Leira and Shadow Mages

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Gouge Away
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Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Gouge Away » Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:02 am

Leira (CN, CE) T&D, Magic - Symbol: A cloudy gray triangle of mist, point downward - portfolio - deception, illusion, mist, shadows - worshippers: illusionists, liars

Shortly after the Time of Troubles - the God of Murder duped the goddess of Lies and struck her down and thus won her portfolios and most of her followers. Cyric, of course, has largely won over most of her continental followers but in Nimbral and Samarach her worship remains strong, where the question of whether or not their prayers are answered by Lord Cyric is not an issue.
Any chance this aspect could be a deity option for shadow mages, especially considering it "may" be Cyric?

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Kobayashimaru
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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Kobayashimaru » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:38 am

Would like to see Leira as an option. :D

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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by fading » Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:40 pm

Leira would be a nice addition. That said, may I also suggest Shargaas as well? The orc god of darkness. http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Shargaas

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Red Ropes
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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Red Ropes » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:09 pm

Seems like all of the new !not Shar entries would make sense too. I totally forgot about this. Bats what say you?

(Also Shargass seems like someone that'd fit as well. A god of shadows, death, treachery, darkness and so forth. I even recall he has ties to Shar.)

deity 117 - shargaas
deity 194 - leira
deity 195 - ibrandul
deity 196 - eshowdow

?
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Hinty
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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Hinty » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:49 pm

Could use some clarification on HOW these followers of other gods are getting access to Shars most closely kept secret.

I mean, are they all supposed to be loyal minions and thus obliged to help followers of Shar?
Are some, such as Mask for example whom is most definitely not chummy with Shar in the slightest, accessing it without her knowledge/permission and thus likely to be on a "hunt down and kill" list for all Sharrans?

Also, since followers of Ibrandul are unaware of the fact that Shar is granting their spells, would they react well to being granted access to a source of magic that is blatantly restricted to evil forces?

If there is one area Areliths team are a little lacking, its in giving necessary lore behind mechanical changes.



As for Leira, I would LOVE to see her make an actual comeback. I mean, of all the gods that have supposedly died only to resurface in one for or another, surely the goddess of lies and deception should be high on that list. In fact, as far as I am aware, no one has claimed her Portfolio of Mist, and the gods are not prone to leaving portfolios unclaimed, so that would suggest that she is still out there in a much reduced form as the Goddess of Mists still.

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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by fading » Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:45 pm

Hinty wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:49 pm
Could use some clarification on HOW these followers of other gods are getting access to Shars most closely kept secret.

I mean, are they all supposed to be loyal minions and thus obliged to help followers of Shar?
Are some, such as Mask for example whom is most definitely not chummy with Shar in the slightest, accessing it without her knowledge/permission and thus likely to be on a "hunt down and kill" list for all Sharrans?

Also, since followers of Ibrandul are unaware of the fact that Shar is granting their spells, would they react well to being granted access to a source of magic that is blatantly restricted to evil forces?

If there is one area Areliths team are a little lacking, its in giving necessary lore behind mechanical changes.



As for Leira, I would LOVE to see her make an actual comeback. I mean, of all the gods that have supposedly died only to resurface in one for or another, surely the goddess of lies and deception should be high on that list. In fact, as far as I am aware, no one has claimed her Portfolio of Mist, and the gods are not prone to leaving portfolios unclaimed, so that would suggest that she is still out there in a much reduced form as the Goddess of Mists still.
I believe the Shadow Weave used to be a closely guarded secret but is no longer so. It makes perfect sense that worshippers of different faiths would use it, at a price. Vhaeraun worshippers in particular have an extensive tradition of utilizing the shadow weave.
"The Church of Shar expelled its beguilers, no longer finding any use for their abilities. The primary task of the beguilers of Shar was to conceal the existence of the Shadow Weave. When the "Lady of Loss" revealed its existence, openly flaunting her masterful creation, their usefulness waned. The beguilers were forced out of the church, sometimes violently."
Source: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp? ... c/20070214

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Red Ropes
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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Red Ropes » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:53 pm

^--- It is what they said.

In all technicality post Time of Troubles ANYONE could use the Shadow Weave. As we drew closer to the 4e Shar was becoming more and more of a presence in the realms as people began adopting it. Allied faiths and churches were using it to spurn Mystra or gain distance from Lolth.

She wasn't hiding it anymore - and hilariously gave the order to kill anyone trying to gatekeep it in her church LOL.

We just decided to expand the list so people could actually enjoy the class and not having to think of it in any sort of devotional way to Shar, because, she doesn't really require that anyone. It's just the premium package. We also still restrict it as to avoid weird, snow flakey things that probably would never happen.

Such as an outright Selunite being a Shadow Mage. Or a Mystran. Or whatever.

The list is focused around deities who have direct relationships with Shar, alliances with her church, and or are parts of her.
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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by BHR55 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:49 pm

In 1372 as the Shadovar returned the Shadow weave was still very much an unknown, even to Cyric who was still trying to figure out how the Princes of Shade were messing with Mystra's chosen and the Phaerimm. She doesn't ally with Bane and Cyric until 1374, and in the years before that Cyric was actively trying to "steal" the shadow weave from her thinking that it was controlled by the Karse stone. During these years the Church of Shar was still very much killing persons for their use of the Shadow weave against what the church perceived as misuse of her weave, and few would admit to using it as the source of their magic.

The fact that weave use -> shadow weave use is a one way transition(permanent), it was always meant to be a corrupting influence to further her goals and grip over mortals. Since you lose you ability to cast spells if you decide its no longer for you. The "everyone knows about it" perspective is very much an Arelith feature, partly due to mechanics and the timeline drift imo. Dark Moon heratics for instance trying to 'use' it for the good of Selune(even though the believers think both gods are actually one) shouldn't happen. Since that was set up as a ploy to gather the weak of both Selune and Shar and kill them all together. Their knowing about the shadow weave at all would be somewhat suspect, and the followers were denied entry into either gods divine realm post death.

For the purpose of adding these to Arelith, I am indifferent.

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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Red Ropes » Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:40 am

Hey there folks. The following deities / powers will be added to the Shadowmage list because they're either aspects of one of the allowed gods (specifically shar) or are those who have the Darkness Domain & Shadowcasters involved in their church.

Shargaas, Leira, Ibrandul, Eshowdow, Graz'zt, Harlot's Coin, Merrshaulk, and Lolth.
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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Red Ropes » Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:37 pm

This is now live.
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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Apothys » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:57 am

In the same way Leira has been added as a deity that could or could not be actually gaining power from Cyric.

Could we bring back Bhaal and Myrkul? These cultists do exist and still follow there old gods, OF course this would be with the OOC knowledge that Cyric is really running the show. Or maybe add them as Heresies?

What do people think?
Merklynn Steelshadow II - 'Tyrant of the Sharps' - Rolled
Gulmyr Dro'Vaalvaz - 'The Patriarch' Retired - rolled
Aerik Northman - 'The Wolf of Sencliff' - Imprisoned by Angry Trees. - rolled

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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Maladus » Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:54 pm

I'm team Bhaal if that's an option lol
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Hazard
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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Hazard » Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:01 pm

I'd love to see Myrkul added!

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Re: Leira and Shadow Mages

Post by Red Ropes » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:27 pm

If they ever make a return it will not be so simple as "i worship a deity" in the basic system we have.

Unlike Leira who actually has a large following in the kingdom of Samarach (which is of course supplied by Cyric) the above mentioned do not have normal cults and are effectively special snowflake type situations which would be better represented with their own unique mechanics.

Overall Leira as an aspect is not the same as Bhaal or Myrkul as an aspect. Bhaal and Myrkul's cult was absorbed by Cyric and he peeled their names off very quick into his reign. Some went to other faiths. Cyric literally gathered everyone who didn't worship him by name eventually with those gods due to their involvement in his worldly empire and committed what could amount to genocide against them. Did a few survive? Surely but they're very few.

When he killed Leira and gained her portfolio of lies/illusions most of her followers didn't care or didn't believe it as the goddess herself was not very into "YOU SHALL OBEY MY EDICTS" and I presume Cyric isn't really interested in challenging the notion. The "good aligned" portions of her church have wandered off on the mainland and the wicked ones were probably absorbed there as well. Only in Samarach is she still named as a God.

Back when Bhaal was removed this was more or less stated and will eventually be done with other stuff. But my idea of it, at least, is it will be similar to what we have... and different. Perhaps difficult, even? But as it stands Dead Gods, OTHER THINGS, Non-Deific Cults of Divine Power, and so forth are something I want to get to but it'll be a bit.

In the mean time you have so, so many options to RP dead god cults, jaded former followers (though most of them being human are probably dead by this point, or undead in some cases).

I recommend:

* Following the god who killed them or another power similar to them. This is basically what happens when gods die and alignments change, anyway.

* Use a fiendish sponsor to regain divine power in case of dead deity. Fiends do not need to be worshiped to gain their power and clerics of them most of the time are self-aware. When you make deals with fiends they /do not care what you do with their power/ - you're damned anyway. Given that that the fate of the followers of dead gods is the Wall and you'd be semi-aware of this - this is a pretty good option.

* Being someone who has not chosen a god and is literally godless.
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