New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

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New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:18 pm

I am making this to both explain some of the nuances and to document to updates / changes in where it was dramatic.

If you're experiencing anything strange let me know.

Second post will be an informative of the changes.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:19 pm

New Race "Restriction" Categories:

Player-Race Relevant

Gold Dwarves & Shield Dwarves = All dwarves except Derro & Gray Dwarves.
Dwarves = All dwarves except Derro.
Wild Dwarves = All dwarves except Derro & Gray Dwarves.
Gray Dwarves = All dwarves except Wild Dwarves & Derro.

Derro = Derro!
Drow & Derro = Drow & Derro!

Elves & Drow = All elves including Drow as well as Fey and Half-elves.
Elves = All elves excluding Drow in addition to Fey and Half-elves.
Moon Elves = All elves excluding Drow in addition to Fey and Half-elves.
Sun Elves = All elves excluding Drow in addition to Fey and Half-elves.
Sylvan Elves = All elves excluding Drow in addition to Fey and Half-elves.
Aquatic Elves = All elves excluding Drow in addition to Fey and Half-elves.
Avariel = All elves excluding Drow in addition to Fey and Half-elves.

Yuir = Half-elves, wild elves, and fey.

Fey = Fey, all elves including drow, half-elves, firbolgs, humans, wild dwarves, ghostwise halflings, and forest gnomes.

Gnomes = All gnomes.
Forest Gnomes = all gnomes.
Deep Gnomes = all gnomes.
Rock Gnomes = all gnomes.

Halflings = all halflings.
Lightfoot Halflings = all halflings.
Strongheart Halflings = all halflings.
Ghostwise Halflings = all halflings.

Humans = Humans!

Yuan-ti = Yuan-ti & Humans!
Kobold = Kobolds!
Troglodytes = Troglodytes!
Reptilians = Yuan-ti, kobolds, and Troglyodytes.

Giants = Firbolgs, Ogres.
Minotaurs = Minotaurs, Ogres.
Firbolgs = Firbolgs!
Ogres = Ogres!

Gnolls = Gnolls!

Rakshasa = Rakshasa pcs & tieflings.

Undead = vampire pcs!

Dragons = Dragon pcs! (and RDDs who are 10+ in level)

Orcs = orogs & half-orcs.
Goblins = Goblins & Hobgoblins!
Hobgoblins = Hobgoblins!

Monsters = Humans, orogs, half-orcs, minotaurs, firbolgs, ogres, gnolls, Rakshasa, tieflings, genasi, goblins, hobgoblins, vampires, yuan-ti, kobolds, troglodytes.


Non-Relevant to PC, special exception needed (GoD) for divine class:

Aberrations
Oozes
Hags

DEITES & OTHERS:

Faerûnian Major Powers
Same as current except
Akadi's alignment's are fixed to all neutral, all chaotic.
Auril's alignment are fixed to all evil.

Faerûnian Intermediate Powers
Moved Auppenser here.

Faerûnian Lesser Powers
Same as current except
Auril's alignment are fixed to all evil.
Moved Entropy & Tchazzar to Monstrous & Other.

Faerûnian Demipowers
Moved Poseidon, Bright Nydra, & Grond Peaksmasher to Monstrous & Other.
Added Moander (aspect of Lolth) - alignment hops (CE, NE, CN) - aspects W&D, T&D = not druidic

Faerûnian Heresies
Same as current heresies except:
Shared Suffering = LN, TN
Harlot's Coin = CE, NE
Freth Faith is racially locked to Drow and is LE,NE.

Seldarine (Elven Powers)
Same as current except:
Corellon = Elves (alignment fixed, not a paladin deity anymore.)
Angaradh = Moon Elves
Aerdrie = Avariel
Deep Sashelas = Aquatic Elves
Erevan = Elves
Hanali = Elves
Labelas = Sun Elves
Rillifane = Sylvan Elves
Sehanine = Moon Elves
Solonor = Sylvan Elves
Fenmarel = Sylvan Elves
Shevarash = Elves
Naralis = Elves
Avachel = Elves - alignment hops now CG, NG, CN
Tethrin = Elves
Kirith = Elves
Arelith = Elves
Sarula = Fey
Melira = Elves
Mythrien = Elves
Mielikki - redundant to show her place as Khaalreshar
Lurue - redundant placement to show her places as Yathaghera

Morndinsamman (Dwarven Powers)
Same as current exception Derro moved to Monstrous & Others and:
Moradin = Gold & Shield Dwarves
Abbathor = Dwarves
Berronar = Gold & Shield Dwarves
Clangeddin = Gold & Shield Dwarves
Dumathoin = Gold & Shield Dwarves
Sharindlar = Dwarves
Vergadain = Dwarves
Dugmaren = Gold & Shield Dwarves
Gorm = Gold & Shield Dwarves
Thard Harr = Wild Dwarves
Haela = Gold & Shield Dwarves
Ladueger = Gray Dwarves
Deep Duerra = Gray Dwarves

Lords of the Golden Hills (Gnomish Powers)
Garl = Rock Gnomes
Baervan = Forest Gnomes
Callarduran = Deep Gnomes
Flandal = Gnomes
Segojan = Gnomes
Urdlen = Gnomes
Baravar = Gnomes
Nebelun = Gnomes
Gond - redundant and also because some gnomes worship gond in place of nebelun!

Yondalla's Children (Halfling Powers)
Yondalla = Lightfoot Halflings
Arvoreen = Strongheart Halflings
Cyrollalee = Halflings
Sheela = Ghostwise Halflings
Brandobiras = Halflings
Urogalan = Ghostwise Halflings
Tymora - (redundant placement to show her place in the halfling pantheon)

Seelie and Unseelie Court (Fey Powers)
Titania = Fey
Oberon = Fey
Nathair = Fey
Verenestra = Fey
Queen of Air & Darkness = all

Dark Seldarine (Drow Powers)
Lolth = Drow
Selvetarm = Drow
Kiaransalee = Drow
Malyk = Drow & Derro
Ghaundaur "OOZE CHAD" - still here, all and everyone
Vhaeraun = Elves & Drow
Eilistraee = Elves & Drow

Orc & Goblin Powers
Gruumsh = Orcs
Baghtru = Orcs
Ilneval = Orcs
Luthic = Orcs
Shargaas = Orcs
Yurtrus = Orcs - changed from nature to W&D, T&D

Maglubiyet = Goblins - now all evil (NE, LE, CE)
Khurogorbaeyag = Goblins
Bargrivyek = Hobgoblins
Nomog-Geya = Hobgoblins

Yuan-ti Powers
Sseth = Yuan-ti - changed to Magic, T&D
Mersshaulk = Yuan-ti
Sss'thaen'iss = Yuan-ti
Varae = all, druidic
Shaktari = redundant for her place
Set - Redundant Set for his aspect as Sseth

Draconic Powers
Same as current but given restriction to dragons - anyone with 10+ levels of RDD will be able to choose dragon deities if divine class.
Redundant to show place.
Bahamut
Tiamat
Nathair

Monstrous & Other Powers
Added:
Adama - Alignment hops (all non-evil) - Nature, K&I - race: all = druid, paladin capable
Cegilune - Alignment hops (all evil) - Magic, T&D - race: Hags
Ilxendren - Alignment hops (CE,NE,CN) - W&D, K&I - race: Aberrations
Blibdoolpoolp - Alignment hops (CE,NE,CN) War, T&D - race Aberrations
Hiatea - Alignment hops (all good) Nature, H&H - race: Giants = druid, paladin capable

Moved to:
Bright Nydra = all
Tchazzar = human
Entropy = human
Poseidon = all
^--- Regional deities.


Diirinka = Derro
Diinkarazan = Derro
^-- Derro Pantheon

Grond Peaksmasher = Firbolgs
^-- Regional Firbolg deity.

Ravanna = Rakshasha
^-- Regional, occult power.

Vaprak = ogres
Kurtulmak = kobolds
Gaknulak = kobolds
Laogzed = troglodytes
Gorellik = gnolls
Ilsensine = aberrations
Great Mother = aberrations

Sekolah = Druidic Power <change.

Mulhorandi Powers
Same as current + Sharess as for her aspect as Bast.

Yuir Powers
Same as current except half-elf = Yuir.

Kara-Turan Powers
+Redundant Cyric (aspects), Eldath, Selune, "Tiger", "Horse", and Chauntea to show place in setting
Teylas (aspect of Akadi) - (all neutrals except lawful, all chaotics) - Nature, W&D, Druid Capable - Human
Etugen (aspect of Grumbar) - (all neutrals) - Nature, H&H, Druid Capable - Human
Padhran - (all non-evil) - H&H, K&I - Paladin Capable - Human
True Path (the Path of Enlightenement) - All Lawful - W&D, K&I - paladin capable - Human
The Way (all neutral) - All Neutrals - Magic, K&I - Human
Nine Travelers (all chaotic) - T&D, K&I - Human
Lords of Creation (all alignments) - H&H, K&I - Paladin capable - Human
Eight Million Gods (all alignments) Nature, K&I - Druidic, Paladin capable - Human

Zakharan Powers
+ Redundant Kossuth, Grumbar, isthisia, Kossuth, Gond, Helm as place in setting
Hajama = all alignments = W&D, H&H - Paladin Capable
Hakiyah = all alignments = K&I, H&H - Paladin Capable
Haku = all alignments = T&D, H&H - Paladin Capable
Jisan = all alignments = K&I, H&H - Paladin Capable
Kor = all alignments = K&I, Magic - Paladin Capable
Najm = all alignments = K&I, T&D - Paladin Capable
Selan = all alignments = K&I, H&H - Paladin Capable
Zann = all aligments = K&I, Magic - Paladin Capable
Jahaur = all alignments = K&I, T&D - Paladin Capable
Bala = all alignments = H&H, T&D - Paladin Capable
Jarmik = all alignments = K&I, H&H - Paladin Capable
Vataqatal = all alignments = W&D, H&H - Paladin Capable
Pantheon = all aligments = W&D, K&I - Paladin Capable
Ten Thousand Gods - all alignments = K&I, T&D - Paladin Capable
Kahin Practice - all neutrals = Nature, K&I = Druid Capable
Thasmudyan = all evil = W&D, Magic

Maztican Powers
Same as last except Zaltec, Azul, Tesca given racial restriction Monsters instead of human so that the evil monsters of Nexal can worship their lords.
+ Helm to show place in setting.
New:
Azuposi Spirits - all - nature, H&H - druid & paladin accessible

Nature & Beast Cults
Several redundant Faerunian & other nature powers who are beast cults.
Nature & Beast Spirits = all alignments, paladin & druid capable
Sneel (the Ratlord) = CE, NE, CN = nature, T&D druid capable
Trishina (the Dolphin Queen) = all good - nature, H&H, druid & paladin capable
Remnis (the Eagle Lord) = all good - nature, H&H, druid & paladin capable
Spider = CE, NE, CN - Nature, T&D = druids (aspect of lolth)
Cat = CG, NG, CN - Nature, T&D = Druids (aspect of Sharess)
Coyote = all neutral - nature, T&D = druids
Raven = all neutral - nature, T&D = druids
Wolf = CN, CG, CE - nature, T&D = druids (aspect of Fenmarel)
Tiger = all neutral - nature, W&D = druids
Horse = all neutral - nature, H&H = druids
Hyena = CE, NE, CN - nature, W&D = druids (aspect of Gorrelik)
Bear = CG, NG, CN - nature, W&D = druids (aspect of Magnar)
Owl = all neutral - nature, K&I = druids

Baatorian Powers
New category contains these powers who are the same except where noted.
Bel
Dispater
Mammon
Fierna
Levistus
Glasya
Baalzebul
Mephistopheles
Asmodeus
Tymphal
Crozhen
+Gargauth to show place in setting.
+Thasmudyan to show place in setting.
Malkizid - now is all evil alignment & is racially restricted to Elves & Drow
Haknian

Added:
Lilith - LE, NE - W&D, Magic
Belial - LE, NE - K&I, T&D
Moloch - LE, NE - W&D, T&D - Monsters
Geryon - LE, NE - W&D, T&D - Monsters

Abyssal Powers
New category contains these powers who are the same except where noted.
Pazuzu
Pale Night
Obox-Ob
Dragon
Zuggtmoy
Juiblex = Oozes
Paush
Eltab
Orcus
Graz'zt WAR, MAGIC (change)
Baphomat = Minotaurs
Demogorgon = W&D, K&I = Monsters
Abraxas
Kostchtchie = Giants
Yeenoghu = Gnolls - redundant to show place
Lolth - Redundant to show place
Abyssal Power (thing) renamed to Demon Lord (Thing)

New:
Malcanthet - CE, NE - T&D, H&H
Lynkhab - CE, NE - W&D, T&D
Ramenos - CE, NE - H&H, W&D - Reptilians
Doresain - CE, NE - W&D, Magic - Undead
Shaktari - CE, NE - W&D, Magic - Yuan-ti
Fraz-Urb'luu - CE, NE - T&D, Magic

Celestial Powers
Renamed. Category.

Same celestials, but added:

Court of Stars:
Morwel - Magic, K&I
Gwynharwyf - W&D, H&H
Faerinaal - Magic, T&D

Talisid & the Five Companions
Talisid - Nature, W&D
Sathia - Nature, K&I
Karash - Nature, T&D
Manath - Nature, T&D
Vhara - Nature, H&H
Bharrai - Nature, Magic

Eldritch Patrons
So these will include The Sequence & Pischaeches.
The alignments of the powers here do not matter as only majority (EVIL) warlocks, hexblades, & 10+ Blackguards can set them as patrons. GoD does not give exception here. These things do not have clerics and are worshiped in cults by the insane and virulently evil. Or are minor powers unable to truly give gifts beyond the bartered power.

The Sequence / Pischaeches - not changed beyond above. Just moved here.

Dendar Magic, T&D
Kezef W&D, T&D
Atropus W&D, Magic
Tharizdun W&D, Magic
Mak Thuum Ngatha Magic, K&I
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Red Ropes
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:42 pm

I have been informed this is not up JUST yet. But will be.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Bulba » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:04 am

My yuan-ti is not able to select Sseth as deity.

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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by nSlog » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:32 pm

Petition to allow clerics with Gift of Devotion to worship as these please and not have to pick Demon Lord (Thing) as a substitute!

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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:55 pm

Bulba wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:04 am
My yuan-ti is not able to select Sseth as deity.
I need details which feel free to PM them for discretion.

Class:
Alignment:
Is the character an "old" yuan-ti?
Did you take the GoD on a mundane?

nSlog wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:32 pm
Petition to allow clerics with Gift of Devotion to worship as these please and not have to pick Demon Lord (Thing) as a substitute!
Not sure what you're refering to but if it is Eldritch Patrons - request denied. They are not meant to be for use, typically, of divine classes - as described most people who "worship" them are not getting prayers answered. These people are making contact with proxies, doing black rituals to commune with hateful, uncaring things that make Asmodeus shudder.

The other part of it - and if it expands will be "lesser things" that are too weak to actually have followers or are proxies of other entities (lesser fiends, aspects of gibbering star madness, minor fey lords, vestiges of dead gods.)

So... play a warlock, hexblade, 10+ blackguard!
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by nSlog » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:22 pm

How about removing the restriction on needing majority warlock or hexblade levels for the Eldritch patrons, then?

I like the idea of Warlock dip instead of Bard for a standard 27 Cleric build. It's an interesting capstone to the build for evil characters, while also potentially fun for RP. Perhaps the now epic Cleric realizes their patron deity wasn't quite what they thought it was, or that their link to the divine has been corrupted and used by something else.

Picking Demon Thing and having a friend make a Warlock or Hexblade with Gift of Devotion to consecrate my altars (because where else will I find one of those, especially of a specific deity) just sounds so boring, and seeming like it will be my best option here.

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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:30 pm

nSlog wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:22 pm
How about removing the restriction on needing majority warlock or hexblade levels for the Eldritch patrons, then?

I like the idea of Warlock dip instead of Bard for a standard 27 Cleric build. It's an interesting capstone to the build for evil characters, while also potentially fun for RP. Perhaps the now epic Cleric realizes their patron deity wasn't quite what they thought it was, or that their link to the divine has been corrupted and used by something else.

Picking Demon Thing and having a friend make a Warlock or Hexblade with Gift of Devotion to consecrate my altars (because where else will I find one of those, especially of a specific deity) just sounds so boring, and seeming like it will be my best option here.
Again - the intention is to be boring here and it is not to enable dips. GoD with warlock/hex/bg will allow you to make altars.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Lilah_Novi » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:48 pm

Hi there! I just want some quick clarification on some language.

Elves & Drow = All elves including Drow as well as Fey and Half-elves.
Elves = All elves except Drow as well as Fey and Half-elves.

In the second line, is the 'as well as' settling with elves or with drow?

Basically
"Elves" = All elves, fey, and half-elves; NO drow?
OR
"Elves" = All elves; NO drow, half-elves, and fey?

Thank you! :D
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Red Ropes
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:58 pm

So "Elves" allows for all elves, except drow, fey, and half-elves.

---

Also there may be some issue with races atm. Going to try to sort it asap.

If anyone is having a divine class issue with race, be detailed as possible for me.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Yensent » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:59 pm

Moved my discussion over here, hopefully this is the best place for it.

I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, but I just don't understand why kobolds can't worship the Draconic gods as a cleric. Kobolds were made by Asgorath and regularly worship evil dragons. By extension, kobolds worshiping dragon gods and recieving divine power from them seems right on to me. If you look at the description for Asgorath and some other dragon gods, it lists reptiles as worshipers.

I apologize again, I really like the changes overall, but I dont understand why kobold are losing these as legit choices for divine classes.

The wiki for Asgorath even mentions kobold clergy members. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asgorath

Now...if we can change our gifts so my little cleric of Asgorath can take GoD, I'll be super happy still. But I don't know if I can swap around his deity without ruining his RP at this point. I'll try to consider some more options on my part though. Thanks for listening.

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Red Ropes
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:47 pm

The races issue was figured out and a fix is in the pipeline for it by the next or next next reset.

-----
Yensent wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:59 pm
Moved my discussion over here, hopefully this is the best place for it.

I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, but I just don't understand why kobolds can't worship the Draconic gods as a cleric. Kobolds were made by Asgorath and regularly worship evil dragons. By extension, kobolds worshiping dragon gods and recieving divine power from them seems right on to me. If you look at the description for Asgorath and some other dragon gods, it lists reptiles as worshipers.

I apologize again, I really like the changes overall, but I dont understand why kobold are losing these as legit choices for divine classes.

The wiki for Asgorath even mentions kobold clergy members. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asgorath

Now...if we can change our gifts so my little cleric of Asgorath can take GoD, I'll be super happy still. But I don't know if I can swap around his deity without ruining his RP at this point. I'll try to consider some more options on my part though. Thanks for listening.
You are not being annoying however, it comes down to this, Asgorath does indeed have worshippers who are reptilian but his stance as a god of wide worship in the Realms (Races of the Dragon which is referenced on the wiki is a catch all kitchen sink resource, not quite core to the setting of Forgotten Realms) - is disputable.

The Draconic Pantheon, realmswise, is something withering and "other". It is very unlikely you'll find anyone revering them let alone being a priest besides the ones who have adapted (Tiamat, Bahamut). These entities may be referenced in tales by kobolds and given awe in some cases by kobolds generally worship their racial deity whose own tale of "creation" has many conflicting versions and whether or not Asgorath made him is unclear.

What I recommend for now, and a way to adapt around it, is whatever your alignment is - choose a deity appropriate your character's ethos LN, LG, NG = Bahamut - LE, NE, LN = Tiamat/Kurtulmak. If you're not close enough to those put in a ticket to flip to the closest - and attune to Asgorath if there are shrines around.

Or just in general reference them in your character's tales and stories as important to them and their way of teaching/expressing religion.

As much as I am sorry to inconvenience some people there is purpose to it beyond the arbitrary and I do apologize for that inconvenience. But dragon gods are for dragons and the GoD has a value (as well as being a great gift in general) for that.

As for people who can't take it as they already exist: I am hoping to get a feat or something added that will work like GoD (as well as be related to my next project concept for religions: DEAD GODS & enabling cults for Dragons/Beholders/Non-Deific things like some of the Eldritch Patrons) and if you're still playing then it might allow you to revisit this.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Yensent » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:53 pm

Red Ropes wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:47 pm
The races issue was figured out and a fix is in the pipeline for it by the next or next next reset.

-----
Yensent wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:59 pm
Moved my discussion over here, hopefully this is the best place for it.

I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, but I just don't understand why kobolds can't worship the Draconic gods as a cleric. Kobolds were made by Asgorath and regularly worship evil dragons. By extension, kobolds worshiping dragon gods and recieving divine power from them seems right on to me. If you look at the description for Asgorath and some other dragon gods, it lists reptiles as worshipers.

I apologize again, I really like the changes overall, but I dont understand why kobold are losing these as legit choices for divine classes.

The wiki for Asgorath even mentions kobold clergy members. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asgorath

Now...if we can change our gifts so my little cleric of Asgorath can take GoD, I'll be super happy still. But I don't know if I can swap around his deity without ruining his RP at this point. I'll try to consider some more options on my part though. Thanks for listening.
You are not being annoying however, it comes down to this, Asgorath does indeed have worshippers who are reptilian but his stance as a god of wide worship in the Realms (Races of the Dragon which is referenced on the wiki is a catch all kitchen sink resource, not quite core to the setting of Forgotten Realms) - is disputable.

The Draconic Pantheon, realmswise, is something withering and "other". It is very unlikely you'll find anyone revering them let alone being a priest besides the ones who have adapted (Tiamat, Bahamut). These entities may be referenced in tales by kobolds and given awe in some cases by kobolds generally worship their racial deity whose own tale of "creation" has many conflicting versions and whether or not Asgorath made him is unclear.

What I recommend for now, and a way to adapt around it, is whatever your alignment is - choose a deity appropriate your character's ethos LN, LG, NG = Bahamut - LE, NE, LN = Tiamat/Kurtulmak. If you're not close enough to those put in a ticket to flip to the closest - and attune to Asgorath if there are shrines around.

Or just in general reference them in your character's tales and stories as important to them and their way of teaching/expressing religion.
Thanks for the feedback. I think I understand now. I'll go Kurtulmak and attune to Asgorath via shrine, and keep up the RP but include a wider base of stories and philosophy when my lil 'bold talks religion. I really appreciate your time and will try and make this change broaden my RP.

your ticket to the future is always open


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Alyxnia
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Alyxnia » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:08 pm

It would be really swell if changes like this were put in the Updates thread here instead of just announced in the discord. I had to find this thread buried in the Bug Forum to figure out why my deities were borked
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Kalthariam » Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:39 am

I really feel the need to request it be reconsidered that Kobolds cannot directly worship Asgorath, and in some extension, draconic dieties in general.

The only reason that Kurtlemak is a god, is because Asgorath.

Asgorath is the power that brought Kurtlemak from being just a hero-king to the kobolds to an actual diety, and was the only god that reached out after the machinations of Glittergold ruined the kobold empire, and gave Kurtlemak the chance to ascend to protect his kind.

Generally many kobolds would likely worship kurtlmak directly, sure, but there's plenty of reasons for a kobold to also decide to whorship the power that rose kobolds up out of one of their darkest hours as well.

And having a kobold I play that does indeed practice and promote the whorship of the nine-fold amoung their kin, it just feels like a weird change.

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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by CptnCandyass » Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:56 am

Red Ropes wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:47 pm
The races issue was figured out and a fix is in the pipeline for it by the next or next next reset.

-----
Yensent wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:59 pm
Moved my discussion over here, hopefully this is the best place for it.

I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, but I just don't understand why kobolds can't worship the Draconic gods as a cleric. Kobolds were made by Asgorath and regularly worship evil dragons. By extension, kobolds worshiping dragon gods and recieving divine power from them seems right on to me. If you look at the description for Asgorath and some other dragon gods, it lists reptiles as worshipers.

I apologize again, I really like the changes overall, but I dont understand why kobold are losing these as legit choices for divine classes.

The wiki for Asgorath even mentions kobold clergy members. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asgorath

Now...if we can change our gifts so my little cleric of Asgorath can take GoD, I'll be super happy still. But I don't know if I can swap around his deity without ruining his RP at this point. I'll try to consider some more options on my part though. Thanks for listening.
You are not being annoying however, it comes down to this, Asgorath does indeed have worshippers who are reptilian but his stance as a god of wide worship in the Realms (Races of the Dragon which is referenced on the wiki is a catch all kitchen sink resource, not quite core to the setting of Forgotten Realms) - is disputable.

The Draconic Pantheon, realmswise, is something withering and "other". It is very unlikely you'll find anyone revering them let alone being a priest besides the ones who have adapted (Tiamat, Bahamut).
I'm currently trying to wrap my head around the idea of why Kobolds can't worship Asgorath anymore, as the reasoning seems to be a bit contradictory.

Mainly this bit here:
...it comes down to this, Asgorath does indeed have worshippers who are reptilian but his stance as a god of wide worship in the Realms... ...is disputable.
The Draconic Pantheon, realmswise, is something withering and "other". It is very unlikely you'll find anyone revering them let alone being a priest besides the ones who have adapted (Tiamat, Bahamut).
Is there a purpose behind this? If there are Kobold characters who directly worship and receive their divine spells from Asgorath, make complete sense in-character AND in-world, then why would it be removed as an option? There ARE reptilians that worship him as a God, so whether that worship is wide or slim shouldn't be a factor in my opinion, It's a fact that some worship Asgorath, even if rare.

As the previous commenter said, there are instances of there being Kobold clerics, which should be more than enough reason to include the possibility of there being a Kobold Cleric of Asgorath on Arelith. Even if Kobold Clerics weren't a specific "thing", isn't the point of DnD to be opened minded about the world you're in, as long as it makes sense?

To pull from a direct 3.5e source, we have the 3.5e Sourcebook "Races of Dragon", which mentions on page 49 under "Religion":

"...but individual tribes and kobolds
might venerate another dragon deity. See Dragon Deities,
beginning on page 149, for more on draconic divinities."

...and on that page, it lists Io, also known as Asgorath.

I guess I'm not seeing the clearly drawn line between Kobolds and Asgorath that you are seeing, and I want to understand. From my point of view, no matter where you read about Kobolds, you see Asgorath/Io listed. It makes as much sense to create a Kobold that worships Asgorath directly as it does to make one that worships ones like Gaknulak or Kuraulyek (if those two are even in Arelith atm, I haven't looked through the entire deity list as of yet), and they are hardly even deities due to them being Demigods in 2e, but they are directly worshiped by Kobolds none-the-less.

If you could please explain in better detail, I'm really curious as to the reasoning of Asgorath's removal.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Flower Power » Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:11 am

Red Ropes wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:58 pm
So "Elves" allows for all elves, except drow, fey, and half-elves.
Is there some particular reason for this? Every elven god explicitly allows Half-Elves to be specialty clerics of them (including the most exclusive of them all, Deep Sashelas - a Sun Elf can't be a specialty priest of his, but a half-aquatic elf can.)

Demihuman Deities also gives pretty detailed breakdowns of the makeup of every faith's clergy, with half-elves coming in at between 4-15% of the clergy of every elven deity with the sole exceptions of Deep Sashelas (only 1% - but still explicitly allowed to be Specialty Priests) and Hanali (35% of her clergy are half-elves, they form a plurality in her faith.) Notably, they make up a full 12% of Corellon's clergy, a fairly substantial minority.

It feels strange to lock half-elves out of being priests of various elf-gods when every elven god explicitly carves out a place for them in canon, even to the exclusion of other full-blooded elves at times - and especially given how anti-elven supremacism the Seldarine are.

Also, uh, aren't the majority of Bahamut's worshipers Human? Like, the only reason he has enough worshipers and support to be considered a god again is because he gave his divine patronage and protection to Damara.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Itikar » Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:14 am

I noticed Ghaunadaur is not listed among the Dark Seldarine, even as placeholder. Is this intentional? If so, well, it's a little weird, given all versions of the dark seldarine seem to include our beloved ooze god.

But more importantly, will drow divine classes be allowed to worship him without the gift of devotion?

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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:06 am

Flower Power wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:11 am
Red Ropes wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:58 pm
So "Elves" allows for all elves, except drow, fey, and half-elves.
Is there some particular reason for this? Every elven god explicitly allows Half-Elves to be specialty clerics of them (including the most exclusive of them all, Deep Sashelas - a Sun Elf can't be a specialty priest of his, but a half-aquatic elf can.)

Demihuman Deities also gives pretty detailed breakdowns of the makeup of every faith's clergy, with half-elves coming in at between 4-15% of the clergy of every elven deity with the sole exceptions of Deep Sashelas (only 1% - but still explicitly allowed to be Specialty Priests) and Hanali (35% of her clergy are half-elves, they form a plurality in her faith.) Notably, they make up a full 12% of Corellon's clergy, a fairly substantial minority.

It feels strange to lock half-elves out of being priests of various elf-gods when every elven god explicitly carves out a place for them in canon, even to the exclusion of other full-blooded elves at times - and especially given how anti-elven supremacism the Seldarine are.

Also, uh, aren't the majority of Bahamut's worshipers Human? Like, the only reason he has enough worshipers and support to be considered a god again is because he gave his divine patronage and protection to Damara.
Sorry that was a grammar error.

Elves. Half-elves. Fey. but not Drow.

Bahamut is not racially restricted.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:08 am

Itikar wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:14 am
I noticed Ghaunadaur is not listed among the Dark Seldarine, even as placeholder. Is this intentional? If so, well, it's a little weird, given all versions of the dark seldarine seem to include our beloved ooze god.

But more importantly, will drow divine classes be allowed to worship him without the gift of devotion?
Ghaundaur is unrestricted and he is part of the Dark Seldarine. Keep in mind above post is just me consolidating every single deity/power we have shorthand so I might have forgotten a few. What you see in game is what actually is failing my human error.

Almost no racial pantheon lost anyone.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:08 am

also the race bug should be fixed for those who were having it. let me know if its not the case.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Flower Power » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:28 am

Red Ropes wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:06 am

Sorry that was a grammar error.

Elves. Half-elves. Fey. but not Drow.

Bahamut is not racially restricted.
Neat. Thanks for clearing that up.

As for Bahamut, well, that's what I get for not reading the changes myself because of migraines and just listening to other people complain.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Drowboy » Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:36 pm

Do LE Drow with BG levels need gift of devotion to take Freth Faith? If no, there's something up.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Red Ropes » Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:54 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:36 pm
Do LE Drow with BG levels need gift of devotion to take Freth Faith? If no, there's something up.
Should be able to! Will check whats up. I think that Drow was something I might have overlooked w/ the last fix.
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Re: New Gods & Tweaks Bugs (The Thread!)

Post by Yensent » Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:08 pm

Kalthariam wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:39 am
I really feel the need to request it be reconsidered that Kobolds cannot directly worship Asgorath, and in some extension, draconic dieties in general.

The only reason that Kurtlemak is a god, is because Asgorath.

Asgorath is the power that brought Kurtlemak from being just a hero-king to the kobolds to an actual diety, and was the only god that reached out after the machinations of Glittergold ruined the kobold empire, and gave Kurtlemak the chance to ascend to protect his kind.

Generally many kobolds would likely worship kurtlmak directly, sure, but there's plenty of reasons for a kobold to also decide to whorship the power that rose kobolds up out of one of their darkest hours as well.

And having a kobold I play that does indeed practice and promote the whorship of the nine-fold amoung their kin, it just feels like a weird change.
CptnCandyass wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:56 am
Red Ropes wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:47 pm
The races issue was figured out and a fix is in the pipeline for it by the next or next next reset.

-----
Yensent wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:59 pm
Moved my discussion over here, hopefully this is the best place for it.

I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, but I just don't understand why kobolds can't worship the Draconic gods as a cleric. Kobolds were made by Asgorath and regularly worship evil dragons. By extension, kobolds worshiping dragon gods and recieving divine power from them seems right on to me. If you look at the description for Asgorath and some other dragon gods, it lists reptiles as worshipers.

I apologize again, I really like the changes overall, but I dont understand why kobold are losing these as legit choices for divine classes.

The wiki for Asgorath even mentions kobold clergy members. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asgorath

Now...if we can change our gifts so my little cleric of Asgorath can take GoD, I'll be super happy still. But I don't know if I can swap around his deity without ruining his RP at this point. I'll try to consider some more options on my part though. Thanks for listening.
You are not being annoying however, it comes down to this, Asgorath does indeed have worshippers who are reptilian but his stance as a god of wide worship in the Realms (Races of the Dragon which is referenced on the wiki is a catch all kitchen sink resource, not quite core to the setting of Forgotten Realms) - is disputable.

The Draconic Pantheon, realmswise, is something withering and "other". It is very unlikely you'll find anyone revering them let alone being a priest besides the ones who have adapted (Tiamat, Bahamut).
I'm currently trying to wrap my head around the idea of why Kobolds can't worship Asgorath anymore, as the reasoning seems to be a bit contradictory.

Mainly this bit here:
...it comes down to this, Asgorath does indeed have worshippers who are reptilian but his stance as a god of wide worship in the Realms... ...is disputable.
The Draconic Pantheon, realmswise, is something withering and "other". It is very unlikely you'll find anyone revering them let alone being a priest besides the ones who have adapted (Tiamat, Bahamut).
Is there a purpose behind this? If there are Kobold characters who directly worship and receive their divine spells from Asgorath, make complete sense in-character AND in-world, then why would it be removed as an option? There ARE reptilians that worship him as a God, so whether that worship is wide or slim shouldn't be a factor in my opinion, It's a fact that some worship Asgorath, even if rare.

As the previous commenter said, there are instances of there being Kobold clerics, which should be more than enough reason to include the possibility of there being a Kobold Cleric of Asgorath on Arelith. Even if Kobold Clerics weren't a specific "thing", isn't the point of DnD to be opened minded about the world you're in, as long as it makes sense?

To pull from a direct 3.5e source, we have the 3.5e Sourcebook "Races of Dragon", which mentions on page 49 under "Religion":

"...but individual tribes and kobolds
might venerate another dragon deity. See Dragon Deities,
beginning on page 149, for more on draconic divinities."

...and on that page, it lists Io, also known as Asgorath.

I guess I'm not seeing the clearly drawn line between Kobolds and Asgorath that you are seeing, and I want to understand. From my point of view, no matter where you read about Kobolds, you see Asgorath/Io listed. It makes as much sense to create a Kobold that worships Asgorath directly as it does to make one that worships ones like Gaknulak or Kuraulyek (if those two are even in Arelith atm, I haven't looked through the entire deity list as of yet), and they are hardly even deities due to them being Demigods in 2e, but they are directly worshiped by Kobolds none-the-less.

If you could please explain in better detail, I'm really curious as to the reasoning of Asgorath's removal.
Let me try and steel-man Red Rope's argument...

While Asgorath is a valid worship option, he is not an active power who grants divine power to his followers. The gods who are active and adapted among the Dragon Gods are. Like Tiamat. It is valid to believe in the Dragon gods and their powers...but we do not get divine power from Asgorath. We may have included him in our culture and our kobold religion, but he is just not supplying or replying(which in Red Rope's defense the wiki says he listens to all prayers, but answers none).

All in all, it makes me sad to have to swap to Tiamat, but I'm trying to adapt this into an opportunity for us kobolds to become a bit more polytheistic in our worship and teachings.

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