Pruning the World Tree

[xanrael]

To me Arelith is effectively a "version" of FR with some changes, something I've seen pretty much any time I've sat down to play D&D in an established world. Likewise some houserules may exist like changing a spell/feat/skill or what are inappropriate actions and it doesn't tend to lead to questions of "well how would that change the lore?"

At least as a third party, I don't really care if another PC's backstory or thoughts seamlessly fit into every bit of FR lore. My only interest in their PC is the interactions and actions they have in the game itself. Now if drawn into a discussion my PC might express their thoughts or act on their own understanding, but differing opinions exist on what should be factual stuff in RL so I don't see why it cannot in game.

[Irongron]

To me Arelith is effectively a "version" of FR with some changes, something I've seen pretty much any time I've sat down to play D&D in an established world. Likewise some houserules may exist like changing a spell/feat/skill or what are inappropriate actions and it doesn't tend to lead to questions of "well how would that change the lore?"

At least as a third party, I don't really care if another PC's backstory or thoughts seamlessly fit into every bit of FR lore. My only interest in their PC is the interactions and actions they have in the game itself. Now if drawn into a discussion my PC might express their thoughts or act on their own understanding, but differing opinions exist on what should be factual stuff in RL so I don't see why it cannot in game.

I pretty much agree with the entirety of this. In development land we'll stick close to established lore, but what characters do or think is largely up to themselves. We can easily afford to take a laid back approach.

And to the poster a few posts back implying it wouldn't be so hard to change Arelith's lore, or nudge it forward a few decades...

Changing the entire deity system, tracking down every conversation, every altar, every description in over a thousand areas to reflect changes we make, and then asking players to update every bit of off-site reference material AND remaking the Astrolabe (even this alone is a huge ask)? Not only certainly impossible to do without missing some things, is hundreds of hours of development work. It would be the absolute height of foolishness, and would effectively throw away a good portion of the work that went into making this server.

It would be an absolute, unmitigated, disaster.

Oh; and Seven Sons of Sin, I haven't ignored your question, it just requires a lengthy answer better left to when I'm at my computer and not limited to my phone!

[Kuma]

there is something to be said for more formally diverging arelith's "greater world" into its own version of the Forgotten Realms, at least where it concerns, say, the actions of otherwise stagnant nations, wars, what the heck the zhents or red wizards are up to, etc.

considering that the forgotten realms wiki is no longer a useful source of usable lore and setting, due to it being updated to 4E and 5E, especially the more "basic" pages for acclimatising yourself to the setting as a whole, the argument of new players coming to arelith struggling to know what a proposed "our version" of lore is doesn't hold water. this is already the case.

i can guarantee you that most new players to the server, and newcomers to FR and NWNEE, will be coming to us from 5E and adjacent lore and content, and to understand where we're playing already needs the dubiously legal acquisition of decades-old, out of print setting guides.

deciding that our "greater world" timeline might move forward in its own unique ways - perhaps the Thayvian Civil War finally, finally breaks out, perhaps the City of Shade makes some advances, perhaps Amnian colonies rebel - is not exactly any more of an ask than asking people to adhere to 3.x lore, in the year 2020.

mind, i'm not advocating we skip to 5E lore, or "progress" through the Spellplague, nobody... actually wants that. but this was something Pindrop was good at as a DM, the crown of horns quest started as an outside influence involving Tethyr and Nelanther Pirates. it's within the scope of DMs to add to a "meta-plot", that maybe yeah, we can't interact with directly, but could serve to flesh out the greater world.

i mean, hell, what if a god did die? not the whole cavalcade of spellplague deities getting deleted, but just one god is killed and another subsumes its power. the implications for its faith on arelith would be huge. the expectation that it be "brought back by some epic quest" would be met with, actually, you can't. that could be a colossal driving point in server direction, as characters and the world responds to it.

and having a note on the wiki for the "outside world timeline" going forward would be simple enough.

in essence what im getting at is that saying "someone can come here after they played baldurs gate" is a little bit outdated nowadays, and that we're already well beyond the point of no return regarding needing (increasingly obscure) supplementary reading materials to fully understand the world. and it's only gonna get worse.

[Irongron]

in essence what im getting at is that saying "someone can come here after they played baldurs gate" is a little bit outdated nowadays, and that we're already well beyond the point of no return regarding needing (increasingly obscure) supplementary reading materials to fully understand the world. and it's only gonna get worse.

It's not just Baldur's Gate, it's also Neverwinter Nights, and all of its premium modules, including any more that may be yet to come. I'm definitely making a creative choice to keep Arelith in the same setting, as it always has been.

Certainly very small changes are more manageable though, but I do want to limit just how how much specific Areltih stuff players have to read - sure there is already a lot, mechanically, but to me that doesn't justify doing it for the world too.

[CosmicOrderV]

Took me all morning to come up with a huge example of how it could be done without profound module changes. Then Kuma went and put it very simply. Bugger! lol

I'll post it in a follow up thread, for now, though TL;DR

Mechanical changes imply changes to the setting. Because What We See Is What We Get. Segregating the two runs counter to Arelith's design. If we see a new class suddenly spring into existence, or a spell change how it function, or just a new spell entirely? That's a change to the setting. That's something that wasn't there before. An inspired, creative player, uses these things to fuel their interactions with the world. They make inferences from them, and extrapolate meaningful comparisons to the real world, when engaging with their fellow players. It's the nature of roleplay. The roles have to be defined, before you can play. The less defined the roles are, the harder it is to play. You can only play to the depth of the defined roles. Doesn't mean you understand how the roles are defined. Just means the universe functions in such a way that it adheres to these background rules/definitions, even if you as a player-or-character don't understand what those definitions are. It's about the journey of discovery, and how it shapes interactions with the world.

[CosmicOrderV]

Alright. Proof is in the pudding.
Requirements: Two DM's, Normal Update Schedule, Participating Players, Very Minor Code Changes.

“Growth Blight” fey, plants, and animals, start popping up in the wilds of Arelith. Little DM spawned critters that just spice things up, and hint at more to come.

Players attempt to come up with creative solutions. The best ones seem to work, but these solutions don’t last.

There’s an ancient treant that’s been around since the time of giants. It’s seen the ebbs and flows of time, but this time, it believes things have gone too far. The caretakers of the isle have nurtured without respect for death, ignorant to the natural course. This has led to a strange affliction sweeping through its sacred grove. This treant is covered in sores and seeping tumors. A DM spawns this tree in, somewhere in the world, only two one or two players at a time, attempting to beseech them for help. Not required, but for embellishment, one could give it tyrant zombie fog, and maybe the plague animation (all the lil flying insects).

Still. It seeks help, telling passersby, “I am terribly afflicted, and wish to end my suffering, along with this sickness. Please, won’t you lend a hand?” Any adventurers intending to figure out if this is a trick, will find the treant is being truthful, though perhaps there’s a grim resignation and deeper meaning to its words. Whether they help it, or do not, is irrelevant. But let’s hope they do, because that’s way more fun!

The treant needs the heart of a myconid sovereign, and knows of one down in the Underdark (DM can place an item for them to pick-up on its corpse or just leave it up to the players to find a stand-in). If pressed for why it needs this, Cancer-Ent explains that myconids have an inherent connection to Yggdrasil, and this connection will be useful in purging the Growth Blight (positive-energy-cancer). It’s an ancient ritual, and the treant isn’t comfortable sharing more about it with strangers. They just need to know that it will benefit the treant and its flock.

If the players take too long (DM’s got lives after all) the DM could shoot a whisper, saying that the tree won’t be there when they return, and that despite searching, it could be that they never see it again. The DM can try this on as many small numbers of adventuring groups as they wish, but the goal is for this Cancer-Ent to keep a low profile. It doesn’t come out, and isn’t found if sought.

Fey-pact warlocks are another great angle to pursue. The reasons will be revealed later on, but suffice to say, some powerful fey beings wish to see this Treant succeed. So finding fey-pact warlocks in the world, and bestowing this grand mission unto them, would really be spectacular.

If no players bite, then some adventuring NPC’s can simply show up in the underdark to do it themselves. Bonus points if that happens around the same time as some folks are clearing the myconids. If these NPC’s are attacked, have the one with the head escape, but maybe leave a journal one of their corpses. Could have it mention a mythological past for this mercenary’s people. Their ancestors would sail great journeys to find the sacred isle where the roots of Yggdrasil could be found, and drink of its sap. Claiming that it gave some sort of divine blessing. This dead mercenary wonders what a sick Treant could want from such a tree. #plothooks

Carrying on in the same fashion, the Treant wants the primordial ashes of creation, next. It will serve as the fertile soil from which new life will be born. To the Burning Shores! Players will be asked to acquire an urn’s worth of ashen remains from magma giants. Last but not least, the Treant wants water from the River Styx. Once again, in both cases, players needn’t agree to do this. It could be just as interesting for players to experience a band of NPC adventurers (with, or exclusively feylocks!) out in the world, doing it instead. Especially if those adventurer’s try to elicit help. Of course with both of these, making sure to drop those #plothooks

All the while, “Growth Blight” creatures are still making rare appearances in the world.

Later, after all the materials had been gathered, people might see the most curious sight. What looked to be a massive treant, walking out into the ocean, and floating off towards one of the distant islands in the north. This will have to be near the start of the Thaw, as its destination is Skaljard. It would be amusing if the Treant passed by someone out on the ocean, as well, just just peaking into their module space. Was it a sailor’s fish-tale or something else?

Whatever the case, though, it’s in possession of its required component. The Cancer-Ent journeys to the World Root Paths on Skaljard. This will further suggest a connection to Yggdrasil. Because the great tree has its roots in many planes & powers, and with the ancient rite this treant knows, it might steal some natural planar powers. Leach them from the top, and drag them through the roots. The target is Elysium, and the House of Nature. The process takes time, though, and the journey even longer.

During that time, the House of Nature feels the pull. They know what is coming, and are too late to stop it. Perhaps one of their servants on the Prime could save them? That’s a chance that cannot be taken. Mortals are unreliable. In fact, if any players helped the treant, mortals are in part responsible! The House of Nature knows if they do not band together, something will be taken. They will lose a part of who they are.

Lurue and Nobanion. Nobanion, noble as his namesake, sacrifices divinity to Lurue, empowering her further as the zealous, proud deity of talking beasts and fey. Her alignment morphing as a consequence, and so taking on the aspects of LG, NG, and CG. Nobanion is removed as a selectable Deity. Still exists and can be talked about, so no sweeping module changes required. Just requires editing the deity list, and understanding Nobanion as a servant of Lurue. Any NPC's that talk about him, we'll know as ultimately being beholden to Lurue. Players are forced to pick a new deity if they had Nobanion selecteded. Lurue’s listing also changes accordingly to a Lesser Deity, rather than a Demigod. A DM can do a server shout, suggesting a ripple felt through the weave, to represent this.

It’s at this point that some weeping fey servant of Nobanion might beseech the Heartwood Grove, and later the Zhurkwood Grove. It tells them the tragic tale of what has transpired. It tells them that Nobanion is no more (exaggerating details). It tells them that Lurue has taken up his mantle. It tells them to spread the word as far and wide as they can. To muster all the help they might. Because it won’t be too long until this happens again. Whoever is doing this, knows ancient primordial magic, and is somewhere on Skaljard. They must hurry while ice is still thawed! This ought to be the point at which all the previous plot hooks fall into place. Yggdrasil. World Root Paths. Myconid Sovereign. Ashes of Creation. Water from River Styx. Rumors of a treant gathering things for a ritual. A treant being spotted headed off into the ocean towards Skaljard.

If pressed for more, the fey messenger speculates between sobs and sniffles. “The veil between planes that keeps larger powers at bay, and mortal minds in check, it’s at the decree of Ao. The gods will not come to help. What power they could use to interfere is likely preoccupied consolidating power!” It’s at this point that the players either make the silly decision to do nothing (for which there are consequences) or attempt to make a difference. Asking the fey anymore questions simply results in uncontrollable sobs, on its part.

Now for some misdirection. The Treant will be above ground on Skal, hijacking the altar that lurks above the World Root Paths. The wayshrine with four pillars, and a basin full of skulls. It’s what occurs just beneath the surface, that will truly matter. The treant has elicited the help of various fey; dryads, satyrs, ect. They are the ones actually in the World Root Paths, at the underground altar, conducting the ritual. The treant up top is merely channeling and directing the powers they conjure. The treant is also far easier to find, as it’s a fairly prominent location, and so it provides an excellent distraction.

Entreating with the Ent at this point, has better results. It doesn’t care to hide its original purpose. Its life is suffering. It cannot die. Too much life--too much positive energy--has bloated it and turned it into something unnatural. So it will kill itself for the betterment of the world, and equalize the powers of nature in the process. It knows, just like Karsus, that its physical form will not survive the powers it attempts to wield. The result will be its total destruction. Sweet release. But from its death, life upon the prime will be balanced. Combatants attempting to stop it should find killing it impossible. Too much regen and DR to be killed. No removal of disease, nor greater restoration, will cure it. These things simply prolong the inevitable.

Perhaps... if prior to gathering the material components... one of those players the Treant attempted to persuade to its bidding… spoke of plans to cut the disease out surgically? Then in combination with restorative magic, and negative energy poisoning (think, weird form of chemotherapy to balance out the excess positive), they could cure this Growth Blight. And maybe that’s true! But at this point, suffering has maddened the senses of the treant. It knows only its desires, and its desire is his own ritual sacrifice.

Time is of-the-essence, and in the case of the Treant, its out of time. For players, this could be the case as well. The DM’s could have a timer of 1 Hour (or something similar).

So! The ritual below is the key to stopping this entire ordeal. It ought to be a challenging, but very winnable battle, down in the world root paths. One could attempt to steal the myconid sovereign remains (taking a lethal dose of damage as an arc of energy lashes out at them), or simply kill those that conduct the ritual. Alternatively, let’s assume more curious sorts find the ritual area. Upon approach, defenders tell them to halt! To not interfere with their holy mission! It may turn to violence anyways! But, if they reach the ritual site, the fey won’t want to stop the ritual. Perhaps more villainous sorts just watch! They try to learn. They observe the second DM performing the ritual, and pick up mentions of Yggdrasil, siphoning deific lifeforce, cursing spirits of unbridled growth, seeking a balanced life, tearing down the House of Nature, the ashes of creation from which a new house will be born, and the river styx that they shall use to water it, planting their seed, the Woldhart carried within Myconid Sovereigns. That second DM could even server shout it, perhaps suggesting these words ripple across the weave (which would also suggest to any players trying to figure out the Treant angle, that something somewhere else is going on, and they should go try finding that instead).

If the ritual is stopped, the Treant above will notice something is wrong--that the wayshrine is no longer siphoning power. It attempts to go rampaging back into the ocean, attacking anyone in its path, but only so they get out of its way. If successful, it’s never seen from again. Maybe players come up with a creative solution to handling it, though! Binding it away, or ripping its soul from its physical form. Who can say. But whatever the case, it makes like a tree and leafs.

However, if 1 Hour passes and the ritual hasn’t been stopped yet, the Ent is successful. Hellball. Right there on the Ent. It begins disintegrating, blown away with the cold wind, and with its last utterances, a contented sigh as it finally dies. But with it, there is another death. Gwaeron Windstrom is no more. Removed as a selectable deity. Keep any relics of the past that mention him. Gwaeron still existed, and could still be worshiped. It just doesn't offer the power it once did. Any players that had him selected, must pick another. It might not effect how the world looks, but it can at least have an effect on players! Any relics suggesting Gwaeron's prior station, just become relics of the past. If there were any module temples dedicated to Gwaeron, players can safely asses, "Oh, they're clinging to the past. They won't accept the truth." Or maybe, that they're lying! Even if such areas exist, they don't require immediate change. A temple would likely not close its doors overnight. There are memories there, relationships built around it. You don't just abandon that. So over time, as those areas are remembered / realized, the NPC's there can get axed, and replaced by hostile fey! Representing the transition over time, as those places become gradually abandoned, then reclaimed by nature (or something akin to nature).

Pruning the world tree like this (see what I did there?) would reinforce certain themes, and highlight special roleplay opportunities. It’s a time of mourning, but also of new beginnings, as suddenly these less nuanced religions are getting a lot of attention. People will want to play with them as a consequence. Several churches can rise up and offer to take in those lost faithful. Mielikki in particular would make a great substitute for Gwaeron Windstrom. Lurue now in place of Nobanion. It’s the natural cycle of life, as old things die and new things are born from them.

But it does not end there! What is born in their place?

The Treant’s tugging at the roots of Yggdrasil created a vacuum of meta-space. One that it intended to fill, or did fill, depending on how the plot played out up to this point. An elemental pocket for our world, to contain all its excesses, all its brightest lights, and darkest darks. It’s in hopes that the world might not suffer the way it had. But this new pocket, imperfect in its design… can become prey to powers of a similar attunement. The scheming Faerie saw this event as an opportunity, and played a hand in making sure it happened.

In one of the few agreements between both the Seelie and Unseelie, they banded together in a vy for joint power that both believed could be taken advantage of, by outperforming their rival court. In either case, they agreed that their competition would ensure that the natural spirits were better balanced than when left up to the mortals alone. The Faerie Plane becomes even more closely knit with the Prime, than it was before!

This new shift in the balance of planar powers might see several fey oriented deities raised in prominence. Mechanically, just meaning they’re a lesser deity, if they were a demigod, prior. They’re an intermediate deity if they were a lesser deity, prior. Ect. Ect.

Another perfect mechanical compliment? Assuming warlock is eventually changed (those poor feylocks need the help), or becomes its own class, this would be the perfect catalyst! The in-character reason as to why these things suddenly changed.

Another perfect mechanical compliment? New spells! I’m sure more new spells will be added. If spell-lists are planned to be changed for any classes, or new spells added (both especially of the nature variety), then this is the perfect justification!

On the warlock angle: elves originate from the plane of Faerie. Could also consolidate one or two fey powers with elvish deities. Really, there’s tons of opportunity. Maybe fill in with a new archfey! Make that palette more colorful.

Likewise, maybe this cosmological shakeup gives Devils & Demons an opportunity to exploit! Their warlock mechanics change too, presumably. The meta-space vacuum left by the Treants ancient rite--the elemental pocket it sought to create? Perhaps its limited capacity can only be taken advantage of by small, planar powers. Its proximity to the prime, the edicts of Ao, and the veil between planes, still keeps larger powers at bay. But for those small enough to slip through? There’s now space enough for greater power to be channeled, and therefore influence the Prime! Or, maybe. Some more gods have simply been killed / consolidated. Demon Lords devouring each other, becoming bigger and badder (good opportunity to flesh out their personal metaphysical representations, and explore what it means to be ‘demonic’--very little to change in this regard). On the Infernal side, perhaps the Devils made deals with a gods who afraid of losing power! Like Gwaeron Windstrom. So he gets removed as a selectable deity, either way! But by doing so, this god sacrificed a portion of the divinity / allegiance, such that they now fuel the Infernal System.

Cascading effects! And most mechanical changes were those that were planned on anyways!

So did the faerie plan this all along? Were they simply opportunists? Were the inhabitants of Arelith responsible for the Growth Blight? Was it a more nefarious design, like Talona? Players could speculate! Maybe someone more creative than I has a better justification!

What couldn’t be speculated about, though, are the effects. What We See Is What We Get. New mechanics, like warlocks or spell changes? Deity list changes. No more Growth Blight creatures being summoned. In-character explorations of what portfolios actually represent/are (and therefore the nature of divinity). Attention given less popular deities. And roleplay inspiration for days to follow!

[magistrasa]

I totally understand the hesitance on the part of the devs and DMs to put forward cosmological changes - I know that devs and DMs mostly go about their contributions to the server on an individual basis and so the idea of a bunch of our volunteers coordinating to make something like this happen would probably be new and uncharted territory and I can sympathize with the daunting difficulty something like that would present - because something like that is difficult to do well, and of course we'd all want it to be done well.

That being said, this write-up affected me. I literally got teary-eyed reading through this because of how awesome this storyline sounds, and how much thought and care went into coming up with it, even though it's coming off the cuff. I can only imagine how much fun it would be to play through this scenario, and how it would impact even just the people I know of and can think of in-game. If anything resembling that sort of scale and impact happens on Arelith, I can say I would be beyond honored and ecstatic to be part of it.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

There were six months of angst when the Devs changed a town that they personally didn't even want to destroy. People quit the server because the change impacted their characters' stories in ways they couldn't ignore- this didn't even touch their mechanics.

I definitively approve of the idea of some kind of story progression for the server on a macro-organized scale, but when thousands of setting-dependent characters already exist, altering parts of that setting piecemeal is absolutely and without fail going to alienate a percentage of the players whose concepts just got invalidated- because they were told they could play X-thing and now due to circumstances beyond their control (some event they didn't even necessarily get to see happen) their concept is now "old lore" and invalid.

Yes, there are smaller things where this isn't necessarily the case- but let's touch on one brief concept mentioned here, the idea of say Mielikki replacing Gwaeron. That's great, but maybe someone really wanted to play a devout follower of Gwaeron, and maybe because they hate the memery of Drizzt (whom also worships Mielikki) they absolutely loathe anything to do with Drizzt-like Mielikki, who's unfortunately the next best thing. So now they have to change concepts/cope with a divine replacement that's only tangentially representative of their original concept.

I'm a big fan of an Arelith-established history that can run contrary to the established setting without invalidating it.

For a very long time now from both an OOC and IC perspective, I've approached Arelith as an almost pocket-plane/demi-plane within Toril, that has some morphic traits pertaining to time, magic, and alignment.

This allows things that are counter to the otherwise canon lore (like the Astrolabe's cosmological setting) to exist on Arelith without invalidating everything a PC comes into the setting knowing - it's not that the PC was wrong to think that certain planes were or weren't arranged in a certain way, that's just not how it works on Arelith, for reasons and history that you can seek to discover; major things like this are the sorts of things I'd like to see actual "fact lore" on for our history, so that scholar PC's can pursue academic and historian RP surrounding such topics with a frame of reference for what is and isn't right -> you can't claim to academically pursue something's history if no factual (read as: something that can be corroborated from different sources to confirm it's not one person's delusions) history exists for reference, that's called making thing up.

This also allows my character to "cross the bubble" between Arelith and Mainland Faerun, where he has a family established in Silverymoon, still fixed sometime in the 1370s-1380s DR time period despite the fact that his elven father first arrived on Arelith also in roughly 1372DR, and why he got to spend time with his children while they remained children despite also spending decades on Arelith while they grew up in Silverymoon.

This would also even explain how, even if the Crown of Horns were "destroyed" here on Arelith, it would hypothetically be possible for Myrkul's essence to escape back through the planar bubble to mainland Faerun, reconstituting the crown in the process and allowing his essence to continue wreaking lore-appropriate carnage through necromantic minions as per the setting.

[magistrasa]

when thousands of setting-dependent characters already exist, altering parts of that setting piecemeal is absolutely and without fail going to alienate a percentage of the players whose concepts just got invalidated- because they were told they could play X-thing and now due to circumstances beyond their control (some event they didn't even necessarily get to see happen) their concept is now "old lore" and invalid.

Calling it "invalid" really doesn't feel right. In a scenario like what's above, with gods dying out and merging portfolios, those concepts are evolving. And evolution can breathe new life into a story. I'm going to be honest - I've never heard of the deities that are named in this hypothetical - but I found the story so interesting that I went out of my way to look at their info and see what they're about. This highlights the fact that narrative development in interesting ways can really bring attention to oft-overlooked avenues of storytelling.

You think there's going to be angst over having to integrate into the faith of this new deity wearing the mantle of their old patron, or difficulty in finding a different deity that represents their values? Great! In this hypothetical, where deity deletion is a world event that can be participated in and understood in-character, those are feelings that would be absolutely amazing to see explored through roleplay. I daresay I'm probably not the only one who hasn't heard of these gods before, and I imagine there would be a sort of excitement to playing a character who focused on a lesser-known, unappreciated faith - because now, for the first time, people actually care about the god you're telling them about, instead of smiling and nodding and politely feigning shallow interest by saying, "That's nice. I worship Chauntea. Anyways, let's talk about other things." (Which is an entirely understandable response because if you've never heard of a particular deity IC or OOC and there's very little material with which to research them then it's kinda hard to have an engaging conversation about them without playing a prosthelytizer.) It also creates new and interesting dynamics between members of the two religions, who now have to form one religion, whereas previously they had little association with one another. Not to mention how it opens up new roleplay concepts in the form of - I don't know what to call them - holy avengers? People who carry the memory and message of their beloved dead deity, who can mourn and remember the loss and share the lessons imparted from it.

The point is, there's so much good that can come from an idea like this, and I honestly don't see any negatives. I just don't agree with your assessment of the fallout. To say it "invalidates" characters and concepts is incredibly narrow-minded. If there are characters that are somehow made "unplayable" by the change... Well, sorry, but don't play them. Not everything deserves to be preserved because it happens to exist - just ask kensai. "But I like this character and i don't want to delete them!" Well, clearly you didn't like the character as much as you claim you do, because a well-rounded persona that you actually enjoy playing with and feel an attachment to wouldn't be so hyperfixated on their deity selection that they're utterly inflexible to a changing world. And players who are so obsessively controlling over "their" story that they can't handle any change to their expectations probably need that change the most, when you think about it. (Not to make judgment calls on a person that doesn't exist, lol, but usually these are the kinds of people who trash talk their fellow roleplayers in OOC channels for taking entirely reasonable IC actions, simply because those IC actions somehow disrupted their personal power fantasy. These people are immature and toxic and I think the mindset that leads to that behavior can and should be rejected to benefit the community.)

I was going to speak towards the topic of scholarly roleplay but I think I need more time to sit on my thoughts with that one. As someone who's gone neck-deep into that RP corner, I have too many opinions for my own good. All I'll say for now is that the Summoning & Conjuration book in the loot matrix is a war crime and I'm mailing my grievances with its sinful existence to the Geneva Convention, and to the Pope for good measure.

[Gouge Away]

Practically speaking if I'm playing 4e or 5e D&D I want the whole experience, mechanics AND setting. Spellplague and 3/4 of the deities dying is a cool concept and I'm on board with playing it but it doesn't appeal to me to do so here, where it would be a bastardized version of 4e-ish lore with 3.x edition combat and classes and spells. I'd rather just find a PnP 4th or 5th edition game if I wanted a more modern version of D&D.

I'm happy with this very retro 20-year old game being set in the edition of its era. It's like a period piece as far as I'm concerned. A TV show permanently set in the 1980s.

[Kuma]

in essence what im getting at is that saying "someone can come here after they played baldurs gate" is a little bit outdated nowadays, and that we're already well beyond the point of no return regarding needing (increasingly obscure) supplementary reading materials to fully understand the world. and it's only gonna get worse.

It's not just Baldur's Gate, it's also Neverwinter Nights, and all of its premium modules, including any more that may be yet to come. I'm definitely making a creative choice to keep Arelith in the same setting, as it always has been.

Certainly very small changes are more manageable though, but I do want to limit just how how much specific Areltih stuff players have to read - sure there is already a lot, mechanically, but to me that doesn't justify doing it for the world too.

Witch's Wake, ShadowGuard, and Kingmaker are not set in Forgotten Realms whatsoever, and Infinite Dungeons is of dubious value in this consideration. This means only 2 premium modules and 2 recent DLC are actually of use there. Furthermore, the new Dark Dreams of Furiae DLC module is set in Planescape, and the events are a companion piece to Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, a FR based P&P module that is set in 5E (and also looks dope), so the Beamdog DLCs going forward can't be relied on as a setting resource either. I also question the use of the games as an authoritative source of information given they're difficult to readily reference, often concern very specific events and are presented "in character", and that the games that would impact Arelith's setting only offer very specific snapshots of events and places. they are not a substitute for a campaign setting or accurate wikia.

(tangentially, arelith's promotional materials and campaigns always seemed to be about "playing D&D", and that's going to encourage a very different kind of person nowadays than baldurs gate boomers, now that D&D is a perfectly acceptable mainstream activity. they're younger than NWN, some of them. i'd further make an argument that arelith is about as far removed as one can possibly get from "a game of D&D", but that's not a useful discussion here)

The only way to gain useful and consistent 3.x Forgotten Realms campaign setting knowledge (which is a necessary tool of a collaborative and consistent narrative experience) is by spending a hell of a lot of money on out of print books, or commit actual criminal crimes to obtain them, which, when combined with the tracts of mechanical server errata (new classes, spells, mechanics, module systems) already mounts up to a hefty burden of stuff that's good to know and understand. Progressing the timeline in our own "universe" (including allowing for cosmological changes, perhaps) is a drop in the bucket by comparison, and is also something amia and ravenloft have done without alienating new players in a measurable way (amia's decline can be traced to other factors), and can be argued instead to allow for feeling that Arelith is a part of a greater world, and isn't the whole of it.

An argument could be made that we shouldn't increase the "barrier to entry" any more than it is, but ongoing development does this and its benefits outweigh inconsistencies with default game behaviour. I think the opportunities that being open to the idea of "Arelith's Forgotten Realms, based on 3.x edition D&D" outweighs its burden of an extra page on the wiki with a timeline and cosmological corrections. The main thrust of my argument is that we're already well in the depths of obscurantism when it comes to deviating from the current - and increasingly popular and mainstream - D&D edition, as well as the actual game we're using. If people are coming to arelith from bg2 fresh faced and genuinely ill at ease with the Great Wheel being "correct", then i'll be very surprised. (on the other hand, the World Tree only came about after the time BG2 is set, which is, er, pre-3rd edition, so riddle me that one) the games take place in pivotal moments in setting history, which isn't particularly useful or relevant for us. An ex-Neverwintan militiaman who comes to Arelith and speaks about the Wailing Death will probably get more odd looks than someone calling the Barrens of Doom & Despair (pre-4th Ed plane) "Banehold" (4th Ed).

We're not 5E, and we absolutely should not progress linearly through 4th to it, but we're increasingly loosely based on 3.x and this is generally acknowledged. By way of example, the construction of the Astrolabe and its purpose renders the Great Wheel de facto the correct model, even if it can still technically be debated ICly; our Warlock doesn't resemble its P&P class mechanically or narratively; we have homebrewed classes, monsters, items (there's literally regular firearms in FR, why did we need another pratchett reference with gonnes lmao) and a million other little changes to better suit the visions of dev teams and dm quests and sometimes awkward little accidents* over nearly two decades. This is good. This is normal. This is what P&P campaigns do, after all. We've already deviated onto an Arelith server canon, and i think formalising it by being unafraid to take the setting in new directions has a lot of potential.

in short: i believe we have far more space to lean into our own setting than you think, that we're already doing so in a far more visible sense than you think, and that your worries about players being put off by having to read walls of text are misplaced. to truly get to grips with the setting we use and be inspired by it you already have to somehow acquire 30 year old literature, argue with people in discord #lore channels, and engage with 15 years of module-based and player-based mis/interpretations of it already in the server.

if they've made it this far, then they can handle carefully managed, purposeful, and engaging setting divergence into a formalised server canon.


* (artos, who i suspect grew up playing 2E and the Great Wheel cosmology, made the astrolabe, and i contributed to parts of its areas and design along with a few others, and none of us really noticed it was the "wrong" version, and then the plot made it very important to the setting beyond Arelith, so, woops, i guess it's now already part of server canon)

ps: i dont think its going to get any easier when baldur's gate 3 (which will be based in 5E) comes out and introduces a new generation of players who won't understand why tieflings are rare and we don't know what dragonborn are

[Irongron]

I guess I still just don't see the appeal. If we want to have major historical events, Arelith is large enough to have them based here rather than in the surrounding setting.

Sure it would be fun for the select few who got to play through the awesome 'death of a god' plotline, but for everyone that comes afterwards it would probably not be anything more than an irritation - adding to a growing list of server caveats they'd be obliged to read though.

If it came to a choice between home-brew lore or converting to 5e, I'd rather take server down for 6 months to do the latter.

[satan]

As a player of a firbolg main, this has been a bit of a tick in my brain.

If there is no feywild, why does my giant get metad as a 'fey'(ie why is the racial type fey and not giant) on my distinctly 3.5e looking firbolg?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I should clarify about what I think we need for the "1 page of lore" -

Absolutely ignore everything that is after 3.5. If it's not in the *Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting*, just ignore it.

What I WOULD want is:

- a brief acknowledgement that a significant amount of time has passed since 1372 DR, and in that time, nothing really important has happened on continental Faerun, that for all intent and purpose, it's "frozen in the status quo"
- that Bane is alive, Bhaal is dead, and some of Arelith-specific's clarifications
- some "big events" on Arelith have tied it to continental Faerun WITHOUT impacting the general "lore" of Faerun. Stuff like the Crown of Horns, and the influences of the Nelanther on the islands. The dominance of Amn (which isn't super apparent anymore). The relationship between Myon and Evermeet. The Radiant Heart being present. etc.

Those kinds of things. A snapshot overview of Big Stuff on the Island, that tie in Arelithian lore with 3.5 FR.

[Kuma]

seven said what i was basically trying to get across without tearing into the supposed validity of the old CRPGs as a touchstone in 2020

that said, some of those things are also just PC conjecture, and/or reflective of whatever influence the DMs happen to give those things at the time.

the best theory i've come up with is that amn allows arelith to war with itself (and to nominally have an independent "king") without turning it into a real colony because the real value of arelith is as a port between Faerun and the New World, and letting the crazy adventurers play at elections and warfare, and also contain the weird crazy stuff that happens on arelith instead of devoting valuable Amnian manpower is just an added bonus.

this explains the long history of arelith/cordor as an effective client state of amn that was "repealed" when Vetinari/Provine stopped being in office, but the full might of their bombardment fleet was still quietly on hand to quell the uppity natives that were upsetting the status quo too much.

Whether this is "true" or not is, as is often the case with arelith, more consensus reality manifesting into commonly understood "lore" until actively contradicted by a DM, or retconned by a module update, rather than "known actual server lore". there's value in codifying it formally, i think.

If there is no feywild, why does my giant get metad as a 'fey'(ie why is the racial type fey and not giant) on my distinctly 3.5e looking firbolg?

a preference for their 4e lore over 3.x, despite the fact that without the feywild they therefore do not have any lore and 3.x having comprehensive lore for them. so idk tbh

it's one factor of some updates that i'm not a fan of, that some classes/races are presented as very far removed from their source material (firbolgs and hexblades being two easy examples) but it's not up for discussion, so