Druids LG.

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HeyLadyOfDecay
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Druids LG.

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:14 pm

Wondering why Druids can't be lawfull aswell as good.

LN is fine, NG go for it. LG EVIIIIL!!!

So, I wonder why that is.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Druids LG.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:20 pm

To be fair they can't be LE or CE or CG either. I believe (though I may need to be corrected) that their requirement to remain on the 'neutral' in the grand scheme of things - to serve 'the balence' and 'nature.' Thus a character who is Lawful Good will be both too bound by the requirements to stick to some sort of code (which doesn't exist in nature) and also to be entirely benevolent (again, which nature is not.)

This is just a theory though.
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KeldonDonovans
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Re: Druids LG.

Post by KeldonDonovans » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:44 pm

Grumpycat is spot on. The whole idea of a druid is maintaining balance. Lawful Neutral and Chaotic Neutral druids would be preserving the balance between good and evil. Neutral good and neutral evil would be preserving the balance between law and chaos. A true neutral druid would seek balance in all things. Going to the four corners of the alignment (LG, LE, CE, CG) leaves you no balance, and a druid without balance is just a mage that wanted some nature spells, not a druid.

Archnon
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Re: Druids LG.

Post by Archnon » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:46 pm

I also always try to think about what alignment restrictions prevent in terms of mechanics as the game was balanced originally around that as much as lore. Here we are importantly preventing paladin druids. While I'm not sure what combination would be dangerous with a Nature Crusader build, it is worth thinking about.

Gouge Away
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Re: Druids LG.

Post by Gouge Away » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:31 pm

Maybe though I think a lot of it is inertia (that's how it's always been) and/or it just feels right. Druids have always been neutral, paladins have always been LG in D&D so that's how it is.

Anyway the balance explanation makes sense, druids don't do extremes, nature is inherently neutral. But you can play a LG shaman. Shamans love extremes.

HeyLadyOfDecay
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Re: Druids LG.

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:09 am

I researched, Forgive me.

First, This made me lol:

THE MEANING OF LAW AND CHAOS IN DUNGEONS & DRAGONS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS TO GOOD AND EVIL

by Gary Gygax in the February 1976 issue of the Strategic Review

Druids serve only themselves and nature, they occasionally make human sacrifice, but on the other hand they aid the folk in agriculture and animal husbandry. Druids are, therefore, neutral — although slightly predisposed towards evil actions.

From what I got:
in the early days when Good and Evil, Law and Chaos were sides in a cosmic conflict instead of moral leanings, your alignment was literally which side(s) you supported. Druids had to remain neutral because their loyalty is to nature, not any particular side in the war.

4th edition DnD got rid of alignments all togetter, So that is another extreem if you ask me since it also hits paladins.

Anyway, I think personally that "Stepping away from the cosmic conflict", Druids could be LG or CE cause nature isn't always neutral
nor is protecting it. A CE druid could wage war against humanity sparing no life in his quest to nature domination, Even when opposed by other druids. A LG druid could spread awareness for the importance of nature, Be kind to people and hold to the laws as he travels from town to town, Offering advice in agriculture and deal with wild animals in a peacefull manner. -my 2 cnts

Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Druids LG.

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:54 pm

The four corner alignments (LG, CG, LE, CE) do not necessitate this kind of cosmic understanding, are certainly the most predisposed to it.

While I sometimes find it difficult to distinguish LG from NG, it's best to just conceptualize the 4 Corners as being alignments of extremity and not moderation, and druidic roleplay often hinges on moderation through their philosophies on the Balance and natural systems.
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Drogo Gyslain
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Re: Druids LG.

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:20 pm

It's easier to understand by seeing The Alignment Chart as what it is.

Law and Morality.

In some version of a Druid's life, you must be neutral and protect balance in some regard. You can be a Morally Evil person, yet Law and order are fluid, so you maintain a Law vs. Chaotic balance, while being Morally evil.

As opposed to a Druid who has a high sense of duty to uphold rules and laws, but Morally sees good and bad as equally opposing forces to be balanced against one another, resulting in LN.

Druid's who see all the goodness in the world but the rules and laws are subject to interpritation, and may be helpful or hindering, results with a NG Druid.

And Druid's who see the laws as rediculous, and will throw caution to the wind and don't care one way or another if what they do helps or harms gives you CN.

Very few druids play True Neutral, grey Druid's who are both Morally, and Lawfully balanced do exist, but they are very interesting to play. They are equally as liable to tell you that rules are good, and then hell ball you in the face for disrupting the balance.
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Gouge Away
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Re: Druids LG.

Post by Gouge Away » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:18 pm

At the heart of it I think a certain detachment is expected from the class and LG/CE etc are just more extreme than druids are intended to be.

And alignment discussions rarely change anyone's minds since so much of it is philosophy 101 and we can all write paragraph after paragraph justifying any interpretation and we're all right and wrong. But I doubt something as entrenched as druid neutrality is going to change, especially when we have shamans to cover that ground.

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Re: Druids LG.

Post by Hinty » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:22 pm

Good/Evil Law/Chaos, these are abstracts, creations of civilization, they have no place in nature and as such are more or less irrelevant to a druid. (Unless Outsiders, living embodiment of these concepts come to the Material plane and attempt to remain or corrupt it to their way, in which case it is the duty of druids to remove them as they do not belong.) The druid does not care if a nation is good or evil, so long as it treats the land with respect.

While it is perfectly fine for a druid to have some leaning towards these abstracts, (the kindly druid that attempts to heal any wounded animal they find vs the one who secretly enjoys killing the wounded to remove the weak from the pack), none of them are anything to do with the Balance of nature and the land, and so long as they do not allow their personality to stop them doing their work (The kindly druid who refuses to kill any animal even if the population is spiraling and damaging the balance) they are largely irrelevant. A character who is of a corner alignment is just someone whose mentality is not really suited to the role of druid. These concepts are too wrapped up in their personality to truly understand the detached matter of fact way a druid must perform their duties.

You can rationalize it either as them just lacking the ability to quite understand it all, or, they are too far over the line for any druid to accept them and teach them. After all, to become a druid, you have to have been taught by a druid.

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Re: Druids LG.

Post by DM Rex » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:12 pm

It's 3.5 alignment restrictions.

Monks have to lawful, barbarians have to be anything but lawful.
Assassins, blackguards, Zhentarim, all evil.
Warlock, pale master* non good.
Paladin LG only. Harpers, non evil.
And of course Druids are anything with neutral in it. NG, LN, TN, CN, or NE.

But I do like the interpretations that coincide with this discussion.

Drogo Gyslain
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Re: Druids LG.

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:00 pm

Hinty wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:22 pm
Good/Evil Law/Chaos, these are abstracts, creations of civilization, they have no place in nature and as such are more or less irrelevant to a druid.
This is very, patently wrong.

The Nature of the world surrounds the 'natural order' and it's balance.

Law and Chaos is an eternal struggle between the complete anarchy and disarray of the world, and an orderly sustainable existence. O the left hand side of lawful, you have those deities, beings and denizens that live by codes, honor and have a high sense of duty and purpose. Those who often create and devise grand projects such as town building, rules, legislation and government. Building upon a lawful and coordinated existence, and removing the chaotic elements that would seek to detract and distract from the world and it's push to a just and honorbound existence. Those Paladins, lawmakers, and people who see this order are highly attracted to combating and culturing those who can't exist in any other way.

On the converse, Chaotic, and oftentimes instinctually based persons exist on the opposite end. Beings be they with low wisdom and intelligence who live with no need for rules to govern or laws to live by. Personal codes mean nothing if they cannot grant that which should already be free and flowing. Regardless if it's giving charity and helping those in need, or brutally stabbing someone because it makes them feel good, the life lived by one who is against the lawful constraints of the world need not be a mongrel or beast, but it can exist in the selfish desires of a highborn noble, rebelling against his parents cause, wishing for a simpler, free life experience in the face of an ordered world, or a ogre who simply wishes to do as he does, and smash the head of a nearby deer because of the pretty red squish.

Law and Chaos are opposite sides of how the world works, and as such is the same for good and evil.

Nature has proven time and time again that the moral fight between being Good or Evil goes on in many societies and many phylums, from Humans, to ants. Being able to feel empathy, or reject it and make decisions to harm and hurt, beyond simple survival, is the core necessity of many determining factors of what constitutes 'conscious thought'. The ability to perceive an action as being either Right or Wrong, beyond that of simple instinct and drive is ingrained in many beings. Dogs and Cats are good partners to study in this, for even though they cannot speak, their emotions can be shown. A Beaten Dog will tuck its tail and run from those that abuse it, and a loved housecat will come to those who treat it well, and give it loving affection.

The decision to give such abuse or affection, goes into a choice. There is a hard set, feeling, that people have built into them that tells them what an action is, whether it is good or bad, based on consequences of a society.

In a truly chaotic world with no law and order, it would be easy to see that nothing matters, Good or Evil are just constructs. But coming from that of a mind that sees the world as a shattered glass, those rules of law could hold it together.

All of this, is important to those Druids that walk the lands. To bring balance is to see that which is Good or evil, Right or Wrong, Law or chaos, and to act as a medium, between the natural world and it's delicate existence alongside that which would spurn forth progress, momentum for change, and expansion. The city walls that ever grow, the deforestation to build a town, the burning of fields to replenish the soil, the overhunting of the local deer population, the cultivation of shrubs and herbs to replenish the foodstuffs of the rabbits... The Druid sees that which makes the natural world without interference go, and acts to correct or maintain that balance. To create opportunities to teach others to respect that nature, or lash out and kill those that would not listen. A Druid's life's work, is dedicated to the love of the land, and to be the bridge between these concepts, and it is why it is core to their roles in life, and the alignment chart.

A Druid that has become extreme, who wants nothing but Chaotic Goodness, a World lacking of both Evil and Law, destabilizes. For there is no balance to drive forward that natural progress, and no evil that decays the world spurning forth a cycle of renewal. Because why death and killing may be seen by many as evil, to a druid it is nature's repeating cycle of rebirth. For where one act of death, be it natural or murder, is committed, an act of life or rebirth is to balance it out.

A Druid that becomes similarly extreme who desires nothing but Lawful Evil, and supports a world that would tyrannically oppose any form of non lawful or outside thinking under pain of death or heavy taxation, pushes progress at the point of a sword and with no regard for trampling on the lives and wellbeing of the underlings beneath will face the same fate.

With that, Balance is necessary, and it is holy. To represent that connection between two points of view is nothing short of a life's work for some druids of the land. And to say that they are nothing more than constructs, is just chaotic propaganda.
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chris a gogo
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Re: Druids LG.

Post by chris a gogo » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:37 pm

Wasn't going to weigh in but here goes.

Druids are concerned with the natural world and seeing that tomorrow follows today doesn't matter if tomorrow has evil or good in it makes no difference to the druid so long as the land and the creatures in it thrive.

Good and Evil Law and Chaos are constructs of intelligence, an animal doesn't understand such things as such they do not matter to a druid as druids are the protectors of the natural world.
So in the listed examples of LG and CE druids the logic is flawed neither is acting in a way to protect the lands, the laws of man are meaningless because they are only applicable to creatures that created them, the concepts or domination again is a human concept the natural world creatures have territory only as long as they can protect it and do not seek larger than they need, so conquering/domination is not applicable to a druids nature/goals.

The examples in fact suit other classes the good lawful one would fit a cleric, as a cleric cares what people think there aim is to increase the deities faith and teach creatures of intelligence the correct way to live.
The CE dominator could be almost anything a warrior or a mage, but it's the ideology that matters and it does not fit within the realms of a druids.

The class system exists so when picking a concept you then need to fit that into the correct class, not try and shoe horn the idea into a class it's not suited to.

Peace out.

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Re: Druids LG.

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:19 am

Druid philosophy explained reminds me of how absolutely nuts (and alien) it can be.

It is based off of obvious interpretations of Celtic history and culture, but then totally infused with some weird metaphysical new age animalist environmentalism.

Probably a reasonable position to take is that a LG druid probably is to come into less conflict with LG friends, and many LG characters are paladins or clerics, who are very divine in nature, and who often call upon celestial intervention, and planar intervention into the Material Plane is a no-go (although somehow summoning from the Elemental Planes is ok), ergo, LG druids not a thing.

None of it really makes a lot of sense. Alignment in 3.5 Forgotten Realms is both about internal character-specific alignment, as well as broader cosmic alignment. We have to have good/evil/law/chaos for the whole planar structure, deitiy thing to work. In the Forgotten Realms.
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