Mindless = Soul-less undead?

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Wethrinea
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Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by Wethrinea » Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:06 am

After a discussion around a recent D&D game, I began to put some thought into a necromancer concept I'd like to try out on Arelith. I am not well versed in the canon lore of necromancy however, so thought it better to ask here than botch the concept from start:

Are mindless undead (skeletons and zombies (and possibly others?)) soul-less, that is not retaining a soul that is chained and prevented from going to the afterlife when the bones/corpses are animated?

Or to turn the question around: What kind of undead retain their souls and are thus prevented from passing on by the act of animation/creation?

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Flower Power
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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by Flower Power » Mon Apr 17, 2023 3:24 pm

iirc, in the FR setting, basically only incorporeal undead (primarily the various subtypes of ghost/specter) and revenants retain their 'soul' in their unlife, along with potentially unique undead creatures created by deities, powerful rituals or artifacts.

A ghoul/vampire/et cetera isn't actually the person they were in life: that creature is dead, and has been replaced by a new creature that possesses a semblance of their personality and memories, fueled by negative energy and usually imbued with an unquenchable appetite for something. This is why these monsters are marked as Always Evil/Typically Evil regardless of the alignment their host possessed in life.

For basically all necromancy that isn't creating a ghost, etc., directly out of a deceased individual's soul, you aren't actually dealing with souls at all but the creature's animus (from which we derive 'animation'): the 'life spark' that the soul interacts with in the body to create a functioning, living creature, which is retained after death and contains some reflection of the mind/personality of the deceased (which is how the aforementioned intelligent undead can successfully ape the person they've functionally replaced.)

This is also why most undead creatures can't be properly resurrected until they're destroyed: the former creature's body has no vacancy.

what would fred rogers do?

chris a gogo
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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by chris a gogo » Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:03 pm

It is in fact really vague and lots of people have lots of idea's on it as the WoTC never really defined it, or why it was "bad".

Sentient:
Personally I use the soul link feeding it's creation idea for intelligent undead rather than it's just neg energy animating a corpse, just just prefer that version as it also makes it evil to do. = Created Undead Evil.

Mindless:
I just use the infused with neg energy without the soul being linked. = Animated undead not evil just disgusting.

But that's personal choice there is no correct answer as it's all made up!!!


JubJub
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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by JubJub » Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:28 pm

I always look at mindless as it might not necessarily be evil to make a zombie/skeleton or such, but you are dealing with someone's loved one. People tend to get a little angry at the thought you making Uncle Frank rise up and shamble around after you.


-XXX-
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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by -XXX- » Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:01 pm

What kind of necromancer would go for the remains of wheezy old uncle Frank on an island populated by bloodthirsty nelanther pirates, deranged cultists, savage hobgoblins and freakin' tanarukk butchers?

But to address the initial question: as a rule of the thumb, lesser forms of undead (zombies, skeletons) tend to be soulless and mindless while higher forms (liches, wights) tend to be sentient and having a corrupted soul. Incorporeal undead (ghosts, wraiths, spectres) are then essentially the shells or remnants of corrupted souls.


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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by DM Poppy » Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:13 pm

I'll add in on this also, whilst not entirely relevant. But related by how I've heard the above referenced time and time again with respect to whether or not the animation is evil.

Regardless of their state of mind / soul. It is a horrific and evil action regardless of intention or desire. Arelith does not recognise animation as anything other than pure evil.

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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by Twohand » Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:58 am

Flower Power's reply is concise and to the point, so I'll just build on that and say if any of you want to have a more detailed explanation on the subjects Flower touched, check out the Libris Mortis sourcebook. The best source of undeath lore for D&D 3e, in my opinion.


Khorvale
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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by Khorvale » Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:42 am

As I've understood it in general Forgotten Realms/D&D lore, animating the soul-less is a vile desecration of the mortal remains but the soul is perfectly fine (if perhaps a bit miffed) in it's respective afterlife, while creating sentient undead is twisting the actual soul into a profane mockery of itself and thus, even worse. I suppose you could compare the two to grave-robbing and necrophilia, respectively, in terms of moral reprehensibility


Wethrinea
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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by Wethrinea » Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:09 am

DM Poppy wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:13 pm

I'll add in on this also, whilst not entirely relevant. But related by how I've heard the above referenced time and time again with respect to whether or not the animation is evil.

Regardless of their state of mind / soul. It is a horrific and evil action regardless of intention or desire. Arelith does not recognise animation as anything other than pure evil.

Does this preclude the existence of neutral aligned animators? That is, by casting spells such as "animate dead" and "create undead", your alignment should shift towards evil regardless of the characters motives or other actions?

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:10 am

Wethrinea wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:09 am
DM Poppy wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:13 pm

I'll add in on this also, whilst not entirely relevant. But related by how I've heard the above referenced time and time again with respect to whether or not the animation is evil.

Regardless of their state of mind / soul. It is a horrific and evil action regardless of intention or desire. Arelith does not recognise animation as anything other than pure evil.

Does this preclude the existence of neutral aligned animators? That is, by casting spells such as "animate dead" and "create undead", your alignment should shift towards evil regardless of the characters motives or other actions?

A few points to consider
1) Doing this mechanically is a pain, it could lead to abuses. (e.g. 'Wow, Harper/Blackgaurd is a super cooll combo, I'll just app for harper, then animate dead a few times until I go evil, then take blackguard wheeee!') Stopping good/neutral pcs from raising undead might lead to wierdness too, and policing it manually is something I don't think we've time for.

2) Honestly whilst it is an evil action, I've always been of the opinion (and my colleuges may dissagree) that the game is more interesting when there are some shades of grey. Raising an undead as a last ditch effort to save an orphanage from destruction by angry monsters - whilst not a 'good' action, and whilst it might lead to the slide to evil, probably don't damn ones soul to the pits of avernus immedatly. Raising undead is almost NEVER a 'good' action. There are times when it might be a neccesry action, but even those should be EXCEEDINGLY rare. Someone who has raised an undead a handful of times in their life, but otherwise has been pretty blameless may indeed be neutral. Someone who makes a habit of raising the undead so they can go adventuring every second day - is not.

This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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In Sorrow We Trust
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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Wed Apr 19, 2023 10:02 am

As always with these, you should take a look at source materials to get an idea of how things are written in canon. A good source for this particular topic is the Libris Mortis, which you can probably find somewhere on the internet.

However, I'll still break these down with some estimations of how I thought they might work from an IC standpoint while I was developing the Streams. These are by no means an absolute guide and you should take it as inspiration more than anything else.

Zombie Stream:
Animated, mindless undead. No soul is retained. You can either animate them on the spot or summon some pre-animated ones. Though some differences exist where the undead may try to form words.

Skeleton Stream: Many skeletons might be instilled with enough intelligence to speak, but they are often only used for simple tasks and are simply incapable of doing anything overly complex. They are not instilled with a soul, but some necromancers might try to put a soul into a skeleton if they're ambitious enough. The result is rarely what they desire, though, and these creatures are often unable to cope with their circumstance.

Ghoul Stream:
Ghouls are creatures who have been twisted into undead carrion feeders that often feed on the flesh of the dead, they're generally trying to kill and then eat but not always. These are not animated. They retain very few similarities to who they were in life, and they are not completely mindless, but the soul is twisted if not entirely gone. You are usually summoning these from somewhere else after they are already created. Abyssal ghouls especially normally come from the Abyss and are said to be those ghouls who succumbed to the influence of Orcus, or were changed by it. Orcus might gift these to a necromancer in their service, or to someone who asks if he's feeling generous.

Mummies:
These are always created by burial rites which are often in tandem with either a curse (either intentional or ambient) or they are placed as guardians in many tombs, especially Mulhorand and Sibayad. These creatures remain wise and intelligent all the way through their eternal unlife but they are altered by the nature of their creation. There is much debate whether the soul is retained in a mummy but many lean towards "yes", and that these types of undead in fact are never allowed to leave the mortal plane that they are charged to protect, though it could go either way. You're always summoning these but there's room for flavor like a cursed item or a charge of post-mortem service or something they might react to and choose to make you the subject of their protection and service

Vampires:
Always created through either the vampiric curse or perhaps a rare few circumstances, such as unholy intervention or some rare cursed items (I once played a character who turned into a vampire because they drank from a cursed chalice). These are never mindless and in fact very intelligent, and they are often difficult to tell apart from who they were in life, but the soul has been twisted into the creature they've become or is completely gone entirely. I think the debate about it is what makes this type of undead fun to respond to. I thought these to either be summoned, or if summoned by vampires, can be roleplayed as childer. In many cases, characters make blood treaties with existing vampire clans to use their services, too.

Ghost Stream:
Always sentient. You might notice that not all of them are evil, either; the weaker ghosts are typically True Neutral. This is because a fresh ghost created by unfinished business is not necessarily malign, and is very similar to who they were in life, as their soul is not yet twisted. Some ghosts are created through the touch of evil or through intentional necromancy, and many of these are either tortured beings or outright evil. As you progress through levels, you'll notice that the ghosts gradually shift in alignment towards evil. That is because many ghosts, over time, lose more and more of their selves, and the capstones are not even regular ghosts anymore, but Banshees, who are always evil. You're summoning these always, but I suppose there's possibilities in creating them yourself if you know how to.

Wight Stream:
These are tricky because the capstone undead is not even a wight, but a Revenant. There was a reason I put it in there, though. Most wights are undead who are twisted into evil by sheer hatred and violence, and so their souls likewise become an abomination of what they originally were. I don't believe wights lose their souls completely, merely that they may be replaced by the new creature they become. Revenants, though, are something a little different. Revenants are created through a similar process, they die, there is hatred and violence, and then there is a will to rise from the grave to get revenge upon whoever slighted them.
The issue with this as a necromancer, though, is that you yourself are unlikely to be that person; the revenant would try to kill you, but if you were proficiently powerful enough, you could likely control any revenant and turn it to your side, though it would loathe you for stopping it in its task, lest you assisted it in completed it (before finally dismissing it). Wights on the other hand are always summoned, but I think necromancers of proficient skill could create them.

Abomination Stream:
These are constructed dead. Skilled and even amateur necromancers can put these together from a variety of corpse matter and bring them to life with animation. They often retain little of who they were in life and are usually very mindless, not sentient at all, and directed in the manner of any other construct that does not think for itself. HOWEVER… you could make a case that they might have a personality, and their personality might be a combined, tortured amalgamation of all the different people whose appendages and body parts were used in their construction (imagine how nightmarish that would be). I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying to say that an abomination was intended to be sentient by its creator, nor would I say that it's impossible. However, in many circumstances, if you look at the character sheet, they are very low intelligence and wisdom. This means that generally they weren't intended to be conscious of what they are. I know that the staff, though, doesn't make a habit of punishing players for creativity.

Beast Revenant:
I've had tangents about this one. Although many Beast Revenants were once animals (who only had a certain measure of sentience/self-awareness to begin with), Beast Revenants are no longer what they originally were (aside from the Wraith Spider, which is a canon undead creature and kind of differs from the rest of the undead in this Stream). In short, Beast Revenants typically begin life as normal animals but are then warped by cataclysmic uses of necromantic power or ambient fields of negative energy left behind in the wake of exceptionally powerful necromancy spells. You could make a case for curses, too. The most known cases of beast revenants being created are actually that of Necromantic Torture, where someone who is experimenting with necromantic power uses it to torture an animal to death. The animal is killed and their spirit becomes trapped. Over time, the result is a warped creature that, though once not aware of much at all, now BECOMES aware of what happened to it, its new state as an undead creature, and even (in many cases) the reason they are what they are. This instills in the otherwise innocent animal a preternatural hatred for all life and an evil that can only be quenched by becoming the hunter.

Wraith Stream:
Wraiths are an undead creature born of evil and darkness, despising light and all living things. They drain the life from living creatures, turning them into new wraiths upon death. Wraiths are an incorporeal Stream that barely retains anything from what they were in life, and are typically not interested in anything except the destruction of living matter and the snuffing of light. These are typically summoned from the Negative Energy Plane where many wraiths make their dwelling. Though wraiths are typically intelligent enough to pursue their aims, they are not usually scheming creatures. They're rather automatic and grounded in repetition at times.

Drowned Stream:
There's actually some variance with these. In some cases, the drowned dead are summoned from the depths of the seas and animated by their necromancers. In other cases, they are called to arms by whoever holds occult power over their original crew (such as Davy Jones and the Flying Dutchman) or perhaps are even in a pact to man the ship they were scuttled down with. There's always room for curses like in The Curse of the Black Pearl, too. Their mindlessness and intelligence are meant to range from completely nonexistent, to actually not that much less, and some Drowned Dead might not be that much different from who they were in life. It's important to know that these creatures are almost always evil because of what unlife does to you, though, and while some drowned dead might behave as they were in life, it's more likely they are simply "stuck on repeat": sailing, pillaging, killing, and doing all the things they did as living creatures. Mind you, Drowned Dead can also be sailors who weren't pirates, but typically they are depicted that way in the game because I didn't feel inclined to create even more options (when there are already so many) and we all know that Dread Pirates are probably overall a more sensible (and cooler) generic option for the capstone undead.


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Re: Mindless = Soul-less undead?

Post by Huelander » Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:21 pm

My own approach on describing how undeath functions in the Forgotten Realms is based on what I could find about how life functions in the first place.

Based from official descriptions of the monk class we have to assume life consists of three fundamental pieces that exist in a particular relationship to eachother. Mind, body and soul. And if you dig deeper you will find it remarkably consistent across D&D.

When appraising what the official FR wiki has to say about the Soul, is it very evident that it is the actual source of a creature's self-awareness. It's sapience, as opposed to simply its awareness; it's sentience. This is likewise where the dividing line of soul and mind would arguably exist.

The examples of soul-less life that is given typically revolve around plants, insects and oozes. As if these were the passive environment of ecological cause-and-effect where biochemical agency is not considered when contrasted to higher-order lifeforms.

This investigation takes something of a bend when assessing spirt-like creatures that cannot be ressurected. Outsiders and Elementals are described to have their souls merged into their 'animus'. And when examining their differences, the animus is either based on either something phyiscal or mental. With Elementals existing from a homogenous material or energy. And Outsiders existing as ideas and feelings given form. In either case, the sapience they wield is provided by the Soul merged into that. And enables them to be more than a simple piece of their planar environment. Creatures of this order rarely show any undead permutations due to what I assume is a natural incompatiblity. The Immolith is the only example that comes to mind for me.

So what are undead, then?

  • They'd nominally have to be derived from 'regular life'.
  • They can exist either with or without a Body.
  • Some of them are sapient and others are not.
  • They heal from negative energy rather than positive energy-based magic.
  • Undeath exist in a variety of permutations that come to exist through different methods.

And what is Necromancy?

  • A group of spells that seem to afflict the Body through degeneration or animation.
  • A group of spells that seem to target the Soul directly where other types of magic do not.
    Such as Death Magic and the Lichdom ritual for instance. These are described as separating the Soul from the target.
    I would assert that Level Drain effects (present in exclusively necromancy) also targets the soul as an analogue to how Ability Drain effects target the 3 physical and 3 mental atributes of creatures / characters. This is further congruent with Illusion targeting perception and enchantment targeting comprehension and so on. It locks spell schools nicely into a particular field of manipulation.

Lastly, the relation of positive/negative energy to life and unlife requires to be explained as well, provided you want a necromancer that understands what they are doing. Because many magic users are more kind of like end-users than programmers, if you were to compare spells to software. But I digress.

Positive energy generates and regenerates life, where negative energy degenerates it. And the reverse is true for the unliving.
For these energies to make sense, we will have to adopt the idea that Growing is a symptom of positive energy, and Aging is a symptom of negative energy. To put it simply; by the time you die of old age, you are dead and still. Which would imply that there is an equal amount of positive and negative energy present, canceling eachother out to reach a net amount of zero energy. At this point the Soul typically detaches from the Body and Mind and then soars into the afterlife, or gets sacrificed in a magic ritual, or perhaps starts haunting the area. Whichever.

The point being; that undead beings are not dead, they are undead. What is going on with them is that they somehow enjoy or suffer from an inverse relationship with positive and negative energy. The Soul still drives sapient decisions and is typically a source of woe and torment for such beings. Whilst undead lacking a soul behave either on impulses or they don't behave at all (l see you, skeletons. . .)

Given all of the above. I would draw the following conclusion:
Each form of undead has a distinctly different modification/corruption to the natural relationships that already existed between mind/body/soul during life. And the particularities of these modifications are the sort of thing explored by necromancers. Whilst the purity of those relationships are what is considered the Sacred Natural Thing that is forbidden to be changed by the likes of Druids that loathe animation. Alternatively, most voices that oppose necromancy entirely can be more styled after the Soul being the Sacred Thing that should not be tampered with. It being the spell school that dares to.

So yes. Mindless undead are Soulless undead. As a Mind without a Soul would really just be a Thought without a Choice. You could imagine the Body like a Car, the Mind like a Steering Wheel, and the Soul like a Driver.


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