Someone explain to me a neutral aligned drow

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Problem with drow and morality is that morality is embedded in what it means to be a drow- right?

Drow have turbulent, vicious, violent factionalism everywhere in their society, reflecting the idea of Chaotic Evil.

From a cultural standpoint, how does a Chaotic Neutral drow ascend from that? Do they reject the drow society (like Jarlaxle did)? Or is CN manifested in some other way?

Discussing alignment with creatures who have a fixed alignmen (CE) is a conundrum. That's why it's better to almost reject the idea drow are X alignment, but rephrase as drow have to be X alignment because that's what their society manifests.

[Preacher]

Typically, however, particularly evil actions that knowingly cause suffering or some befoulment of the world (creating an undead, summoning a demon/devil, torture) all fall into the absolute morals category of Things That Are Never Good.

I disagree on this, summoning demons/devils via a summon spell is nether evil nor good. you are summoning a being that itself is evil, but is now under your control/command(hopefully) and creating undead are only evil in descriptor only. You can create undead and use them to destroy evil. this act itself would be good if done simply to destroy the evil.

When it comes to alignment there is to much involved and for ANYONE to make a snap decision based on seeing 5 minutes or rp... you don't have the whole story. sadly dm's often are forced to do this. But this is why you can email and give a response of why you feel your actions are justified.

One thing I think Everyone can agree with is this....

Yes, it's complex as hell, and most people don't agree on everything about it.

[Bimbobasher]

I honestly always use the actions itself to determine alignment, along with reasons for such. For me the actions/reasons are the guidelines for the alignment, and not the result.

So I'll mention some simple actions that lean towards one side of the alignment and how they can be used on the other side.

My favorite is torture, which equates with humiliation:

CE not only has no issues torturing someone, they'd love to see their enemies humiliated and in pain.
CN has no issues torturing someone for their friends or loved ones, but it's not something they hope to do.
CG has no issues torturing for the greater good, but won't do it for personal reasons, and certainly not for enjoyment.

Most of the alignments in between are most based on the laws of the place they live or in their own personal laws.

LG will NEVER torture anyone, for any reason. Even the undead they dispatch are granted more of a mercy... which is quick. LG paladins do not sit and play around with undead, zapping them with minor heal spells to drag out the fight, and torture the creature. A LG good paladin wouldn't even do it for the supposed greater good, because chances are the world they lived in wouldn't be the greater good if they had to do such to make it so.

Then we have a situation of Self Sacrifice, a usually good act:

Lawful good would readily sacrifice themselves for the greater good, as would a CG. This also means sometimes they'd do it for complete strangers they never met. They might even do so for their enemies.

A neutral character wouldn't sacrifice themselves for a complete stranger, but they would for someone they love, families, and friends. They might even do so for a town they come along that happened to be nice to them.

An evil character would sacrifice themselves for their own goals, purposes, OR, even to make certain they drag others along with them. Many evil people have no problems sacrificing themselves if they think the hero will go down with them. The borderline sacrifice are for their loved ones, and it's about the only near decent thing an evil person can do... except it's for THEIR loved ones, THEIR friends, and only to give them the idea that THEIR situation is better for it, or only to give themselves peace of mind.

So... to answer the original question, a CN drow(which can completely be possible in the UD):

Will first off, have zero issues breaking the law if it serves the betterment of either themselves, their people, or their ideals. Nor will they have issues doing it for complete strangers.

They will torture someone if it serves a purpose, as long as it does so. Unlike evil people who will torture someone happily because that person inadvertently(or otherwise) stands in their way, or hell, just for fun, the neutral would do so if it serves a purpose of some sort, and use it as a resort rather than the first method. Rather than doing it for the greater good, they'd do so for a purpose that to them justifies it, rather than sport.

An evil drow will kill/enlsave/murder for money/power/security/fame/etc AND get a thrill out of it. A neutral drow will do so only cause it's the only course of action for the betterment of more than one person, and certainly not for themselves only. If a CN drow has to torture info from someone to save a friend or a cause, they will do so, and unlike a CG drow, they will not be doing it for the greater good... but some form of good. A CN drow leaning more towards the evil side will do it usually out of revenge.

The most important thing to note I think about such actions is the reaction afterwards or during. A CE drow will smile, A CN drow will not smile nor frown(because in most cases it would be something needed), and a CG drow will frown or even cry.

I think another thing to understand is that a Neutral aligned character would do these things for MORE than just themselves, but NOT for the greater good or everyone as a whole.

PS(and yes, summoning demons IS evil, because a neutral or definitely a good person will find another alternative. A neutral character may do it as a last resort.)

[Hunter548]

Evil = Doing bad things to others for personal enjoyment.

So an evil drow will enslave/kill/murder for the thrill of it.

The idea that evil characters do evil things because it gets their rocks off is utterly insipid, and morally boring.

I disagree on this, summoning demons/devils via a summon spell is nether evil nor good. you are summoning a being that itself is evil, but is now under your control/command(hopefully) and creating undead are only evil in descriptor only.

Book of Vile Darkness, and (IIRC) the Book of Exalted Deeds both say that summoning fiends is inherently evil- The descriptor spells have is important. Any fiend you summon or bind is going to attempt to tempt the summoner and any other mortals they find into corrupting themselves, going to interpret and follow any orders they are given in such a way that allows them to do the most evil possible, and attempt to escape your control as much as possible so that they can be an unbound free-roaming fiend on the prime and get up to all sorts of evil things, even ignoring that the fiend isn't going to be under the summoner's exact perfect mental control the way NWN portrays it for simplicity's sake.

Any character that regularly ignores all these risks of harm to others purely for their own convenience by summoning fiends is evil. Maybe not capital "E" baby-stew evil, but they're evil in the universal cosmic force way that NWN and DnD understand evil.

[Rystefn]

In fairness, the Book of Vile Darkness, and the Book of Exalted Deeds both say all kind of stupid crap.

But yeah, pretty much the only way you can pitch summoning demons/devils as not at least somewhat evil is if it's being done by someone/something that lacks the mental capacity to have morals at all. Unlike the [Evil] descriptor on spells that animate undead, this isn't just a matter of people getting squeamish over nothing. By doing this, you are, personally and directly, literally inviting evil into the world.

[Yma23]

Small ammendment to the summoning thing - I'd say -Knowingly- summoning a demon/devil is, in most cases, not a good act. Though again it depends a little on what you do with them. There's cases of Good characters summoning such simply to interrogate them.

But anyway -

On to the question

Yes. It -is- possible to play an neutral drow in an evil drow soceity. If it was not, then there wouldn't be an option.

How do you do this?

A neutral drow would probably be a little less willing to do openly evil acts. Not to say he/she wouldn't do them, but they may hesitate, or look for other ways first. They might also show a little more discomfort or unhappyness with certain aspects of society, though it is very doubtful that in most cases they'd try to change these aspects, or go against them.

That's my view anyway.

[The Man of the Moon]

From my point of view, a neutral drow will be seen as a weak element in the eyes of the cruel, lethal, predatory drow society, as the neutral drows will not be able to perform the most evil actions without hesitation (or enjoy them).

That neutral drow, wouldn't hope to climb higher in an evil society like the Drow one, and if he wanted and tried to climb high in their ranks, he would be forced to make things that gradualy could turn him into another evil drow. (as the alignement is not something rigid, but a reflection of what we do and what we are, so something in movement and posible change).

But, if the said neutral drow keep in a second or tertiary plane, with a grey existence, out of sigh and away from the politics and standard procedures, then he can have a chance to survive, camoufled among all the servants, probably hating what he could be forced to do often, but doing it to survive in that society.

[Yma23]

How society treats said neutral drow is an interesting question - but not really one that can be adressed in Game because:

a) Said soceity is unable to read the neutral drow's character sheet
b) Said neutral drow may be played in such away that the 'evil' aspects are more public than the 'neutral' aspects
c) 'Yur doing it wrong' is something that is discourged.

Also the 'evilness' of the drow society will always have to be a little toned down, just due to the PG13 rating of the server. (Not neccesarly a bad thing, mark you, just a statement)

You cannot, and I really can't stress this enough, you really -cannot- fully control how other people react to your character.

Further more, I'm not even actually fully convinced by your argument. I would agree that the very highest stratas (First house Matron Mothers, for example) would be quite difficult to reach, maybe from a pure lore perspective... but not impossible. Especially not in Andunor which is, let us not forget, a mixed race city, not a pure drow city.

Indeed, a neutral drow is in fact more likely to get into a position of power there I'd say, though it depends a little on how it's played.

Pretend you are a houseless Drow. Which house do you go for? The one where the matron mother regularly whips the backs of her males skinless for the smallest infringement? Or the one where the Matron mother is known to regularly pay and reward her underlings, so long as their service is good.

Again of course, it's all in how it's played. Not all evil is chaoticaly cruel and randomly punishing, not all neutral is relitivly fair minded and even handed. But there is some corrolation and in the end, other characters may be more likely to spend time with those that are less randomly brutal, and this 'pleasentness' for lack of a better term, can get the average drow suprisingly far.

And if you are looking for a neutral drow in FR cannon that's risen high in Drow Soceity? I need point you no further than Jarlaxle. Granted, he never held much -official- power, but you couldn't exactly call him a servant or slave.

[The Man of the Moon]

I am stating a very reasonable fact for a cruel and evil society as it is the drow one.

Alignment is detectable, of course it is, how people behave. long term, the kind of things you do and how you act , you could give away your alignment in the eyes of those who observe you.

Of course there are exceptions , but that does not make them the ordinary or natural.

[The Man of the Moon]

And anyway, what I said, is not at all what could happen. Not at all.

Obviously, his performance will decide how far he went in the UD.

The character players are not usually the standard people, but heroes or villains, and a heroe or villain can reach goals above the usual standards.

[Grunf]

We speak of Neutral aligment but not of what kind, in combination as drow i see it as this:
- Lawfull Neutral: Self-oriented Drow who has its own principes that keep him out of the conflict at all cost.
- True Neutral: Focused Drow in Trade maybe, he cares not for religion, other drows even himself, he is driven by idea of something greater (in drow world)
- Chaotic Neutral: Drow that is mad-complete mad!!!

This last Chaotic Neutral i see as huge challenge to RP, maybe only toon i noticed near it is Chana Tum'dugl but not sure, its soo chaotic neutral that he might have many layers bellow that can be good or evil or is just that.
Chaotic Neutral Drow would be person everyone see as crazy drow-I still feel i am not ready for such challange and could be most difficult thing to rp.

Drow on Surface? Must have really damn good reason, i agree with LiveNPC Vhaerun is only religon that could boost that, but i think it can be many more other things if RPed well.

[aaa3]

CN is no way 100% lunatic madman Grunf. He is chaotic because he purchuse freedom in his doing and bounces in his actions from good to evil and has very hard time to submit to the laws (which, naturally, limit him).

As drow are usually chaotic, same as most elves in FR, these aspects are not so much standing out in the society where everyone is encouraged to break laws (by most drow deities).

[Grunf]

Before reading, i must tell this is my opinion and vision that i wish to share i dont expect anyone to agree with it as we are all humans here with different experiences of life with it also a view to this subject.

Drow (Arelith) Priestess are chaotic because of their nature of bond with the Dread Queen or other chaotic gods, they are crazy brutal persons that would be killed if there wasnt indoctrinated dogma or lawfull drows who see that domga usefull for their little shadow plays. Even Priesthood leans towards lawfull sometimes. So we have this system than we have harsh UD world filled with chaos-and now we throw Chaotic Neutral Person in it, a drow, yes? What i see is person who holds no value in any dogma as actually oppose if pressed with it because of its chaotic sometimes nature, their behaviour in presence of anything from core drow would would make him to undpredictable thing, as such in crowd sooner or later it would be seen as crazy person-the moment it learns how to deal with it its lawfull-not chaotic neutral.

Thats why i believe chaotic-neutral thing is very hard to RP in UD PVP world as you will be killed not because you are opposing but to be extreme different. And if we all here rp our toons to let RP change us, even aligment in long run I dont see one staying as chaotic neutral if it tends to survive in ud-its possible yes, but I believe no one could for long. UD is large place but we dont play arelith to play hermits but to rp with others so-its in my opinion the hardest aligment to rp in ud, as being good can bring you allies, evil as well, neutral brings really small cut of allies in ud.

[aaa3]

Noone is that sucidial to commint self-killing. If said character cannot handle it his own way, he will lower head, grip teeth and go along - forced.

CN can be very faithfull and loyal companions, so if such serves to someone, he will simple follow things he does not agree with it, if he breaks it, he will do it in secret. My CN warrior never opposed his matron. He just was doing things he disagreed with in...half way. He did break laws, regularly, like releasing his slave, behind matrons back. But when told to murder someone he has done it, why? Because he saw it as defending his matron and his house. He had extremely big troubles with certain authorities, but mostly because i opted to do so, he could as well bow head and just go along, choosing more shadowy ways to deal with it. But his character was set as simple minded soldier, so he was always open and direct (and if his matron did not hold protective hand, he would be much much more carefull in his doings).

Eh and being neutral in fact creates the biggest and the most interesting friendship in Ud ever. Many lessers were good friends for him, have you forgotten the struggle for Kiya when Yasdia collared her?

[The Man of the Moon]

A chaotic neutral is probably, the easiest alignement to go, because also probably is the most common alignement...

A chaotic neutral person is someone who will do what they want.

Follow the rules that pleased them? Sure! Why not?
Break the rules unpleasant fot them? Of course!

Hostilities against that neighbour you hate? Always! (Even kill him if necesary)
Friendship by convenience? Sure, why not?
Salve someone in problems? Only if your situation won't get worse and if that pleased to you...

So basically, with a Chaotic Neutral (what matches 100% with most of mercenaries) you can do anything you want it for your own interest.

And nope, a CN don't need to be a crazy person at all, is simply a rebel person.

[Sab1]

Somehow I can't picture a LN or TN drow. Drow society only leans towards lawful simply because a true CE society would tear itself apart, so on the surface they have laws to maintain some sort of order. But the #1 drow rule is anything is ok, just don't get caught. If you get caught then clearly you were weak and stupid so deserve your punishment. CN I could see fitting a drow, I would envision them as being more of an outsider type. Since CN can be unpredictable they might have a hard time fitting in a true drow society. But in the end most Drow are simply evil and delight in seeing those weaker then themselves tormented. Might makes right.

[Preacher]

Book of Vile Darkness, and (IIRC) the Book of Exalted Deeds both say that summoning fiends is inherently evil- The descriptor spells have is important. Any fiend you summon or bind is going to attempt to tempt the summoner and any other mortals they find into corrupting themselves, going to interpret and follow any orders they are given in such a way that allows them to do the most evil possible, and attempt to escape your control as much as possible so that they can be an unbound free-roaming fiend on the prime and get up to all sorts of evil things, even ignoring that the fiend isn't going to be under the summoner's exact perfect mental control the way NWN portrays it for simplicity's sake.

Any character that regularly ignores all these risks of harm to others purely for their own convenience by summoning fiends is evil. Maybe not capital "E" baby-stew evil, but they're evil in the universal cosmic force way that NWN and DnD understand evil.

1. the book of vile darkness and exalted deeds have nothing to do with how things are on arelith so those as another put, can easily be ignored unless someone of authority says otherwise.
2. You show the evidence against your own theory. (bold added for emphasis)

the fiend isn't going to be under the summoner's exact perfect mental control the way NWN portrays it for simplicity's sake.

What you see is what you get, these summons do not have the evil descriptor, thus in themselves are not inherently evil. More so due to the fact that they are perfectly under control of the caster. So while summoning a demon/devil is absolutely not a good action, it is not absolutely evil ether. it is purely neutral until you use them for something evil or good.
3. using the example that things could go horribly wrong as a sign that it is evil is akin to saying experimenting when anything that has a chance of going wrong is evil. The act is not evil. it is neutral. what you do with the knowledge is what is good or evil.

Summoning a devil/angel - not evil or good.
Summoning a devil/angel to have them do something good/evil - is good or evil because it was your will that caused the action that was evil/good. The intent behind the action is what is the good or evil thing.

History is full of actions that are good/evil done for the opposite reason. person saving a child (something good) to raise it as its horrible future abomination... the reason behind it, evil. lets flip it. Person hurting another (evil) to protect a family member from the abuser.... good.

The reason behind every action is what causes it to be white or black.

[Yma23]

Summoning a devil/angel to have them do something good/evil - is good or evil because it was your will that caused the action that was evil/good. The intent behind the action is what is the good or evil thing.

A thought - I thikn perhaps why the summoning devils/demons thing is -generally evil is because, well, it's so likely to go bad.

Examples:

1) Joe mage accidently reads a spell aloud and unkowningly summons a demon. To me this is a neutral act. The mage had -no- idea of what he or she summoned. Refusing to bind/banish the creature upon learning of what they did? Maybe evil. Certainly not good. But accidental summoning? No, that's just an accident.

2) Joe Mage -knowingly- summons a demon to help him go out and kill some bears. At -Best- this is a neutral action, and possibly an evil one as I'm sure Joe could have persued a vareity of other paths, (asking friends, seeking other summones ect) to have gotten to the same ends.

3) Joe Mage knowingly summoning a demon, binding and tormenting it to give him information on how to procure the... Vial of Sunny Delight wihch will be used to heal one hundred villages from the whithering plauge of Doom - To me this is... in -potential- a good act. However! The problem comes in that the demon or devil could lie, or mislead, to make Joe think they have to murder say, a two year old toddler to get the vial. Or would use their abilities to persuade Joe to free them, in return for the info, and then go on to murder all 100 villagers and cause untold acts of destruction.

The thing about summoning demons/devils to me is yes, yes in theory it could be used to good ends. But when you bring such entities of such utter malavolence, destruction and pure -evil- into the world, even if your intent is good, there's a sizable chance that it will go horribly, horribly wrong, and any character that takes this risk -willingly-... Well as I said. I dont' tihnk it is neccesarly inherently evil, but add that willingness to take the risk along with the -restult- being said destruction/mayhem/corruption and yes, you have an evil act.

[Preacher]

one and two I basically agree with you on. (sans 2's he could have used other options as the argument of well why did you use your summons instead of a sword, ally, etc has to many responses.)

three however goes in line with the "what you see is what you get" policy. in nwn your summons are completely under your control (Barring any bugs or a dm possession... which I'm not even sure can actually happen on a summons) Thus three only has truth if the player RP's it such (which would be some good rp! ) and it not accurate in any other situation.

[Maelstrom]

Evil = Doing bad things to others for personal enjoyment.

So an evil drow will enslave/kill/murder for the thrill of it.

The idea that evil characters do evil things because it gets their rocks off is utterly insipid, and morally boring.

Khan, from the original Star Trek, did "evil" acts, (Space Seed) but he did not see them as evil. He saw them as justified and necessary.

In "The Wrath of Khan", he was of course consumed with bitterness and was borderline, if not fully, insane, but again his acts of "evil" were not, in his eyes, evil acts, they were justified in his desire for revenge on what he perceived to be "evil" acts by Kirk. (Not checking on their situation and thus, by default, being responsible for the deaths of his followers and his wife)

Evil does not necessarily do evil things because they enjoy doing evil acts. They sometimes do them because they believe it's the right thing and can, in certain cases, even believe they are doing good things.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think you can also tackle the idea that evil characters do evil actions, and perceive them as evil. In addition to perceiving as evil, they see those actions as necessary, or can be indifferent to moral consequence.

[Rystefn]

I think you can also tackle the idea that evil characters do evil actions, and perceive them as evil. In addition to perceiving as evil, they see those actions as necessary, or can be indifferent to moral consequence.

"I'm a monster, Mal."