you're webbed, it's logical to think that you are being bind from moving hence, it's impossible to be dexterous. This is logic and unless you want "So-called Balance" over "Logic".

Next, we talk about DC spell. NWN uses the system of DC10 + Spell level + Spell Foci + Modifier(Attribute)
We have to understand that the majority of the DC comes from Spell Foci + Modifier ( which refers to the prowess of the Mage/Caster ).
Hence, it's logical to assume that because it's casted by a highly skilled Mage, it's meant to be powerful.
You will just need to look through the spell and you will also find certain spell that are useful in Low-tier magic level (Which i am not going to advise) and that the DC also be jacked up pretty high due to the way the system works ( Which is logical, since a more competent Mage vs a less lower-leveled Mage. )

Edit : Moreover, your high DC of 38 is because it's casted from a Tier 6 spell. Come on, it's Tier 6. Even if the original spell is a tier 2 spell, the spell casted is a Tier 6 version. Please don't forget Tier 6 spell slot and Tier 7 spell slot is extremely important for mages.
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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Complex » Sun May 24, 2020 5:37 am

I’m not saying GSC Web is the most powerful spell to ever exist, I’m just saying it’s both strong and buggy. If it is not a big deal and no one cares for it, why not swap it? Evidently the DEX mod bug is the most dangerous part of the spell with FoM countering everything else it does, so why give people the chance to cast it at 37-40 DC? The less chances for cheese to happen, the better.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Biolab00 » Sun May 24, 2020 5:44 am

Complex wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:37 am
I’m not saying GSC Web is the most powerful spell to ever exist, I’m just saying it’s both strong and buggy. If it is not a big deal and no one cares for it, why not swap it? Evidently the DEX mod bug is the most dangerous part of the spell with FoM countering everything else it does, so why give people the chance to cast it at 37-40 DC? The less chances for cheese to happen, the better.
It's not a bug, dude.
It's Logic.
Don't tell me that you can swing your leg, make evasive movement, when you're being bind by web.
And changing spell part, up the developer, I've no issue.
As I mention, it's a tier 6 spell. Please don't forget the meaning of this tier level.

Then again, mages don't need anymore buff. Holy, the best pvp is sorcerer. Wizard ain't half-bad and also have the most skill points due to int modifier. More buff, seriously no. If you're weak, it's because you're doing it wrong.
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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Chosen Son » Sun May 24, 2020 8:29 am

In a div/save meta, with evo combo neutered with the TS nerf, and ready access to heal potions, gresto, and -pray, if mages are overpowered it is only because a good portion of the player-base is running a combination of inefficiently played, sub-optimal, and/or under-geared characters. A key mage pvp skill is knowing or being able to judge which characters fall into this category, and are likely to still be vulnerable to your spells outside of niche circumstances, and which characters are properly geared, and played so you dont waste spells and actions needlessly.

Assuming opponents with good builds, player (not character) skill and experience, and proper gearing, a mage is left with less and less options, other then contributing mords, and mass haste. This is the yardstick against which to measure a build or class, by asking "Will it do well against efficiently played, properly geared, and solid meta relevant builds?". Non standard wizards, like spellsword have more, and better options however, and the above applies alot less for them.

Also, web being a lvl 6 spell, makes it better because the dc is 4 higher, just like grease is made better by being 3 dc higher off shadow conjuration. Them being higher spell level is an advantage, not a disadvantage. In pnp you need a metamagic feat (heighten spell) to raise spell level and dc correspondingly. Exactly what spells do you have at lvl 6, that you cannot spare a spellslot or two for greater shadow conjuration? There are many amazing lvl 6 spells, but you want almost all of them metamagiced, not cast without.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Jordenk » Mon May 25, 2020 6:30 pm

Chosen Son wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:29 am
In a div/save meta, with evo combo neutered with the TS nerf, and ready access to heal potions, gresto, and -pray, if mages are overpowered it is only because a good portion of the player-base is running a combination of inefficiently played, sub-optimal, and/or under-geared characters. A key mage pvp skill is knowing or being able to judge which characters fall into this category, and are likely to still be vulnerable to your spells outside of niche circumstances, and which characters are properly geared, and played so you dont waste spells and actions needlessly.

Assuming opponents with good builds, player (not character) skill and experience, and proper gearing, a mage is left with less and less options, other then contributing mords, and mass haste. This is the yardstick against which to measure a build or class, by asking "Will it do well against efficiently played, properly geared, and solid meta relevant builds?". Non standard wizards, like spellsword have more, and better options however, and the above applies alot less for them.
This 100%! Mages are powerful and in a good place, in fact I’m pretty happy with the overall balance of the server atm despite a few things (but that’s another rabbit hole). That said I think the meta favors melee/archer with buffs or div dip with high saves, IMO they’re probably the top tier atm. The burst dmg and ongoing dmg output with crits, high hp and saves, access to most wards make the dmg output per round far more than any alternative. It’s basically impossible to finish someone off with a mage without the TS combo with pray, unbeatable saves and heal pots. That’s ok, the mage offers immense utility (summons dispel, debuff etc).

This convo is important to be considered in context of overall balance, as well as the specifics of this one spell. Some might disagree but right now the meta is not actually not casters, it’s what I’d call “buffed physical damage.” Granted not everyone is power building for lvl 30 gear optimized pvp, but that seems to be the “benchmark of balance” given it represents the actual total power potential of a build that will be achieved on the server.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by BHR55 » Tue May 26, 2020 1:53 pm

Chosen Son wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:29 am
Also, web being a lvl 6 spell, makes it better because the dc is 4 higher, just like grease is made better by being 3 dc higher off shadow conjuration. Them being higher spell level is an advantage, not a disadvantage. In pnp you need a metamagic feat (heighten spell) to raise spell level and dc correspondingly. Exactly what spells do you have at lvl 6, that you cannot spare a spellslot or two for greater shadow conjuration? There are many amazing lvl 6 spells, but you want almost all of them metamagiced, not cast without.
I will just point out that the text of the spells for Shadow Conjuration/Evocation in PnP it specifically calls out that DC's are set equal to the level of the Shadow Conjuration spell not the original(As though heightened). In that regard NwN has always matched the source.

If someone was working on heighten spell that would certainly be something, but I am doubtful as to it being a practical undertaking in NwN of course I could be wrong.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Chosen Son » Tue May 26, 2020 3:05 pm

I know. My point was that it is a good thing the dc is higher, and that normally to raise the dc of a spell, ontop of spell focus, and casting ability modifier you need to employ things like heighten spell, to raise the dc further. Higher DC = Better spell, even if it takes a higher spell slot is almost always the case. While cool certainly, I was not calling for it to be added to arelith as a feat.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by BHR55 » Tue May 26, 2020 3:16 pm

Chosen Son wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:05 pm
I know. My point was that it is a good thing the dc is higher, and that normally to raise the dc of a spell, ontop of spell focus, and casting ability modifier you need to employ things like heighten spell, to raise the dc further. Higher DC = Better spell, even if it takes a higher spell slot is almost always the case. While cool certainly, I was not calling for it to be added to arelith as a feat.
No worries, I misread what you said and wanted to clarify. We are on the same page, carry on!

As for the loss of AC from web this is due to the Entangle Effect, and is of a similar DC to Vine Mine(5th circle). When entangled your Dex drops to 3(since it won't go lower in nwn). If it's stuck like this even after you escape entanglement then it sounds more like a bug, which if reproduced can be looked at.

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by NauVaseline » Tue May 26, 2020 7:16 pm

High DC or not it'll do jackall against someone warded with freedom. Am I missing something here? What's the issue? How is this any different from a high dc death spell? I admit I skimmed the last half of the thread

Also Apokrophis (sp?) is on point

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Re: Greater Shadow Conjuration

Post by Complex » Tue May 26, 2020 7:49 pm

BHR55 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:16 pm
As for the loss of AC from web this is due to the Entangle Effect, and is of a similar DC to Vine Mine(5th circle). When entangled your Dex drops to 3(since it won't go lower in nwn). If it's stuck like this even after you escape entanglement then it sounds more like a bug, which if reproduced can be looked at.
Yeah, the DEX mod bug remains until you modify your DEX yourself, and then it goes back to normal.

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