Warlock Pacts, and Rebellion

[Seven Sons of Sin]

My warlock lore is very unclear-

To my understanding, a pact works like so:

Mortal A agrees (or is forced to agree) to relinquish something to Entity B
Mortal A receives powers from Entity B
Mortal A thus enters a pact with Entity B

1. What if Mortal A uses powers granted by Entity B, to attack Entity C? I.e., what if a warlock got his powers from the 3rd Lord of Hell, and then proceeds to attack every other lord of Hell?

Additionally,

2. if Mortal A decides to rebel, can he rebel against Entity B with the same powers he was granted by Entity B?

3. Do pacts entail the use of granted powers? Do they entail rules and guidelines? How politically motivated are pacts, for the Entities?

4. How do "pacts" work? In the sense, a form of agreement suddenly grants you powers that you didn't have 5 seconds ago. This is unlike the studious-ness of wizards or the innateness of sorcerers. Do pacts have anatomical or mental repercussions?

I think that's all I have for now.

edit (i have more): Depending on how you answer 4, do pacts alter the psyche of Mortal A? Unlike wizards and sorcerers (and perhaps much like clerics) your gifted powers come from a very fixated, morally-defined source. Do pacts corrupt? Do pacts liberate?
Warlock powers are often referred to as 'eldritch' - alien, unearthly, possibly mutant? My question is how can a Mortal A exist to be both earthly, and unearthly?

[Yellena]

Spawn comes to mind...
lots of RP opportunities there I think.

[The Rambling Midget]

2. Only if Entity B allows it, cat and mouse like. That's pretty much how Vanya lived and subsequently went out. She had to sacrifice her pact powers to defy her patron.

[Preacher]

There has been little to no direct rp requirement for the warlock as a whole. the only direct information is:

Infernal warlocks require non-chaotic non-good.
Abyssal warlocks require non-lawful non-good.
Fey warlock non-good.

other suggestions and tips are found in the wiki http://wiki.arelith.com/Warlock

previously there was a specific demon/devil/fey that you pacted with. With the option to be a warlock on creation that is no longer the case and its any demon/devil/fey entity.

[Dalenger]

Building upon rambling midget...
How I think about it is, for some reason an infernal being grants (not always by it's own choice) a mortal some of its power.
Reasons for this could include:
I give you power, you do what I ask and are my puppet
I give you power, because some how (prolly via lots of lore and preperation) you have tapped into my power
I give you power, because I find it entertaining to give one of your morals a bit of my power, only to have it destroy you in the end
I give you power, because I believe there is power already in you (perhaps you have a bit of infernal or dragon blood in you already)
(more examples)

As to "what will happen if I decide to rebel" It depends upon your relationship with your infernal sponger (ie, how you gain power from them). In most cases, however, I would say you lose all your power, unless you somehow become more powerful then the infernal one and wrest his source of power from him entirely.

To answer your last question, yes, I would definitely say eldritch magic corrupts. It's basically in the name. Eldritch magic is (at least in this setting) magic of the infernal, NOT magic of the mortal. So by tampering in eldritch magic as a mortal, you are royalty screwing yourself over in the long run, and will eventually 'burn out' your very soul.

All of this is my two cents, and is not backed by any sort of actual research into the topic. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Hunter548]

1. What if Mortal A uses powers granted by Entity B, to attack Entity C? I.e., what if a warlock got his powers from the 3rd Lord of Hell, and then proceeds to attack every other lord of Hell?

I would think a Lord of Hell would actually encourage this- None of the Lords of Hell are particularly amiable with each other, aside from Bel. They all have aspirations to rule Hell over the other eight.

Abyssal Lords, same deal.

Unseelie, though, I would think that killing Unseelie fey would be a bad way to earn the queen's favor unless you had no other choice, or whatever. They're higher up in the "court", so to speak.

2. if Mortal A decides to rebel, can he rebel against Entity B with the same powers he was granted by Entity B?

Very doubtful. That which can be given can probably be taken away. The alternative is silly in my mind.

3. Do pacts entail the use of granted powers? Do they entail rules and guidelines? How politically motivated are pacts, for the Entities?

Probably- Definitely for infernal pacts, possibly so for Fey pacts, probably not for the Abyssal pacts due to a lack of meaningful politics between the Lords.

4. How do "pacts" work? In the sense, a form of agreement suddenly grants you powers that you didn't have 5 seconds ago. This is unlike the studious-ness of wizards or the innateness of sorcerers. Do pacts have anatomical or mental repercussions?

I have always RP'd it as Sith style "force of will", that drives a warlock's "ability" to use their pact. There have to be anatomical or mental effects of taking it- Warlocks do get DR, elemental resistance, etc. I imagine that suddenly finding out you can hurl infinite amounts of flames and weild vast amounts of destruction is not mentally healthy, especially for the sort of person who would make the deal in the first place.

Depending on how you answer 4, do pacts alter the psyche of Mortal A? Unlike wizards and sorcerers (and perhaps much like clerics) your gifted powers come from a very fixated, morally-defined source. Do pacts corrupt? Do pacts liberate?
Warlock powers are often referred to as 'eldritch' - alien, unearthly, possibly mutant? My question is how can a Mortal A exist to be both earthly, and unearthly?

I would say that the entire point of the pact is to corrupt, especially for the infernal pacts. Make you, eventually, the ideal tool for whomever your pact-giver is. For demons, this is a CE crazy person who kills and steals abyssal artifacts. Devils, LE tyrant who is going to spread the tenants of Diabolism. Fey, CE crazy person who is going to find gifts for the Queen, whether that be the innocence of a young boy, a rare creature for the Dark Hunters, a girl's voice, some dude's last breath, w/e. None of these are particularly close to what your average mortal's mindset is going to be.

[DirtyDeity]

Warlock gives away his soul to ANY ENTITY, for power. Deciding WHICH entity already is important. Remember Judith and her bugs? Soreik and her slime? The powers given are derivative of the nature of the entity. This already gives many neat ideas, if you choose a cool entity.

Now, after the pact, the entity OWNS YOUR SOUL.That means they can do anything. This diverts Warlocks into two. Those who embrace their entity, acting in its name, and those who try to deny their entity. The first are completely mad villains or tricksters. The latter are a sort of split-personality thing.

The entity owns your soul. It can, will, and should force you to do things that would please it. The Warlock doesn't necessarily agree with that. But has no choice. That is why warlocks can't be good. That is why warlocks are hated and hunted. You can live a peaceful life, but then your owner decides you should sacrifice a small child for it. You don't have a choice. You do it.

This is why Warlocks hide their powers, and try to walk the thin line between doing the minimum their owners ask, and managing to live a 'good' life. Or they embrace the entity, and become villains.

This makes Warlocks very difficult to play, because -you- have to choose what these fateful demands are. It's up to you to ruin your character's life.

Disclaimer: The written above is presented as fact for comfort's sake. The words are my opinion.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Nothing in Arelith explicitly states pacts forfeit your soul, though. Isn't it dangerous to have an opinion on the mechanics of the warlock that's incongruent?

In Arelith, mortals forfeit bard song. I guess that can be interpreted in a variety of ways.

[Baron Saturday]

Likewise, many warlocks make pacts with several creatures, rather than just one, in order to access even more power, though all warlocks must eventually favor one pact over all the others.

I would argue that if warlocks are able to pact with multiple creatures, they are not necessarily selling their soul. (Although now the idea of a warlock whose patrons are playing tug-of-war with their soul is in my head, and it's pretty lul. Patron A demands X, Patron B demands Y and those things are in direct opposition, so now poor Wally Warlock is fighting on both sides of a conflict and genuinely trying to kick his own Snuggybear.) But yeah. Pacts are effectively trades - the warlock gives something that the patron values, in return for power. That something can be just about anything (as limited by the Cheeseball Ultimatum - "Alack, for I must offer up unto mighty Paush one raspberry danish each month!") so long as it is conceivably worth it to the patron.

That's not to say that the pact won't have a corrupting influence. Between the power and the price, not to mention the mindset required to forge a pact in the first place and the temptations that so frequently get dangled before warlocks, it is incredibly easy for them to end up damning themselves. Which, really, can be the better bargain for the patron, since they can then get whatever price is paid IN ADDITION to the corruption of a mortal soul (fo' free, yo).

[CragOneEye]

It is really is not much different than the kind of pact a BG makes, to get BG powers.

[Yma23]

Seven is right, it's been explicitly stated that warlocks do not sell their souls to get their power. I guess you could roleplay that if you wanted. Heck, I played a character who's soul had been signed away, and he wasn't a warlock! But it's not arelith-cannon true. Arelith cannon - Warlocks sell their ablity to sing. That is all.

That said - one could certainly rp that said power is giving a character orders. So in the example of an infernal pact... yes, said Devil may not -actually- have forced the character to sell their soul, they may order the character to do things that would imperil, and eventually damn, their soul.

[Morderon]

Not all those who make a pact will gain warlock powers. Perhaps they wanted to bring someone back from the dead. Perhaps they wanted wealth. Perhaps they just wanted a certain position within society.

Warlock superpowers, as far as what can be given through pacts, is likely one of the most costly, if not the most costly, to give.

If a Devil/Demon/Unseelie does not think she/he/it will gain a return on the investment, either at that moment or down the road by some means, they do not have to make a deal with the mortal. If they believe the risk is to high they do not have to make a deal with the mortal. They are immortal entities and, with some exceptions, plan in the long term.

Something else to consider is that while the devil/demon/unseelie may give an individual warlock powers they may not give him the full package and just enough to accomplish what he wanted to do in the initial deal In the hope that the mortal will consider more pacts with the entity for even greater power. I generally prefer continued service for the mortal's side of the deal with my warlock concepts.

IMO, the devs didn't list a cost, other then bard song, to transform into a warlock because they only wanted bard song to be the cost of the pact. But because they wanted players to determine their own cost.

[DM Garynx]

Chiming in to clarify:
Warlock Pacts - No soul required, just song.

You are free to RP more if you like. I've seen some fantastic stories build from the "more," and would love to see more that are thoughtful, engaging, and add to the world's depth. If this thread spawned a variety of RP angles to take the warlock class, it would be a grand success.

[The Rambling Midget]

Funny thing. Vanya Dae'ia didn't trade her soul for her Warlock powers, but in the end, she sacrificed her soul to get back what she had originally traded for them. Proof that there are far worse things than losing your soul.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Perhaps an intangible follow-up, but what does a "bard's song" entail? Voice, creativity, something else? Although Arelith articulates bard song as voice and music, it can encompass a lot more - dance, oratory, poetry, instrumentation?

Does a bard's song represent something more philosophical to a person?

[The Rambling Midget]

It's supposed to be blending magic with music, but I prefer to RP it as words of inspiration, or some other form of performance which inspires bravery and dedication in others. Seems goofy to have it rely on a skill, if it's magic.

Back in 2nd edition, a Bard had to spend three full uninterrupted rounds singing, talking, telling jokes, or whatever, not just before combat started, but before everyone was even ready to go. We're talking about a rapt audience. The effect was said to alter the mood of the listeners, so it wasn't really providing magical buffs as much as it was bringing out the best in them and lifting their spirits. It's like a USO show. Could be anything from a line of ladies in short shorts doing the can-can to Patton Oswalt talking about Kentucky Friend Chicken. Whatever it takes to remind the listeners that they're alive, they're people, and they have something worthwhile to live for.

[Morderon]

Lets get the mechanical part of the way:

A bard, which was selected because it's stats best matched the warlock class, loses bard song and lore when taking the path because the class the path is based upon does not have it.

I doubt a DM will smite the warlock if it is good at public speaking, playing an instrument, or an excellent singer. Provided such doesn't give mechanical benefit; and there's still yet exceptions to that.

Now if the player wants to base what the character lost, and how much they lost, upon the bard song that's completely up to them. It could be ones voice, ones tongue, ones hand so they cannot play their favored instrument; the holophoner, creativeity. Maybe they cannot think straight at all. Perhaps their memory is now terrible. Maybe even lack of passion, or more general feeling.

[The Rambling Midget]

I doubt a DM will smite the warlock if it is good at public speaking, playing an instrument, or an excellent singer. Provided such doesn't give mechanical benefit; and there's still yet exceptions to that.

Totes.

My Warlock was a singer, a dancer, and a public orator.

[CragOneEye]

It's supposed to be blending magic with music, but I prefer to RP it as words of inspiration, or some other form of performance which inspires bravery and dedication in others. Seems goofy to have it rely on a skill, if it's magic.

Back in 2nd edition, a Bard had to spend three full uninterrupted rounds singing, talking, telling jokes, or whatever, not just before combat started, but before everyone was even ready to go. We're talking about a rapt audience. The effect was said to alter the mood of the listeners, so it wasn't really providing magical buffs as much as it was bringing out the best in them and lifting their spirits. It's like a USO show. Could be anything from a line of ladies in short shorts doing the can-can to Patton Oswalt talking about Kentucky Friend Chicken. Whatever it takes to remind the listeners that they're alive, they're people, and they have something worthwhile to live for.

That is exactly how Caster the Clown operates, him acting as a clown IS his performance even if it's seems to be apparent insanity.