"Lowly"

[Borgian Oligarchy]

Editor's Note:

By that I mean that I literally work and have worked editing college textbooks, physicians manuals, and sometimes the occasional novel.

There is a vast difference between what is publicly acceptable and what is correct. Public postings and rp do not have any editors to tell you you're wrong, so you will see people improperly using words regularly with no one policing them. If aren't publishing, and you simply do not care, continue your improper usage.

If you do care about correct grammar, and you are worried about making sure your usage would pass an editor's scrutiny, then CatEyes is correct.

I wasn't going to post, but there are people misinforming others that it is correct to use words like "irregardless" just because you feel like it, and that somehow the English language, which is indeed a very fluid and continuously changing entity, is going to forgive you because of its plasticity.

The standard for spelling and word usage is currently set by Oxford (and the New York Times oddly enough). If, as an editor, there's something I don't know, those are the two sources I've been taught to turn to. Oxford adds new words and definitions on a regular basis, so what is incorrect today may indeed be correct tomorrow. Keep checking back with it.

When it changes, you can post here and I'll concede your point, but for now, it isn't an "anything goes" scenario when it comes to proper spelling and usage. If you are a famous author, perhaps a word you make up or incorrectly use will one day become a real word or a new definition. Then you can tell all your friends on NWN and we'll all be envious of you - at least I will.

Cheers!

The poster formerly known as Rasputin's Beard

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Don't use *whispers lowly* - wtf does that even mean. Regardless of the "three definitions", it is not clear and precise language. The best writers are the least ambiguous. I don't know what you mean when you say *whispers lowly*

*speaks in a low whisper* is what makes sense.

And don't use irregardless. You sound like a tool. And it's Arctic (with a capital A). Canadians know.

[The Rambling Midget]

I will whisper lowly in the artic whenever I want, irregardless of what you say, ya stupid jamoke.

(Just pretend that was the voice of an Italian mobster.)

[Black Wendigo]

What's worse than people not using correct English is people being rules Nazis about it. You know very well what people mean when they use whispers lowly for low whispers. Really now. There is a reason why flammable is on oxygen and other such tanks instead of the right word. Inflammable is irregular and people get fooled by the im- part. Same with irregardless. People don't realize it's regardless or why it is so.

I might also point out that if you are quoting a char's dialogue and saying its incorrect usage, well it might just be deliberate.

So how about cutting people some slack and politely, privately correcting them if one feels that one must do so? You may discover reasons for the incorrect usage you were not aware of.

[Lorkas]

You know the drill: press B to cancel.

[Rystefn]

I wasn't going to post, but there are people misinforming others that it is correct to use words like "irregardless" just because you feel like it, and that somehow the English language, which is indeed a very fluid and continuously changing entity, is going to forgive you because of its plasticity.

The standard for spelling and word usage is currently set by Oxford (and the New York Times oddly enough). If, as an editor, there's something I don't know, those are the two sources I've been taught to turn to. Oxford adds new words and definitions on a regular basis, so what is incorrect today may indeed be correct tomorrow. Keep checking back with it.

OED lists irregardless, and it's been in use for over 200 years. It's a word.

[Yma23]

As an art form and the primary medium of a roleplaying community, language is always worth talking about. Really, people can use whatever they like as adverbs. But if anyone emerges from this conversation with more thought put into what they write into their emotes (such as whether they really need all those adverbs at all!), then I'll score that as a victory.

Habits, trends, and conventions are the enemy. "Hums lowly" is lazy writing.

I actually almost entirely agree here, and it's very important to keep in mind the rules of grammer/spelling to aid people in communication. I'm entirely in favour of your post as a gentle 'Hay. Um. This could lead to misunderstanding'

But at the end of the day - this is not a published, edited and official document. It's a roleplaying game. Sure, spelling and grammar are important. Sure, we should think about them, and encourage people to use them properly, to make sure that they communicate their meanings better. But at the same time, it is hardly the be all and end all. It's a far more informal style of writing and, whilst I'm all for a gentle nudge in the right direction, it's imporant too we don't rant or belittle people who, as second language speakers, young people, and/or dissabled people and thus push them away. Especially when, for them, phrases like 'lowly' may not be 'lazy writing' they may honestly think it is a correct usage of the word.

I've always thought of spelling/grammer like the suit and tie of arelith.

Lets' say there's an interview to a job in... computer programming. Two people attend. One is a -fantastic- programmer, but he's dressed up in stained jeans, ratty shirt, is unshaven. The other is a fairly skilled programmer, but nothing like as good as the first. However he comes in with a sharp suit and tie, neatly attired.

Who do you think will get the job? Especialy if it's just a quick interview?

That said, though the latter guy makes a better impression, the forumer may be better at the job.

So what I'm trying to say is it's good to put some effort and thought into your writing when you can. Because it gives a good impression and helps your roleplay out in various ways, including making your emotes more imagintive. It will attract more people to you.

But I also want that Arelith is not a novel, it's a on-the-spot written ongoing roleplay game, and putting everyone to the same standards, and judging them purely by their spelling and grammar is also unfair. Indeed I would wager that a fair amount of the player base is either young/none english speakers/dissabled (In my case severe dylexia.) Whilst I certainly do adore a well written character, I've also found wonderful fun in those whos spelling and grammer were far from perfect.

Also - and shoot me if you think I'm being unfair here - I'd rather roleplay with someone who's stuff came quick, easy and basicaly comprehendable, than someone I had to wait ten minutes between emotes because they were checking up the -exact- grammatical correctness of the use of the semi colon.

I'm entirely in favour of people putting some effort into their writing. I think a gentle nudge in that direction is a great idea. Writing -is- important, and good writing should be encouraged. So long as it doesnt' become eleetist.

(Side note) Ok so - I'm not entirely sure about this - but arnt British and American grammatical rules slightly different anyway? I know our spelling is in many places. How do you balence between that?

(Side Note Two) Interestingly, and this was just at a first look, 'Irreguardless' is not in the Chambers English Dictrionary... Not sure what to take from that. But... something.

[Razmo_de]

[...]If you do care about correct grammar, and you are worried about making sure your usage would pass an editor's scrutiny, then CatEyes is correct. [...]

There is no adverb for 'low' in English? You know. There totally should be. Because thats stupid. Well, guess all languages have their odd rules.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

'Low' itself is an adverb as is 'lowly'

[Cuchilla]

Thanks for the English lesson

For us non-native, it's very helpful.

I declare myself guilty! I think I used the word lowly a couple of times. Will not happen again!

[Razmo_de]

'Low' itself is an adverb as is 'lowly'

So its *hums low* instead of *hums lowly*?

[Rattus_norvegicus99]

We grammar Naziz have a hard time on a multi-generational and multi-national server ... why just the vast differences between American and British English is enough to send us Nazis into a tizzy, but I do applaud your attempt to explain.

Forgive me, I am a bigot because my spelling is atrocious!

[Anime Sword Fighter]

This is how it is to me (Irregardless of what Oxford might declare):
Low-ly is the base adverb form of the word 'Low' that has apparently either not been used or has dropped out. It is the same construction from an adjective to an adverb as one would make 'Bad' into 'Badly'. The connotation of 'Low' here is "to be smaller in comparison."

Lowly is an adjective with the connotation "Low in political status." It is ALSO the adverb form of that same meaning, since apparently "Lowlily" has dropped out of usage.

If "Low" and "Lowly" are two independent adjectives, then
adjective = adverb
Low = Lowly
Lowly = Lowlily

Now, to the rules being argued for by yellowcateyes, I think this is how it became:
But since "Lowly" as an adverb form of "Low" is the same as the adjective "Lowly", then:
adjective = adverb
Low = Low
Lowly = Lowlily/Lowly

That doesn't make it necessarily WRONG to use 'lowly' in place of 'low,' it will just make those that adhere to the rules put forth by an institution that has apparently been declared the ruler of the language many people use happy.

However, it will make it wrong if 'lowly' is used to modify a noun rather than a verb.

[IndifferentPerson]

this whole thread in a gif

[yellowcateyes]

This is how it is to me (Irregardless of what Oxford might declare):
Low-ly is the base adverb form of the word 'Low' that has apparently either not been used or has dropped out. It is the same construction from an adjective to an adverb as one would make 'Bad' into 'Badly'. The connotation of 'Low' here is "to be smaller in comparison."

Lowly is an adjective with the connotation "Low in political status." It is ALSO the adverb form of that same meaning, since apparently "Lowlily" has dropped out of usage.

Isn't this a self-serving construct of the 'history' of the word lowly, which presupposes your preferred definition as the original and more common use, rather than the word-in-adverb-form having always have had the same meaning as its adjective?

After all, you'll find "lowly speaking" and "spake in a lowly manner" as far back as the homilies of St. John, but you won't find "hums lowly" much anywhere outside of Arelithian roleplay.

That doesn't make it necessarily WRONG to use 'lowly' in place of 'low,' it will just make those that adhere to the rules put forth by an institution that has apparently been declared the ruler of the language many people use happy.

Cultural institutions exist not only for tradition, but also for utility. It has been very useful for the community of authors and published writers to be subject to a single editorial tradition.

But I also want that Arelith is not a novel, it's a on-the-spot written ongoing roleplay game, and putting everyone to the same standards, and judging them purely by their spelling and grammar is also unfair. Indeed I would wager that a fair amount of the player base is either young/none english speakers/dissabled (In my case severe dylexia.) Whilst I certainly do adore a well written character, I've also found wonderful fun in those whos spelling and grammer were far from perfect.

Yes, this community is not wholly comprised of professional authors. This makes it useful to have occasional discussions such as these in order to shine light onto common writing pitfalls, so people will be more self-aware in what they type.

Also - and shoot me if you think I'm being unfair here - I'd rather roleplay with someone who's stuff came quick, easy and basicaly comprehendable, than someone I had to wait ten minutes between emotes because they were checking up the -exact- grammatical correctness of the use of the semi colon.

False dichotomies are easy to defend. I have actually had the opposite experience; careless writing often leads to run-on sentences, lots of ellipses, and unnecessary paragraphs when a simple, crafted sentence would have sufficed. Sharpening one's skill at writing improves one's speed at both craft and comprehension.

People who are good at writing are fast with their wits at both emote-writing and speed of responses. People who are still finding their RP legs, whether it is their character concept or figuring out their writing style, tend to take a little longer.

This is partly why your example of a well-dressed programmer versus a shoddily-dressed programmer is flawed. Programming is language. Someone who's bad at the rules of their language, and who uses ambiguous, uncommented code, tends to be a bad programmer. The craft of communication is more than just what you wear. It is the essence of what you are, as an RPer.

This is why I think it's better if people stop to think about what they're typing, rather than repeating a commonly-used e-mote just because they see a lot of other roleplayers using it.

Let's go to the original problem for an example.

A character *hums lowly.* What does that mean? Evidently, according to server pop culture, this questionable phrase refers to 'humming at a low volume.'

But why is your character humming at low volume? Perhaps their throat is injured, or perhaps they are unwell. Instead, perhaps your character should hum a brittle sound, followed by a cough. Perhaps their hum should be hard to hear, and rough like cheap papyrus.

Or perhaps your character hums in a low volume because they are shy, or very private about the tune they enjoy. (It is a private melody, known only to them and their mother!) They hum beautifully, but in tentative notes that end as soon as someone notices or comments.

Much of this can be conveyed as swiftly and more colorfully than the well-known (and ambiguous) stock phrase. By re-examining a common (and, in any case, linguistically questionable) e-mote, you can sharpen how you convey your character. And you can do so without leaning so heavily on a generic, ambiguous phrase that is common only because roleplayers tend to copy each other's emotes. (It's true!)

[Yma23]

You bring up some very good points. I suppose all I can say is merely a small word that - whilst I am utterly in favour (and indeed have started threads myself!) wherein we encouage folks to write better, it's a good idea to be leery that we are not telling people that they are 'doin' it wrong.'

[Seven Sons of Sin]

sidenote: if you use "irregardless" in any sort of university scholarship, you'll get slammed so hard.

Furthermore, yellowcateyes' discussion was my reasoning behind "The Literature of Roleplay" in General Reference. I think it's irrefutable that people who have the highest RPRs, also, typically, have the best mastery of the English language (this is not always the case!). And by "mastery" I do not mean knowing all the rules, or all the vocabulary, but who can convey meaning in the least ambiguous, confusing or redundant way possible.

I'm of the firm belief that awesome writing goes hand-in-hand with awesome roleplay. I don't think that's an outlandish idea - when you think back on people who've always impressed you, to me, it's people who write dialogue and emotes in a way I've absolutely never thought of before.

[IndifferentPerson]

sidenote: if you use "irregardless" in any sort of university scholarship, you'll get slammed so hard.

Furthermore, yellowcateyes' discussion was my reasoning behind "The Literature of Roleplay" in General Reference. I think it's irrefutable that people who have the highest RPRs, also, typically, have the best mastery of the English language (this is not always the case!). And by "mastery" I do not mean knowing all the rules, or all the vocabulary, but who can convey meaning in the least ambiguous, confusing or redundant way possible.

I'm of the firm belief that awesome writing goes hand-in-hand with awesome roleplay. I don't think that's an outlandish idea - when you think back on people who've always impressed you, to me, it's people who write dialogue and emotes in a way I've absolutely never thought of before.

That is all very true, many of the great roleplayers have very good writing and can give mental images to those around him/her in detailed, easy to picture emotes.

[Jack Oat]

Alright, I'll say it. This is getting dumb. Don't like the way others type, or have issues with their grammar? Tough luck, buttercup. As with most every other part of this community and criticisms against the playerbase, this passive aggressive bit is likely going to do little aside from cause more OOC tension which, as 4/8/15/16/23/42 chan has shown, is at a rather high amount already.

Moreover, I'm not even sure why this was posted in the Q&A section. This isn't a question, and it isn't the answer to someone else's ACTUAL posted question. It's an observation and correction better suited for either the Slanty Shanty board, (previously mentioned numbers) chan, or if you plan on hosting a Grammar 101 course over the forums to correct the deep intricacies of everyone's grammatical flaws, the General References & Information board.

[IndifferentPerson]

Alright, I'll say it. This is getting dumb. Don't like the way others type, or have issues with their grammar? Tough luck, buttercup. As with most every other part of this community and criticisms against the playerbase, this passive aggressive bit is likely going to do little aside from cause more OOC tension which, as 4/8/15/16/23/42 chan has shown, is at a rather high amount already.

Moreover, I'm not even sure why this was posted in the Q&A section. This isn't a question, and it isn't the answer to someone else's ACTUAL posted question. It's an observation and correction better suited for either the Slanty Shanty board, (previously mentioned numbers) chan, or if you plan on hosting a Grammar 101 course over the forums to correct the deep intricacies of everyone's grammatical flaws, the General References & Information board.

Even if her tone is hardly the most respectful, her point of trying to inform people of correct grammar is still a valid one, I think if anyone feels attacked by this, they have their priorities set wrong.

[yellowcateyes]

Alright, I'll say it. This is getting dumb. Don't like the way others type, or have issues with their grammar? Tough luck, buttercup. As with most every other part of this community and criticisms against the playerbase, this passive aggressive bit is likely going to do little aside from cause more OOC tension which, as 4/8/15/16/23/42 chan has shown, is at a rather high amount already.

What's a 4/8/15/16/23/42 chan? Does a critique of a bad emote trend constitute an implied criticism of the playerbase? If so, why do you feel that way?

Is there any particular self-image or attitude you are projecting by the phrase 'tough luck, buttercup?' (I mean, I feel a little wierd just typing that out.)

Lastly, are you certain you are using the phrase "passive-aggressive" correctly? Can you define passive-aggressive behavior and how it applies to either the OP or the discussion so far?

[CragOneEye]

If we're going to through history into the mix of the English language here's some fun facts:

English is a bastardization of what it was originally, more so than any other language on the planet. Further more it was originally a Germanic language, that was heavily influenced by the Romans. Thus much of the words for English literature has evolved, so has its grammar.

You need not go far to see my proof of this, original writings of Beowulf, then Shakespears' play writes, then Homer's Oddyssey, Asimov's invention of the word robotics and robot.

In short English in reality (as much as I hate to admit it) is the language of the "common" people. And as such it will continue to evolve, what is "proper" English is decided by the Academia, and not even it fully agrees as you have American English Academia and then British English Academia.

Perfect examples are word choices such as "colour" and "color" or the letter "zee" and "zed".

I am not saying this is an excuse for bad grammar, but I do feel people need to lighten up a little as this is a role play server, and not all of us are as grammar "smarts" as you are cateyes.

I personally have a learning disability that makes it very hard for me to be excellent with English, however if we get on topic of mathematics or visual arts then I tend to excel at that.

And so not all of us are physically capable of "proper" English that was decided by the Academia, and some of us use English as a second or third language. Which is also something else to keep in mind. Especially when we're all here to have fun.

[IndifferentPerson]

She's not being a tight pants, idk why everyone is so triggered.

*adjusts his white knight helmet*

[Yma23]

English is a bastardization of what it was originally, more so than any other language on the planet. Further more it was originally a Germanic language, that was heavily influenced by the Romans. Thus much of the words for English literature has evolved, so has its grammar.

Can't... hold... back...

*Bounds in happy explanatory mode*

So yeah, british english as we know it now is more or less derived the germanic languages. And this indeed does show a lot in our grammar, which is always one of the slowest components in a langauge to change. Then the romans came, and brought with them Latin! Latin became the langauge of learning, and so there were huge shifts in the tongue due to that.
A while later, 1066 happened, and we got a visit from those loverly people - the Normans. With the invasion and occupation by them, our langauge observed it's third main component - French. French more to the point mostly became the language of nobility (which is why french wording tends to be associated with class and style, and why we 'eat' different words to what the animal is. For example - we do not eat 'cow' we eat 'beef'). Pronounciation was also effected, and some small aspects of grammer too (though not that much.)
Latin kept it's foothold as the langauge of learning, however. And tihs creates a sort of three tierd system in some english words. Take 'Kingly' (old english) Regal (latin) Royal (French) each with their own sublte connotations and meanings. If one wants to sound 'common' and perhaps friendly, one uses the former. More educated? Regal. And more posh? Royal. This goes thogh for a lot of differently derived words.
*deeep breath*
And of course, back in these days - the idea of a 'correct' grammar and spelling, whilst not unknown, was nothing like we have. Words changed entirely, and changed sounds, an dchanged spellings from county to county. It was only with the development of the Printing press that spelling and grammer had to be properly regulated.
Then the British Empire happend, and English got yet more words absorbed and pillaged from other nations! America became a 'thing' and made up its' own words, terms, and also kept some of ours. (Did you know, for example, that 'cookie' is actually a more 'british' word than american? Cookie is dereived from german, 'Biscuit' (which is what britains refer to most 'cookies' as) is a french word. And there are more examples too, but I cant' recall them)
Nowadays with the invention of the internet, mass communication and the 'global village' we're seeing even more words shift, change, and develop. Whilst at the same time, the fact that much of the internet communication is written, means that a requirement for reasonable standards of writing is perhaps greater than ever. A strange dichotamy.

And that's all folks!

[Anime Sword Fighter]

She's not being a tight pants, idk why everyone is so triggered

The thread's basis is 'ur doin it wrong'.