Pick pocketing and items being auto-returned

[A thousand tiny oysters]

As some of us already know, Arelith scripting limits which items can be stolen by pick pockets. If a forbidden item is taken by the default NWN script, the Arelith script will return it automatically.

However, since the item is returned with a notification in the event log, it's possible for a player who is paying attention to notice what has happened.

For example, a dwarf runs into you while you're walking along and you see this notification: "Acquired Item: Key to Doug's Quarter."

It's fairly easy to reason the dwarf just tried to pick pocket you, took the key but had the script return it.

Now, my question: Is this OOC knowledge that should -not- be acted on?

[The Rambling Midget]

Yes.

However, you'll find that maybe one in a hundred players has the necessary self-control to not act on it, so best to move on. It's unlikely that more than a handful of turds will chase you down if the item is returned, but if you go in for a second attempt, you're just asking for trouble.

Even within the bounds of good RP, a thief should really only make one pass at a mark. A second invites suspicion.

[Maragaram]

Yeah, as someone who has played two pickpocket characters now, I can say that this is probably the most annoying feature of the Pickpocket system on Arelith. I understand why it's necessary, but it still makes it way too easy for people to metagame knowing that your character is a thief. Especially when it's already so easy for them to succeed at the detection roll and ICly know what your character is up to (if you're playing a low-level thief, that is). This is one of the major reasons why my latest character, Caddy, stopped being a pickpocket after my first day of playing him.

[IndifferentPerson]

When I wasn't aware of how NWN mechanics fully worked or the PP changes, I actually thought that I genuinely saw the PP attempts.

[SwampFoot]

I've found the best time to play the thief role is when there is a lot going on in the area. Distracted targets are less likely to notice the message if there are other things going on.

[Kashisjonny]

Tons of fun to be had in lying to Guard's about being pickpocketed too.
Generally results in someone getting stabbed, which is a good thing.

[Rattus_norvegicus99]

As Mith once said long ago on the old forums "what you see is what you get" so if that yellow text pops up in my box, I see it.

[Oros]

I'm pretty sure that isn't regards to your text box, and is quite out of context. I imagine it was in regards to things akin to Half Orcs disguising as Gnomes. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I am fairly sure Rambling was correct that it is in fact not in character information.

[Rattus_norvegicus99]

Its information you are given and as is any other information that you are given in yellow text - aka - the yellow text you get in Darnoth's chamber or walking into the Stonehold Portal, it is IC information ...

[Lorkas]

As Mith once said long ago on the old forums "what you see is what you get" so if that yellow text pops up in my box, I see it.

That can't possibly apply to all of the text that's in the right dialog box. Otherwise we could walk around ICly saying that we rolled a 1 on a saving throw, which is clearly OOC information (though the result--hit/miss, knocked down/not knocked down, etc--is IC information). It's also not IC information that the server is resetting in 1 minute, or that someone failed to see through your disguise (that is an OOC notification, as confirmed by several forum threads).

The item being returned in this case is just happening because of a quirk in the game engine interacting with Mith's script to prevent people from picking things like full plate armor, which is ridiculous. It's not like the thief successfully takes your full plate armor, decides "Nah" and puts it back, at which point you ICly notice them putting it back. That would be just as ridiculous as them being able to pickpocket the armor in the first place.

You only know that someone tried to pick your pocket ICly if 1) your spot roll beats their pickpocket roll and you see them doing the pickpocket animation, 2) they pick a blade orb from your pack (are those still around?), or I guess 3) if they tell you ICly.

[Mulled]

http://wiki.arelith.com/No_excessive_theft_rule

"If the pickpocketed item is given back by the system, then it does not count as a successful attempt, so the thief is free to attempt to steal an item that they get to keep."

Lorkas is correct. It has been stated that if the item is returned to inventory it should be considered that the pick pocket attempt never happened.

"If you succeed but the item is then taken off you, the attempt never happened so you can try again." - Mithreas

[P Three]

Yeah, I've assumed every time it's happened to me, that it's not IC information. Though it does make me chuckle, every time.

[Hunter548]

If it's IC info, so are attack rolls (So your character knows what their AB is), saving throws (So your level 2 rogue without lore or spellcraft knows when someone detects evil around him), people logging out, reset messages, etc.

[DM_Ironfist]

As Mith once said long ago on the old forums "what you see is what you get" so if that yellow text pops up in my box, I see it.

Hello!
This is incorrect. Lot's of things that appear specifically in that box (remembering everyone the contents of that box can be amended by the player as to what shows and does not show are ~NOT~ IC information.)

For example, there is a very specific ruling we had a while ago about Piety, and how it's generated in rituals and clerics being able to spot individuals not generating the property piety during the ritual and citing the combat log as a source. This was ruled as a 'No'.

Because I don't want to stick my own neck out too far on this one, I'm going to summon the powers that be to provide some official clarification for ya'll. (You never know, it might be me that's wrong.)

[Black Wendigo]

Just because someone failed a pickpocket doesn't mean that that failure can't be detected. If it was me I would rp noticing the pickpocket attempt but not knowing what items it was or the person trying to do it. This is purely subjective on my part and is certainly not any attempt at establishing a rule.

MY advice would be simply don't be a cheese-ball about it. Same as any situation where the rules seem grey or subject to a case by case judgement. When in doubt ask a DM I suppose. Really, though I don't think there is a one size fits all answer.

As for the yellow text , I don't think MIth meant the yellow text in regards to what you see is what you get. There are LOTS of things in yellow that are OOC. (Can you imagine your char knowing about every script error that appears in yellow? I thought not .)

[IndifferentPerson]

excuse you my characters know exactly when their enemy logs off so they can go bash their fixtures

[Kaulguard]

Prithee, what is this 'log off' of which you speak?

[Lorkas]

Just because someone failed a pickpocket doesn't mean that that failure can't be detected. If it was me I would rp noticing the pickpocket attempt but not knowing what items it was or the person trying to do it.

In the case that we're discussing, the pickpocket did not fail at an attempt to pickpocket--they succeeded, but the game chose an unpickable item for them. As Mith said above, if an item was returned then there was no pickpocket attempt. You can't notice something that didn't happen.

[Marsi]

just to tack on- what's the stance on seeing attack rolls in the combat log, or noticing the area music changing and concluding that your character can 'hear' battle sounds elsewhere?

I've personally considered it a no-no, but I've seen it occur benignly and not so benignly IG.

[Twily]

just to tack on- what's the stance on seeing attack rolls in the combat log, or noticing the area music changing and concluding that your character can 'hear' battle sounds elsewhere?

I've personally considered it a no-no, but I've seen it occur benignly and not so benignly IG.

Personally(and this obviously isn't a ruling) I dislike it when people "hear" battle sounds because they hear combat music, and then start running to catch up and actually find it a tad immersion breaking. I actually turned my music off so I don't hear it, and I was a tad surprised by something I couldn't hear over the music before.

You can hear the actual combat sounds from a very reasonable distance. The sound of mobs dying, being hit, etc. This I would not mind someone acting on, as they are saying they hear combat, because they hear combat, not because the game is playing a certain type of music for the entire map. Obviously this may not be the same as the official ruling though.

As far as attack rolls go, It's a game mechanic. Your character can't see the roll, but you as a player can interpret the meaning of the roll. Rolling a 1 when you have a 95% chance to hit something, can mean "Dang it, He moved faster than I expected!" or "Well that was a pathetic attempt at a swing". or something along those lines, if a player chooses. From an IC angle, they missed when their skill dictates they were very likely to hit, and that could mean a number of things.

Do you have one of those days where enemies seem to be rolling tons and tons of 20s, and you tons of low numbers? Well I would just look at the facts. Your characters skill dictates they have X odds of doing X good, and if they are doing worse you could say they're feeling off, have a headache, are distracted or something else like that. I personally don't see why that would be a problem and may actually make your character seem more dynamic and realistic.

Naturally, a DM overrules any of my opinion.