Pruning the World Tree

[magistrasa]

So I've been lore hunting for a little bit and discovered something pretty annoying - there are two different versions of the World Tree Cosmology that are apparently used in 3.5! They're basically identical, except for one key difference: One version has the Ethereal Plane, and the other has the Feywild. This came to my attention while reading through the Campaign Guide for 3.5, which says that the Spellplague pulled the Feywild closer in relationship with Toril. But on the FR wiki, all the info it has on the World Tree Cosmology puts the Ethereal Plane in its place, and my prior understanding of the Feywild was that it was some dinky little demiplane branching out of the Ethereal or Dream Plane (which apparently hasn't been a thing since 2e).

So, what kind of universe are we looking at? Has the Feywild superseded the Ethereal Plane? Is there even more obscure lore on the matter that I'm unaware of shaping the world we play in? Can someone who knows things please let us know what to expect?

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

There is no Feywild whatsoever in the Arelith cosmology, as Irongron had made clear in discussions following the addition of (Arelith-style) Firbolgs as a playable race. (Official, #development-general, 01/07/2020).

[Nitro]

Given how the astrolabe is set up on Arelith it seems like the server leans more on the great wheel cosmology than the world tree cosmology.

EDIT: For a quick lesson on the history of the Feywild as pertains to the Faerun setting. The first ever mention of a "plane of the faerie"
Is in the 2001 release "Manual of the Planes, third edition" and then later in the dragon article "Seelie and Unseelie Courts" from 2002: https://web.archive.org/web/20161101074 ... /20021213a
The manual of the planes describes it as a "Coexistent outer plane that functions like an outer plane, but with close connections to the material plane." and is also described as a rough mirror of the material plane that could be accessed without travel through the astral plane via specific sites and ruins on the material plane.

Feywild was first mentioned in the 2008 release; "Manual of the Planes, 4th Edition" Which invented it as an alternate mirror to the material plane, in opposite of the plane of shadows (Which was renamed shadowfell), which was then adopted on into 5th edition as the definitive fey plane. But for 3ed, the unnamed Plane of the Faerie/Plane of the Fey is the best we have.

EDIT 2: Regarding the Ethereal plane, in Manual of the planes, it's described as a mirror plane of the Material and other planes, a misty fog-like rendition of the plane you are nearest to, fully able to look in on that plane but without those on that plane being able to see you. It is also described as a connector that one can use to travel between the many planes by physically moving your body into it (unlike astrally projecting your spirit into the astral plane).

[RedGiant]

There is no Feywild whatsoever in the Arelith cosmology, as Irongron had made clear in discussions following the addition of (Arelith-style) Firbolgs as a playable race. (Official, #development-general, 01/07/2020).

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[ReverentBlade]

The Astrolabe badly needs to be overhauled to correct Forgotten Realms lore (World Tree) and not the Great Wheel of vanilla D&D. I consider its current incarnation to be erroneous and non-canon.

[Xerah]

Not really. They are interpretations of the cosmology and the world is a rather new view given current FR time.

[Kuma]

the astrolabe's construction was a key component in balancing out planar disruptions, so honestly it kinda seems more like the great wheel is more correct in arelith after all, lmao

anyway, spellplague hasn't and doesn't happen on arelith and i pray to god it never will, which also means things like feywild and shadowfell do not and will not happen.

[CosmicOrderV]

I probably don't know enough about the spellplague, specifically, to comment about whether or not its a good idea, but I think just in terms of a big cosmology shake-up that would change the layout of the planes? That would actually be super dope. I hope one day the Admin's put it to practice.

Let's kill off a few gods! Consolidate planes, or maybe add some. Group together icons of similar themes, and portfolios! Maybe bring some less popular gods to the fore?

Especially when we have some real obvious mechanical changes implemented. Like Time Stop for example. A ninth level spell, that somehow manages to alter the perception of time, has suddenly changed how it functions??? Dude, that's BIG! What sort of psuedo-scientific physics had to change to accomplish this? What sort of effects does this have on the universe? When there are gods to represent these universal traits, and one of those traits change, that implies some sort of deific change should probably be associated with it. That's a fantastic point for players, DM's, and admins alike, to create a story from!

Ironically, it goes back into why it's so important that game mechanics maintain a sort of thematic consistency. Whether its classes, or module systems, it doesn't matter. It has to maintain an internal narrative (even if that narrative is hidden from players--just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there). Otherwise, big universe changes can happen, and they will have zero impact on roleplay. Which is a bit silly. That's the whole point of roleplaying. You're supposed to portray a character that treats their world as if it was real. It gives the stories created within that world a visceral sense of immersion. Makes the interactions so much more meaningful.

By shaking up the system, I think it would really serve to highlight the nature of things, and give Arelith a new depth of immersion it's never seen before.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I probably don't know enough about the spellplague, specifically, to comment about whether or not its a good idea, but I think just in terms of a big cosmology shake-up that would change the layout of the planes? That would actually be super dope. I hope one day the Admin's put it to practice.

Let's kill off a few gods! Consolidate planes, or maybe add some. Group together icons of similar themes, and portfolios! Maybe bring some less popular gods to the fore?

Especially when we have some real obvious mechanical changes implemented. Like Time Stop for example. A ninth level spell, that somehow manages to alter the perception of time, has suddenly changed how it functions??? Dude, that's BIG! What sort of psuedo-scientific physics had to change to accomplish this? What sort of effects does this have on the universe? When there are gods to represent these universal traits, and one of those traits change, that implies some sort of deific change should probably be associated with it. That's a fantastic point for players, DM's, and admins alike, to create a story from!

Ironically, it goes back into why it's so important that game mechanics maintain a sort of thematic consistency. Whether its classes, or module systems, it doesn't matter. It has to maintain an internal narrative (even if that narrative is hidden from players--just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there). Otherwise, big universe changes can happen, and they will have zero impact on roleplay. Which is a bit silly. That's the whole point of roleplaying. You're supposed to portray a character that treats their world as if it was real. It gives the stories created within that world a visceral sense of immersion. Makes the interactions so much more meaningful.

By shaking up the system, I think it would really serve to highlight the nature of things, and give Arelith a new depth of immersion it's never seen before.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I am ever forced to live through 4E FR-lore I'm gonna take a hard pass until the server hits 5E. 4E lore was so bad that it's literally the shortest iteration of canon material to exist in FR <or will be before the end of the year if it isn't already, assuming the company doesn't suddenly bankrupt > (and the rest of D&D, for that matter). The mechanics weren't awful (at least IMO), but the writing and hand-waving was so sloppy it was internally painful for me (this had a lot to do with WotC flexing their rights over creative control and not a lot to do with the original content creator's personal wants, IIRC).

If we have to do a progression to a different edition of lore, I'm begging that we go straight to 5E. I can handle that.

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

I'm pretty confident we're not moving from 3E Great Wheel, barring word otherwise from the big boss. As it stands, answer is already posted and sourced.

[CosmicOrderV]

Changing edition was definitely not what I said.

Arelith has already home-brewed plenty of stuff. One doesn't have to change edition in order to expound upon the setting.

Events in history that shake up the cosmology of the world can happen all within the confines of Arelith's 3.X mechanical structure.

Whether or not that actually happens? Here's hoping A missed opportunity if not.

D I V E R G E

[Xerah]

Arelith is based around taking a character from 3.5 lore and jumping into the game, not going out and reading pages of custom Arelith lore before getting started.

[CosmicOrderV]

Assuming a comment made in good faith, in an effort to stimulate conversation.

New world events don't necessitate reading pages of lore. Though, new world events that preserve expectations and setting integrity, without requiring too much reading, do necessitate creativity

For example, going off of 3.5 lore and jumping into the game as an underdarker creates heavy dissonance, as some core 3.5 expectations are not upheld. We see it regularly. Yet, no one needs to read pages about how Arelith differs, to understand how its differences play out.

You don't need to read who is in charge of Cordor. You can play to find out. You don't need to read to figure out which planes coexist with the prime, you can play to find out! You don't need to read which gods have been subjugated or subsumed by others, you can experience it in-game to find out! It's part of how Arelith sells the persistent world experience. It's supposed to change over time, but continue the same narrative.

So it's totally possible! Perhaps not easy, but possible. Perhaps as well, though, I've too much faith in peoples' ability to be creative.

Here's hoping!

[Kuma]

i will say that i feel it's a missed opportunity for more deific conflict and perhaps subsumption/death of gods in the realms, especially since we've had almost 200 years of history. amia had a few things like this happen and even has a custom Archduke of Hell rise up at some point in charge of... I forget which layer.

but then we've enough of a history of world changing events reaching arelith that we do just barely stop short of this anyway.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

There is something to be said about the awkwardness of being technically like 20 years out from the Time of Troubles, but also 200+ years from the Time of Troubles.

I do sometimes wish we had a just a 1-pager of brief lore points that talks about how Arelith is currently in the 1500s DR and here's the Arelith Reckoning timeline and some stuff that's happened and no we're not in 4E or 5E.

[Kuma]

There is something to be said about the awkwardness of being technically like 20 years out from the Time of Troubles, but also 200+ years from the Time of Troubles.

I do sometimes wish we had a just a 1-pager of brief lore points that talks about how Arelith is currently in the 1500s DR and here's the Arelith Reckoning timeline and some stuff that's happened and no we're not in 4E or 5E.

the realms has been more or less stable the entire time because at the point we're 'stuck' in 1372DR, Elminster is still trapped in Hell. clearly, this is the point of divergence: without Elminster around to screw things up, the wider world kind of plods along at a dull pace

[Borin Drakkmurl]

I have been kind of hoping that stuff like this will eventually be adressed in the whole Player Handbook Project that Titania has been working on here:

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=23905

Like Seven said, just one page with a DnD sourcebook type of language and appearance, explaining the cosmology and timelines used on Arelith could be not only useful, but cool.

Like I said before, Arelith has developed more than enough of its own lore and history, after more than 15 years of player and developer input, to warrant something more specific to its own setting, even if they are just broad strokes, but broad strokes with specific colors we can recognize and use.

There are many examples of stuff like this, from the way the different deities and religions have ended up being reflected on the ground through player action,that differ from what original DnD lore says, to player interpretation of playable races where the source material is very lacking or conflicting, like orogs.

[Dr. B]

Great Wheel > World Tree

[Seven Sons of Sin]

There is something to be said about the awkwardness of being technically like 20 years out from the Time of Troubles, but also 200+ years from the Time of Troubles.

I do sometimes wish we had a just a 1-pager of brief lore points that talks about how Arelith is currently in the 1500s DR and here's the Arelith Reckoning timeline and some stuff that's happened and no we're not in 4E or 5E.

the realms has been more or less stable the entire time because at the point we're 'stuck' in 1372DR, Elminster is still trapped in Hell. clearly, this is the point of divergence: without Elminster around to screw things up, the wider world kind of plods along at a dull pace

Elminster? You mean the Ed Greenwood self-insertion-avatar?

[Kuma]

There is something to be said about the awkwardness of being technically like 20 years out from the Time of Troubles, but also 200+ years from the Time of Troubles.

I do sometimes wish we had a just a 1-pager of brief lore points that talks about how Arelith is currently in the 1500s DR and here's the Arelith Reckoning timeline and some stuff that's happened and no we're not in 4E or 5E.

the realms has been more or less stable the entire time because at the point we're 'stuck' in 1372DR, Elminster is still trapped in Hell. clearly, this is the point of divergence: without Elminster around to screw things up, the wider world kind of plods along at a dull pace

Elminster? You mean the Ed Greenwood self-insertion-avatar?

the events of the book "Elminster in Hell" are happening as we speak, perpetually, because it's in progress at the point arelith diverges

so yeah basically ed greenwood is never allowed to leave hell and write more FR, so it remains stuck, lmao

[Jagel]

And that is a comforting thought, is it not?

[Irongron]

Few things need my reply here.

First in regard to the main question - World Tree or Great Wheel?

Well, I take these to be common interpretations of the planar structure. Arelith itself (by virtue of the Astrolabe) adheres the Great Wheel, but if a player talks about the World Tree structure, or references it in their roleplay, I'm not going to shut them down so long as they don't move events on past 3.5e. In regard to the Feywild - sure, it doesn't exist, but again rather than send someone a tell saying that they're wrong I'd probably just dispute its existence as a common myth.

So, about moving towards, or past Spellplague, either with Arelith custom lore, or following official lore.

Neither will happen. Being based in the same setting as Baldur's Gate isn't hard for people to grasp. The cynic in me only really ever saw spellplague as a means for WOTC to sell new sourcebooks, and I definitely don't like how the Forgotten Realms looks afterwards. Even if I did like this stuff, it would require such a wholesale rewrite of Arelith resources and scripts that it would never be worth it. We might have small pieces of custom history/lore, but on a VERY small scale. I dislike doing so - I find it presumptuous, especially for players who come here expecting the classic Forgotten Realms experience, and the requirement for them to read our own 'special' history. There are plenty of other servers out there for that.

Finally, regarding 'But we're 200 years past 1372 - I don't actually agree with that.

I think there's an important point to make here, which I don't think has been addressed above.

The speed at which our 'years' pass are governed by the speed of NWN. We can't change the length of an hour when calculating spells, the day/night cycle etc, but at the same time neither can we race around the server in Fast-Forward mode.

People play the game at perfectly normal speed, and we just have to kind of flabbily accept that sitting down for a long lunch will be a couple of days of NWN calender time.

Measuring the AR Reckoning is really about being able to frame our own server history. If someone wants to RP a pregnancy accurately for instance they'll come to term less than 2 weeks later, which will likely be about 8 hours of actual play. There is no getting around just how silly this is, so in our RP we just have to avoid focusing on it too heavily.

I would argue that AR time does not move at the same speed as the FR date, at all.

If its 1372 FR and 143 AR, then the current FR date, is about 1385, not 1515

Really though, we each have juggle this our own way - with the speed of NWN there's no sense to it.

By the above I mean; While the day/night cycle races past on Arelith, time passes at 1:1 speed. We would be absolutely ovewhelmed if we tried to cram a years worth of world history into every 3 week period. It would take all of my time to properly reflect, and entirely dominate RP. I know given how time passes on NWN there is no sense to the above, but short of adjusting NWN time to run on the same day/night cycle as ourselves (a terrible idea), or having some specific lore with states that for some magical reason days on Arelith last 2.5 hours we just have to work with it.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Hey irongron, just curious-

Why would it be terrible to 1:1 mirror RL time to NWN time? Or even slow it down to maybe 1RLhr:2ingamehrs?

Is it from a technical standpoint or a thematic one?

Narratively, I am unsure if it is worth all the hassle, but it has always been one of the few things I have been curious about.

As well as changing what exactly the length of an hour is, and the frequency of RPR ticks.

... i suppose a lot of balance hinges in turns/hours so there is that too.

[CosmicOrderV]

The notion about players attempting to make sense of their world, and debating the nature of it, is awesome! But I don't understand why it's acceptable to take that approach with planar makeup, and no where else?

People end up reading various wikis, and asking things in the discord lore channel, extremely regularly. It's the same reason this thread was created. Forgotten realms lore isn't easy to pick up (read: too many cooks in the kitchen--but hey, we use what we got). They put a giant book together, proving this (Grand History of the Realms). So not wanting people to have to read a bunch of lore? Again, people don't read who is in charge of Cordor. You don't have to read about which Duke of Hell has recently come to power. These are things that can be defined through in-game experiences. Just like with the planar makeup. For everything else, people are reading anyways. Arelith has its own wiki for that reason. What difference does it make where they read these things? If they even have to read something at all, as opposed to just finding out in-game. Why is this an exception?

"Even if I did like this stuff, it would require such a wholesale rewrite of Arelith resources and scripts that it would never be worth it."
This just sounds like baseless fear. One could absolutely come up with new exciting narratives, that don't require total overhauls or rewrites. Just takes a bit of creativity! Even still, overhauls have been done before. Let's look at UMD and Lore. So why the exception?

Because it's presumptuous? Presumptuous for the sake of people expecting an authentic forgotten realms experience? Like, for Underdarkers? It's the most unauthentic experience on the server. The contradiction here is a bit wild.

It can be dangerous business walking out your front door, but that's the nature of growth. Seems daunting at first, but leads to some fantastic places. Here's hoping the server hasn't been consigned to a life of mediocrity, by being kept inside.

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

The notion about players attempting to make sense of their world, and debating the nature of it, is awesome! But I don't understand why it's acceptable to take that approach with planar makeup, and no where else?

People end up reading various wikis, and asking things in the discord lore channel, extremely regularly. It's the same reason this thread was created. Forgotten realms lore isn't easy to pick up (read: too many cooks in the kitchen--but hey, we use what we got). They put a giant book together, proving this (Grand History of the Realms). So not wanting people to have to read a bunch of lore? Again, people don't read who is in charge of Cordor. You don't have to read about which Duke of Hell has recently come to power. These are things that can be defined through in-game experiences. Just like with the planar makeup. For everything else, people are reading anyways. Arelith has its own wiki for that reason. What difference does it make where they read these things? If they even have to read something at all, as opposed to just finding out in-game. Why is this an exception?

"Even if I did like this stuff, it would require such a wholesale rewrite of Arelith resources and scripts that it would never be worth it."
This just sounds like baseless fear. One could absolutely come up with new exciting narratives, that don't require total overhauls or rewrites. Just takes a bit of creativity! Even still, overhauls have been done before. Let's look at UMD and Lore. So why the exception?

Because it's presumptuous? Presumptuous for the sake of people expecting an authentic forgotten realms experience? Like, for Underdarkers? It's the most unauthentic experience on the server. The contradiction here is a bit wild.

It can be dangerous business walking out your front door, but that's the nature of growth. Seems daunting at first, but leads to some fantastic places. Here's hoping the server hasn't been consigned to a life of mediocrity, by being kept inside.

Emphasis mine, for the elements that really are not helping your case here. That's some pretty rude back-handedness, for what should be obvious reasons, and as a mediocre uncreative myself, I'd appreciate a little more tact.

Assuming a discussion in good faith: you underestimate the time investment required for something like this. Not only the technical aspect (which, at least for area work, is an exceedingly time-intensive hobby), but even initial discussion on creative direction and implementation isn't just a five-minute task.

The natural argument that sweeping changes to the cosmology could be achieved through minor updates (altered background elements, a handful of dialogues, misc. other) instead of an extensive overhaul runs up against the question of "why bother?" A setting change with huge world- or plane-altering implications is only done a disservice by covering it scantly, and what could be a huge seam of content to explore just gets consigned to background noise (and confusion to players).

There's more I could say against or for something like this- the issue certainly isn't black and white. What is black and white though:

So, about moving towards, or past Spellplague, either with Arelith custom lore, or following official lore.

Neither will happen. Being based in the same setting as Baldur's Gate isn't hard for people to grasp. The cynic in me only really ever saw spellplague as a means for WOTC to sell new sourcebooks, and I definitely don't like how the Forgotten Realms looks afterwards. Even if I did like this stuff, it would require such a wholesale rewrite of Arelith resources and scripts that it would never be worth it. We might have small pieces of custom history/lore, but on a VERY small scale. I dislike doing so - I find it presumptuous, especially for players who come here expecting the classic Forgotten Realms experience, and the requirement for them to read our own 'special' history. There are plenty of other servers out there for that.