Epic Sacrifice

[CptJonas]

Ah, see, except we don't know what percentage value those items are worth - or if the "maximum item value cap" at 50k GP is before the percentage is calculated, or after. The "probably 1/3 or 1/2" on the wiki is an arbitrary number pulled out of the aether and never actually verified by anyone with eyes on the code. It could be that items only count for 10% of their value, so your Sword of Moderate Asskicking which is worth 170k GP actually only contributes 17k towards your necessary 1 million - or that your Sword of Infinite Buttstomping which is worth 2,000,000 GP is also only worth 10% of its value, which is then further truncated to 50k total.

We have no way of knowing ANY of this. That's people's point.

You asume...in those years and years...with so many contributors who joined and leaved.....noone of them have friends on the server...and non of them ever told them specific numbers etc about reward roll...and you dont belive old saying...Three people can keep secret only if two of them are dead.... I belive those specific numbers are not secret for many people for long, long time....

[CptJonas]

Maybe it's just me, but I've yet to get a character to epic levels without coming to love the character and getting attached, making it harder for me to roll her.

Not only that, I've only ever gotten 2 characters that high in my +10 years here.

Well, you're not trying to game the system either. If the purpose of making a character was to get to level 26 ASAP you'd have different priorities on what you'd spend your time on.

Honestly I feel there should be a "time played" portion on the Epic Sacrifice roll by tracking total ticks. Rolling a character that has 2000 hours played should be a much bigger sacrifice than rolling a character that rushed to 26 in 50 hours.

No matter how i see it, it's probably impossible to hit level 26 in 50hours.
I supposed even 200hours is a problem unless you're a literal robot...

Ehmm...whats curent record? like under 30 hours to 30 level?
But to say a true...on road to 26...it would probably take you 100 hours +- withow writs...with them...its probably 2 weeks of login on for 1h to do 3 writs per day....(20h then or so..)....and week or so of grindig like 4 hours per day (around 40 hours)...so....You can comfortably do it in month of play....or 60-70 hours...... Or you can burn out yourself (and steal some gold from writs what you will not complete) and do it hard way...grind like 4 hours even after writs....If you do it....you can have your 26 in less then 2 weeks....Or you can be madman or try to do record and do even more insane stuff (all is about class and build.....totem druid with -elc is favorite one for it)

[the grim yeeter]

I was thinking. If it's really important that items are not grandfathered and muled, shouldn't this system work in the complete opposite way it is working now? As in, make inventory value count for 100%, and cap gold at about 50k?

[NauVaseline]

I'd vehemently hate that

[the grim yeeter]

Could you give a more useful response than just those four words? Perhaps add an explanation? Provide reasons why?

[Skibbles]

I *think* value is automatically calculated on items. For example (and I'm not logged in but you can probably find something in your inventory or in a chest somewhere real quick) a lot of items/armors/weapons that you wouldn't be able to flip to a new character for 500 gold are estimated at 100k or even more by whatever system does that kind of thing.

I'd guess that wielding/wearing a bunch of trash while handing off your 5%s would still be the goto for most characters at the moment they roll.

I'd guess if that was the case, then, the team would need to come up with a custom list of what has what value in order to get the desired result - something that may be more trouble than its worth.

I couldn't say that was Nau's point however.

Some people might like leaving mementos behind, albeit powerful ones to the spirit of the suggestion, before disappearing forever.

[the grim yeeter]

I *think* value is automatically calculated on items. For example (and I'm not logged in but you can probably find something in your inventory or in a chest somewhere real quick) a lot of items/armors/weapons that you wouldn't be able to flip to a new character for 500 gold are estimated at 100k or even more by whatever system does that kind of thing.

I'd guess that wielding/wearing a bunch of trash while handing off your 5%s would still be the goto for most characters at the moment they roll.

This is a good point. You would think, indeed, that it requires item values to be changed. Something I figure is probably too tedious, or has too much of an effect on how easily enchanted these items are (as the % chance of success on enchanting is directly related to item value).

However, if the only thing we do is to remove the current maximum item gold worth cap of 50k such that there is no cap at all, but keep that 1/3 or 1/2 (whatever it is) percent value (and it could simply be lowered to 1/5 or even 1/10 if we think it's currently too much), then this issue is solved without having to change individual item values. And then, as I proposed in my previous post, add a cap to the amount of flat gold taken into account in terms of roll percentage increase.

The benefit of this would be three-fold:
- it would encourage people to roll with their gear (instead of passing it over to other players, often done in an OOC manner), reducing grandfathering and muling.
- it would discourage people from grinding that 1 million (which, undeniably, kills roleplay) before rolling.
- it would discourage people from taking a large amount of gold from their faction bank account and using it as roll money.

Some people might like leaving mementos behind, albeit powerful ones to the spirit of the suggestion, before disappearing forever.

If they're mementos with little mechanical value, then there's no harm in these items being passed on anyway. But that's the thing: powerful (and rare) items shouldn't be passed on endlessly. In fact, I believe it is generally agreed upon that this should be prevented as much as possible. Like Xerah said just last Sunday (viewtopic.php?f=37&t=30773&p=243657&hil ... er#p243662):

[NauVaseline]

Could you give a more useful response than just those four words? Perhaps add an explanation? Provide reasons why?

Because it's far easier to calculate that 10% in gold than it would be to calculate item costs and play inventory management before an epic sacrifice and my casual Snuggybear is getting sick of constant BETA META changes and convenience-nukes

sick. sick sick sick sick

Further, I disagree with the assertion of GranDFaTHerIng BaD, and just because Xerah says something, does not mean it's 'generally agreed upon'. It's okay that uniquely strong (or broken and barely functional) items/classes/gift-characters exist. It adds flavor. Not everything needs to be balanced like it's Starcraft 2 or a MOBA.

[the grim yeeter]

Because it's far easier to calculate that 10% in gold than it would be to calculate item costs and play inventory management before an epic sacrifice and my casual Snuggybear is getting sick of constant BETA META changes and convenience-nukes

sick. sick sick sick sick

Hold on, there. You might want to calm down some. I totally get where this emotion is coming from, don't get me wrong (I recently let myself go in another post, as well). But let's try to stay calm for the sake of constructive discussion.

Calculating inventory value really wouldn't take that much time. Definitely no more time than grinding 1 million gold (or one-hundred thousand, for that matter) would. I'm sure you understand that.

[...] and just because Xerah says something, does not mean it's 'generally agreed upon'.

Haha, no. Definitely not. Tell me about it.

But I never said that, either. I just quoted him because he said it recently and he is one of the numerous people with this opinion (also, note the word "Like" instead of a word such as "Because", in my previous post). And I think Xerah and these people are right, to a substantial extent. I don't think it's "the absolute worst thing that can happen", but it is most definitely not good for server health and balance. See below.

It's okay that uniquely strong (or broken and barely functional) items/classes/gift-characters exist.

No. It is unfair. Changes to balance are made with a reason: to balance; to breed and maintain impartiality. If those changes are necessary in certain items, then that logically means that the previous versions of those items should no longer exist. It is not that complex of a deduction, really.

Not everything needs to be balanced like it's Starcraft 2 or a MOBA.

Yeah, it actually does. What many people seem to forget is that the huge surge and high pace of updates recently has to do with the very lack of balance. A lot of the recent changes have been made to make up for poor implementations that took place prior.

The dexterity/monk item nerf happened because they were causing lack of balance.
The rogue nade nerf happened because they were causing imbalance.
The qstaff nerf happened because it was too strong (ignoring the unnecessary collateral damage on other double-sided weapons for a moment here)
The blinding speed nerf happened because dexdiv builds were too strong (and still are, btw).
I could go on for a while.

In other words: if we had maintained balance adequately, fewer drastic changes would have been needed, and less disappointment would've been created.

So yes, mechanical server balance is extremely important so as to prevent disappointment in players as much as possible..

[NauVaseline]

Calculating inventory value really wouldn't take that much time. Definitely no more time than grinding 1 million gold (or one-hundred thousand, for that matter) would. I'm sure you understand that.

1) Grinding is entertaining
2) Withdrawing 1mil from the bank is significantly faster and more convenient than going through my inventory, item by item, recording their value, then adding it all up at the end hoping for 1 mil. I personally do not like accounting, there's no dopamine there for me.
3) I'd wager if someone didn't find grinding entertaining, they'd find the accounting they'd have to do before an epic roll even less so.

No. It is unfair.

What's unfair is having my build ransacked every other month when the meta changes.
What's unfair is having a script dig into my inventory to remove an item I worked hard to obtain because the dev who put it in didn't do their balancing due-diligence in the first place, or a dev later on down the road introduced something that inadvertently made the item a problem.
What's unfair is having a script pilfer items from me in the name of 'balance', 'balance' which will change next month anyway, and is often replaced by a system that is 'just as broken' and sometimes moreso. The only difference I can detect between Artefacts and Runecrafting is that I can plan with certainty around Runecrafting and can for certain max out my uni saves and ability scores.

Disclaimer: This shade is directed 100% at the idea of Removing Grandfathering and not the Dev's.

Yeah, it actually does.

No, it doesn't. This is not an e-sport, and the ruthless pursuit of balance ends up trampling on what makes the server feel lived in and gives it history. Yea, legacy greensteel popping up once a year in a merchant stall is part of that lived in history and not a problem. Attrition claims these kinds of items over time as it is. Eventually, all of those arrows from the recently nerfed (removed?) template will be all gone. Let people keep their relics. They are actual artifacts.


-------------

Hold on, there. You might want to calm down some. I totally get where this emotion is coming from, don't get me wrong (I recently let myself go in another post, as well). But let's try to stay calm for the sake of constructive discussion.

I find this 'call for civility' comical cause certainly you can see the irony in telling someone to calm down while also using loaded language to subtly dismiss their opinions?

I'm sure you understand that.

Implies that disagreeing with your assertion means I do not understand the subject material

It is not that complex of a deduction, really.

See above

Could you give a more useful response than just those four words?

snarky+dismissive. My four word response was perfectly valid. You only need 'I dont like this' to convey the fact that you don't like something.

[the grim yeeter]

Uh oh. Well. Certainly not going to continue this discussion, that's for sure. Carry on.

[Miaou]

This thread is a bit of a gravedig and not at all on topic for the original question at all. As well, a general reminder to be nice to your fellow players. Discussions are fine, arguments and dismissive comments trying to force your views on others isn't. We're all different people and like different things.