If someone gives another character name

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If someone gives another character name

Post by D4wN » Tue May 30, 2023 9:33 am

Rules are pretty clear on needing to Pariah and Exile people face to face.

I do however wonder what would happen and what the rules are if someone gives you the name of another character you might not know / have met before to be theirs and wouldn’t know they’re lying about their identity. You have no way to know they are telling the truth ICly, but the OOC rules require you to do this face to face.

What happens if you Pariah someone because someone else lied about their identity and implicated another player?

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Good Character » Tue May 30, 2023 9:39 am

My assumption as a settlement leader has always been you're serving their person and not their name.

What that means is that mechanically a name is needed so NPC guards and merchants know who to react to; you can play it off as the NPCs knowing what the person looks like. It's why the disguise system can be used to circumvent your pariah/exile.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by D4wN » Tue May 30, 2023 9:51 am

That doesn’t really make sense to me. Because by that logic you should then know the person lied and know the description of the name belonging to the other person. Which also seems metagamey to me.

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Good Character » Tue May 30, 2023 11:18 am

At the end of the day this is definitely a question meant for the DMs to answer, but here's how I've rationalized what I've mentioned:

  1. It's not a perfect system. If someone either never mentions their name or provides false names, they're entirely circumventing the pariah/exile system even if they choose not to obscure who they are physically.

  2. I understand the feeling of metagame. I believe there's even a rule that explicitly defines that you cannot simply just do "the individual appears like [John Doe's description]" approach. Despite that, you cannot give the current pariah/exile a system a description to go off on. You must give a name for it to work.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by DM Poppy » Tue May 30, 2023 2:42 pm

This is a good question.

Personally, I feel if you do not have the Bluff or Perform skills to support you lie in disguise to be rolled against, you shouldn't be making them.

I'll ask the rest of the team though.

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by DM Monkey » Wed May 31, 2023 4:08 pm

If you don't know a character's name, you cannot issue an exile/pariah without specific permission from the DM team. This can be applied for to us in an appropriate situation, but it really isn't something we're going to allow often.

In the situation mentioned by the OP, if you get tricked IC and decide to go and exile/pariah someone based on the name you were given, you'll need to roleplay with that person face-to-face anyway. As a player, we expect you to have enough common sense to recognise that while your character might have been tricked, it doesn't mean you can/should take this action against the named third party unless they've been roleplayed with.

Complicated situation so I'll spell it out a bit more:

THIEF gets caught by GUARD. THIEF says, "Ok, ok, my name is Bob." Bob is not THIEF's name, and you know this OOC but you don't know this IC unless you know Bob or have reason to know it's the wrong name, which you won't. GUARD goes off to make this person a pariah/exile if that's the intention. Don't actually do that unless you're also roleplaying with the real character Bob and informing them of the exile. Maybe THIEF was disguised as Bob, has the outfit and disguise wasn't broken. If it's just them lying, at the point that GUARD talks to Bob, they should be realising maybe these aren't the same people. Maybe a mistake is made and GUARD informs Bob of the pariah/exile and then goes ahead with it. So long as that's all roleplayed out? That's fine.

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by D4wN » Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:41 am

I think I understand? So basically: If someone gives you the name of another character and you don't know it ICly you should in this situation recognize that the OOC rule still applies (assuming you know OOCly the person lied about their identity) and therefor need to come up with an IC reason as to why you wouldn't / can't Pariah or Exile the name given.

Is that right?

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Amateur Hour » Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:18 pm

Here's my concern:

Let's say I'm playing the Chancellor of Cordor for the moment (hah). The disguised "Bob Smith" walks into the city and does something that's an open-and-shut case for exile (e.g. summoning undead in the middle of the Cordor Square to murder someone). "Bob Smith" is asked for his name and says, "I'm Mark Twain." For the sake of argument, let's say that I am not a spotbot, and there are no spotbots around who can break "Bob Smith"'s bluff who could send me a Tell to let me know they aren't telling the truth.

Unless Mark Twain is also often in Cordor to the point where I can tell that "Bob Smith" is definitely not Mark Twain, I would have no way of knowing that "Bob Smith" is lying about his identity. I wouldn't know there's another character - the real Mark Twain - who I have to roleplay with to complete the exile.

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by DM Monkey » Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:43 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:18 pm

Here's my concern:

Let's say I'm playing the Chancellor of Cordor for the moment (hah). The disguised "Bob Smith" walks into the city and does something that's an open-and-shut case for exile (e.g. summoning undead in the middle of the Cordor Square to murder someone). "Bob Smith" is asked for his name and says, "I'm Mark Twain." For the sake of argument, let's say that I am not a spotbot, and there are no spotbots around who can break "Bob Smith"'s bluff who could send me a Tell to let me know they aren't telling the truth.

Unless Mark Twain is also often in Cordor to the point where I can tell that "Bob Smith" is definitely not Mark Twain, I would have no way of knowing that "Bob Smith" is lying about his identity. I wouldn't know there's another character - the real Mark Twain - who I have to roleplay with to complete the exile.

What is the concern here? You know OOC that the name given is a disguise, even though you don’t IC. You can therefore realise that exiling another character called Mark Twain wouldn’t be fair to them as a player.

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:17 pm

This whole thing is super weird. I always thought names were more the OOC way to get an exile done, rather than how exiles worked ICly.

Guards don't prevent people coming in on a name basis, but on an individual basis. The exiled people have a portrait and description spread throughout the guard, and if guards spot that individual, they send him away, the name is secondary here.

My point is that knowing someone's name should be irrelevant for exile. You are exiling the individual before you. Now, the only issue is when the individual before you is disguised and you did not break the disguise. Then you are exiling the disguise persona. It would make sense for that persona to be exiled, but another disguise of the same PC would not.

Requiring a name makes it extremely weird, where if you never tell your name to anyone, or just give a fake name, you can never be exiled from anywhere, which seems super sketchy.

I understand this is how the system works, but it seems like we are bending backwards and doing some mental gymnastics to justify it. Nothing prevents people with exile power from having a special 'Exile' feat, where they target an individual and that is done. Undisguised PCs just get exiled. If the target is Disguised you either exile the Disguise persona or the PC itself, depending on whether you broke disguise or not.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Amateur Hour » Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:40 pm

DM Monkey wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:43 pm

What is the concern here? You know OOC that the name given is a disguise, even though you don’t IC. You can therefore realise that exiling another character called Mark Twain wouldn’t be fair to them as a player.

If the rule is that disguised characters cannot be exiled or pariahed until someone breaks their disguise to confirm on an OOC level that the name given is correct, then constant disguise without property ownership can become a perfect defense against exile or pariah.

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:13 pm

Amateur Hour wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:40 pm

If the rule is that disguised characters cannot be exiled or pariahed until someone breaks their disguise to confirm on an OOC level that the name given is correct, then constant disguise without property ownership can become a perfect defense against exile or pariah.

But just breaking the disguise isn't enough right? You still need to know the name of the PC under the disguise, which no one may know. You just know they are definitely not who they are claiming to be.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Hazard » Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:46 pm

It's not that hard to play a character without ever telling anyone your name, or owning anything that would allow people to learn your name (property and stuff).

I've done this multiple times, but unfortunately people DO still find out your name. It only takes 1 mystery person to just metagame it, and tell someone and then it will spread server-wide and there's no undoing that. I've seen it happen to everyone else too, it's not just me. Trying to avoid metagaming on Arelith is as impossible as trying to avoid people shaming an elf for not wearing trousers.

Some low-quality things will just always happen.

I think a change in rules around exiling is needed. Needing the 'correct name' (whatever that means) to exile someone doesn't make sense. What if that player doesn't even have a disguise, and they just have never told anyone their name? Either by choice or they're mute and illiterate or whatever. If I play a character that is unaware of their own name, am I just immune to exiles, pariahs, scrying, etc? There's too much tied to "real name".

Idea. Dialogue option with the settlement NPC that allows them to ask for a piece of something from the subject. You just RP plucking a hair from the guy that refuses to tell you their name, give it to the dude .. The dude takes it off-screen to some state-funded diviner or something, they don't find out his real name or anything but whoever "that person" is, is now exiled.

Same with scry, just let people scry someone if there has been some RP around taking something of theirs/from them. It's equally as enforcable as learning their name, and makes more sense.

Bit of a rule tweak and a little text added for flavor.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by chris a gogo » Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:19 pm

I just presumed the use of the characters real name when getting exiled was a ooc mechanic thing, if bob the necromancer murders someone using undead in the middle of cordor in front a a dozen witnesses without a disguise, pretty sure the intent of the system isn't to let him get away with it because no one knows his real name.
That said if bob does this and is in disguise as sob and gets away then yeah you can't exile him as you don't know who really did it he was in disguise.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Royal Blood » Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:55 pm

This is a... Good question. I don't think the DM answer makes a ton of sense in my opinion because if you go to exile Bob Smith but you OOC know that's a disguise you're supposed to use that OOC knowledge to make your IC decision. Then players will get mad at you because you didn't exile Bob Smith. And with disguises we're supposed to pretend like we don't know it's a disguise. So forgo that in this situation. What are you supposed to do? You know OOC he's in a disguise so you make a decision IC to jail the person until they reveal their true identity and you wont be content until you OOC see their name matches?

But tbf. I think this is over thinking things. First, there's a lot of spy characters. Presumably if you have a disguised man committing crimes that warrant a severe punishment like exile you could leverage people to go find this characters actual identity. He probably has a quarter, a shop, friends or something.

If it's someone just trolling? Talk to the DMs and I'm sure a resolution can be found.

I think the question warrants some thought... But I think there are enough tools IG to solve this without having to resort to using too much OOC decision making.

Edit: I know several characters who exist perpetually in a disguised state. If I wanted to exile one I would send someone to follow them and find their quarter or shop and pull the name off of that.

I think you could be tricky and if you're disguised as Bob Smith but you also have access to Bob Smiths quarter? I think the exile should stand. That's just clever roleplay to frame someone. I wouldn't say it's a rule break because the characters acted on IC knowledge as they should.

So player X is disguised as Bob Smith. In disguise as Bob Smith he commits crimes. Spies ollow Bob Smith to the ACTUAL Bob Smith's quarter and conclude "This must be Bob Smith." And so then Bob Smith is framed and exiled.

Though according to the DM response that would be a rule break. TLDR I think it should be possible to frame a other character it would be extremely hard if not impossible to pay off. But if you're acting on IC info in good faith idk how an OOC technicality should result in a rule break.

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Spriggan Bride » Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:24 pm

I’d question what the purpose of exile is, to me it should be exiling someone who has a vested interest in the settlement (so they have a reason to try and get it removed or conspire against the leader or whatever else leads to a story). If someone in disguise is being a troll over and over that seems like a DM issue not an exile issue.

I get that there are circumstances where someone never gives their name or buys property or they live entirely in disguise but that seems like enough of a hassle to be a fair trade if you want to maintain access to cities. This is just my opinion of course— if you disagree, fine, but I think settlements should be a little shady and dangerous with characters up to no good still able to maintain presence and exile ought to be primarily a political tool.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Anomandaris » Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:41 pm

So someone is careful enough to not provide any clues as to their true identity, has protected their true name, and can pass undetected in a number of disguises, but you want to be able to use a mechanic without real knowledge of who they are to block their access to a settlement?

That’s what seems weird to me tbh. As one of the other posters said they’re either rping a careful spy, and you should sort it out IC with spy games or they’re a troll and should talk to a dm.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by chris a gogo » Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:14 pm

So someone is careful enough to not provide any clues as to their true identity, has protected their true name, and can pass undetected in a number of disguises, but you want to be able to use a mechanic without real knowledge of who they are to block their access to a settlement?

That’s what seems weird to me tbh. As one of the other posters said they’re either rping a careful spy, and you should sort it out IC with spy games or they’re a troll and should talk to a dm.

So should your character do something to get thrown out of a city and they have there disguise breached then they should be exiled, the character would be exiled by description and A.K.A's this isn't supported so you have to type in the characters real name, when using the mechanical system.
Saying my character spends all the time disguised and never uses there real name isn't a defense as it's not the name that is exiled it's the character.
Also doesn't really matter as disguise bypasses Exile, so if your always in disguise then you can still do the same thing as before with the caveat that if caught they can kill you.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Anomandaris » Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:53 pm

chris a gogo wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:14 pm

So someone is careful enough to not provide any clues as to their true identity, has protected their true name, and can pass undetected in a number of disguises, but you want to be able to use a mechanic without real knowledge of who they are to block their access to a settlement?

That’s what seems weird to me tbh. As one of the other posters said they’re either rping a careful spy, and you should sort it out IC with spy games or they’re a troll and should talk to a dm.

So should your character do something to get thrown out of a city and they have there disguise breached then they should be exiled, the character would be exiled by description and A.K.A's this isn't supported so you have to type in the characters real name, when using the mechanical system.
Saying my character spends all the time disguised and never uses there real name isn't a defense as it's not the name that is exiled it's the character.
Also doesn't really matter as disguise bypasses Exile, so if your always in disguise then you can still do the same thing as before with the caveat that if caught they can kill you.

I agree. And being able to pariah a disguise persona would be interesting, but likely come with other problems.

The original issue in question however did not include a successful breaking of a disguise.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Marsi » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:31 am

With regard to disguises, I remember it being policy that were you to spend too long in a disguise persona (particularly to subvert name-based mechanics) your character's mechanical name ought to be changed to the disguise name.

But honestly I've never thought about how a settlement should exile a character if that character has never given their name to the settlement, disguise or no. I suppose the act of giving the name to the "guards" is quasi OOC. You interactively roleplayed with the exile-to-be, that is your part of the contract. But then that name appears on exile boards, and the exiled character might assumed to be known in a fairly innocent act of metagaming by those who interact with the board thereafter.

The exile system and thoughtful roleplay rarely go hand in hand to begin with. It should be removed, or brought up to par with now more obfuscated disguise system.

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Spriggan Bride » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:39 am

I think it's not the end of the world if you can't exile someone who's cagey about their name. You can still ostracize them, gang up on them, shackle them, whatever else. Exile works best if it's used against someone who has an interest in the settlement they're exiled from (so you know, they actually care and want to work at getting it removed or whatever else the story leads to). Those people will likely have identities that are known.

I don't think exile should be the equivalent of a player made DM ban.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Jan Skorvo » Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:00 pm

chris a gogo wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:19 pm

I just presumed the use of the characters real name when getting exiled was a ooc mechanic thing, if bob the necromancer murders someone using undead in the middle of cordor in front a a dozen witnesses without a disguise, pretty sure the intent of the system isn't to let him get away with it because no one knows his real name.

The intent of the system is to encourage roleplay and interaction in most circumstances. If you do not know their name in character you cannot exile them. If they refuse to give their name after much interaction, you can ask the dm's if its possible to exile someone based off their appearance or corpse, but in most cases, you should interact with the person, ask for their name, and than issue a city wide punishment based on the severity of their crimes.

chris a gogo wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:14 pm

So should your character do something to get thrown out of a city and they have there disguise breached then they should be exiled, the character would be exiled by description and A.K.A's this isn't supported so you have to type in the characters real name, when using the mechanical system.

As before, you need to know a persons name in character to exile them.

The issue that you seem to be missing is that when you exile someone, their name appears on an in character exile board outside. So if they have spent however much time not telling people their name, actively using a multitude of disguises for however long, by exiling them you completely negate all of the steps they have taken to intentionally obfuscate other people from knowing their name.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Rei_Jin » Sun Aug 06, 2023 5:05 am

It has been said before by DMs that if you don't have someone's name, you can present their corpse/head (this was before the ear change) to the settlement official to ban them.

So, if they won't give you their real name, you can just kill them, technically speaking (under this previous ruling) and present the corpse to the official to get them banned.

The DMs may feel differently about this now, but, this is how it was.

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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by Definately Not A Mimic » Sun Aug 06, 2023 5:57 pm

If you set a rule that people can not be exiled without knowing their real name you're setting it up that people will just kill bash every time. There has to be consequences for actions. It isn't alright for people to break laws left and right in the city yet not take any punishment for it just because they refuse to give a name. If they can't be punished by the laws set forth then people will resort to just sighing, rolling eyes, then killing.


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Re: If someone gives another character name

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:05 pm

Rei_Jin wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2023 5:05 am

It has been said before by DMs that if you don't have someone's name, you can present their corpse/head (this was before the ear change) to the settlement official to ban them.

So, if they won't give you their real name, you can just kill them, technically speaking (under this previous ruling) and present the corpse to the official to get them banned.

The DMs may feel differently about this now, but, this is how it was.

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This is the case, but please note the 'LAST RESORT' part. We put this out there as a way to get around Bob the Mass Murderer who refuses to give his name, it's not intended to be used for any tome-dick-harry who refuses to lower their hood fast enough. Players who instigate the above should be willing to make screenshots as proof, and be ready to support this to the Dms.

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