Dragons

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Richørd
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Dragons

Post by Richørd » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:38 pm

So ... what is the exact reason for them getting removed?

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The Rambling Midget
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Re: Dragons

Post by The Rambling Midget » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:38 pm

Rotation and balance. Special races get steadily phased out and replaced to provide new opportunities and avoid stagnation. Dragons are also mechanically overpowered.
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Nitro
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Re: Dragons

Post by Nitro » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:41 pm

If I were to hazard a guess:
1: They were getting too common
2: Dragons are absurdly powerful compared to other 5% alternatives (Both mechanically and lorewise)
3: Dragons weren't properly portrayed by dragon players
3.5: Dragons behaving like humans was really harmful to the server atmosphere and setting

I for one am glad to see them gone. I never met a dragon PC that felt like an actual dragon and not a meme.

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Re: Dragons

Post by the grim yeeter » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:46 pm

I have literally never seen one roleplayed properly. Besides, they are meant to be very rare; Arelith already has too many NPC dragons as is. Let's not pollute the server with poorly played ones. It was a good decision to have them removed.
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Cortex
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Re: Dragons

Post by Cortex » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:56 pm

Dragons should never have been added to begin with, the fact they were brought back a second time is mind boggling.
:)

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MalKalz
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Re: Dragons

Post by MalKalz » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:11 pm

Just to give a bit of information on this:

Current Dragon Count: 4 Active Dragons
Total Dragon Count: 30*

Stats:

Abilities:

+2 Str
+2 Con
+2 Cha
Spell resistance: 11+Level (Capped at 32)
20/- cold resistance
True Seeing (in Dragon Form only)
Dragon Skin PrC feat
+4 ECL

Number of applications in the last month: 5

There were five applications this month that sought to play a dragon PC. However, these were not honoured as the race was in a retirement phase. I came to announce it so that people did not waste their time applying for it, when it was not going to be granted. They were great concepts; however, there are some major balancing issues when this race was first released.

The earliest iterations of Dragons were unbalanced on the above stats. There were some adjustments; however, not enough to warrant enabling them again. However, what is being done is a rotation of races and enabling more options for players to pick from at the 5% reward level. These new races will go through proper balancing with the appropriate team.

Note:

* 30 is representing the total database entries, without accounting for removal of deleted and duplicate characters and non-migrated characters. Some players remade with the same name and have two entries. However, four have only been played in the last 4 months.

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Richørd
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Re: Dragons

Post by Richørd » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:42 pm

Spyre wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:11 pm
...
I will repeat a few things that I already said in a Discord discussion about this and add other points :

The data you posted clearly shows that there are not "too many dragons". That point is clearly being disproven by only 4 different dragon PCs just coming online within the last 4 months.

About "I met a dragon PC and it didn't feel properly RPd" :
A dragon toon being missinterpreted by it's own player and behaving more like a cutesy "oh look what I can do :3 OwO" type of character rather than a creature of high intellect, might and fiercely bred royalty that purely moves around lesser beings for it's own reasons and agenda? That should be report worthy. Simple and easy.

I think it is a shame that a unique reward, one that was so hard to achieve and so well guarded behind applications, is now being removed entirely. Instead the population should've just been kept low, as it already was, and often checked on by DMs.
Yes, we are going back into the old topic of "But DMs already have enough to do", sure. But especially recently, since DMs adapted a harsher and more instantaneous way of giving out punishments and deciding on problemcases and situations there should be more time than ever to check in on active and online dragon PCs from time to time to see if they are abusing their dragon form mechanically or falsely RPing themselves.

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Re: Dragons

Post by MalKalz » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:47 pm

Richørd wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:42 pm
Spyre wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:11 pm
...
I will repeat a few things that I already said in a Discord discussion about this and add other points :

The data you posted clearly shows that there are not "too many dragons". That point is clearly being disproven by only 4 different dragon PCs just coming online within the last 4 months.

About "I met a dragon PC and it didn't feel properly RPd" :
A dragon toon being missinterpreted by it's own player and behaving more like a cutesy "oh look what I can do :3 OwO" type of character rather than a creature of high intellect, might and fiercely bred royalty that purely moves around lesser beings for it's own reasons and agenda? That should be report worthy. Simple and easy.

I think it is a shame that a unique reward, one that was so hard to achieve and so well guarded behind applications, is now being removed entirely. Instead the population should've just been kept low, as it already was, and often checked on by DMs.
Yes, we are going back into the old topic of "But DMs already have enough to do", sure. But especially recently, since DMs adapted a harsher and more instantaneous way of giving out punishments and deciding on problemcases and situations there should be more time than ever to check in on active and online dragon PCs from time to time to see if they are abusing their dragon form mechanically or falsely RPing themselves.
Hi Richørd,

At no point did I say there was too many. They are not being phased out because of numbers. They are being phased out due to balance issues, and race rotation. Dragons may one day return with a new stats; however, they are not currently in the rotation as we have plans to introduce a few more races in its place that are unique as well.

Please do not take this list:
Nitro wrote:If I were to hazard a guess:
1: They were getting too common
2: Dragons are absurdly powerful compared to other 5% alternatives (Both mechanically and lorewise)
3: Dragons weren't properly portrayed by dragon players
3.5: Dragons behaving like humans was really harmful to the server atmosphere and setting
As the reason for why they were removed. Because that is not the case. There have been some excellently played dragons, and there are still excellently played dragons. But, there is a point where things get retired from active rotation and new things are introduced.

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Richørd
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Re: Dragons

Post by Richørd » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:07 pm

Spyre wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:47 pm
...
Sorry, small missunderstanding.
You indeed never said that there were too many dragons. That's just a talking point I picked up from people who were in favor of / neutral about the removal of dragons as a 5% reward.


Quote : "They are being phased out due to balance issues, and race rotation. "
It surprises me that balance issues are being seen as a factor for this removal. I expected this to be a non-issue for races and classes that are gated behind 5% rewards (let's say you achieve a million coins of networth on your character? That's still on average 10 toons you have to sacrifice for this) and an application process that is never guaranteed to get you what you want.

I distinctively remember that one patch in which PaleMasters recieved massive buffs. The one that came before the class got unlocked and no longer required an application process and RPR to take levels in. I do not recall people being outraged over PMs being mechanically super-strong because they were so exclusive. It basically guaranteed that you would never encounter a PM player that just played the class for mechanical advantages. They were properly RPd and a menace, as they should be. Of course there might have been a few cases where abusers slipped through the cracks. But I prefered the situation back then over what we have these days.

Race rotation is a thing that always makes me wonder : Why is availability of content to players being limited to what the team deems to be "worthy being left in the game for now"?

the grim yeeter
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Re: Dragons

Post by the grim yeeter » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:05 pm

The data you posted clearly shows that there are not "too many dragons". That point is clearly being disproven by only 4 different dragon PCs just coming online within the last 4 months.
Four true dragons roaming an island group the size of Arelith and its surrounding small islands, in addition to the already existing NPC (most of them ancient) dragons (the Aurilite one, two on RDI, Darnoth, Orias, not counting the ones that are on other planes) is, in fact, a ridiculously high amount in terms of density.
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Richørd
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Re: Dragons

Post by Richørd » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:20 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:05 pm
The data you posted clearly shows that there are not "too many dragons". That point is clearly being disproven by only 4 different dragon PCs just coming online within the last 4 months.
Four true dragons roaming an island group the size of Arelith and it surrounding small islands, in addition to the already existing NPC (most of them ancient) dragons (the Aurilite one, two on RDI, Darnoth, Orias, not counting the ones that are on other planes) is, in fact, a ridiculously high amount in terms of density.
There is an area in the NWN:EE base campaign where you can fight three different dragons with just a few loading screens of distance inbetween.

Further Arelith is set in the year of 1372. Only a year before this :
(quoted from the forgottenrealms fandom wiki)
"Draconic rule came to an end when the elves created the Dracorage mythal, a powerful magical effect that incited all dragons across Faerûn to madness and mindless destruction, turning against each other and even against their offspring. This event became known as the Rage of Dragons. Dragons were unable to take control of Faerûn again, their collective power waxing and waning over the millennia. Although exceptions were recorded throughout history, the majority of Faerûn's dragons came to occupy the niche of top predator, not ruler.

After the last Rage of Dragons, in 1373 DR, the dragon population of Faerûn was greatly reduced in number. That realization sparked the need of dragons to look for the help of their gods, marking the prophesied "turning of the Great Cycle", an ancient myth that foretold the return of draconic religious fervor. The dragon gods who survived the long years without worshipers received a great influx of power from their new draconic followers. In 1374 DR, a new Tearfall caused several new dragon eggs to fall from the sky."

(end of quote)

Therefore we can assume that at this point in time the overall population of dragons has reached a new high. One big enough to warrant another use of the Dracorage mythal.

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Zavandar
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Re: Dragons

Post by Zavandar » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:26 pm

i think the question's been answered at this point

"They are being phased out due to balance issues, and race rotation."

which i think is healthy, because there are busted builds w/ them
Intelligence is too important

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Re: Dragons

Post by Ork » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:05 pm

Richørd wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:07 pm
Race rotation is a thing that always makes me wonder : Why is availability of content to players being limited to what the team deems to be "worthy being left in the game for now"?
You know this is kind of their prerogative & sole responsibility. This is their sandbox and we play in it.

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Re: Dragons

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:56 pm

Is no one going to mention vampires? Alright well I can't say I'm complaining, haha.

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Re: Dragons

Post by RedGiant » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:10 pm

Take the long-term view on this. Race rotation and the fact that the staff continually bakes up new stuff for us to try is a good thing. Here we should probably just say, "thank you."

Given their stated aim, there is nothing stopping you from sitting on a reward till a later date. I'm sitting on a greater right now because the current line-up is either to close to things I'm playing already or it just doesn't interest me. That's the great part of the system...it will change!
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The Rambling Midget
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Re: Dragons

Post by The Rambling Midget » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:43 pm

Richørd wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:07 pm
Race rotation is a thing that always makes me wonder : Why is availability of content to players being limited to what the team deems to be "worthy being left in the game for now"?
Because it's their job to make those decisions?

What?
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Jagel
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Re: Dragons

Post by Jagel » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:03 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:10 pm
Take the long-term view on this. Race rotation and the fact that the staff continually bakes up new stuff for us to try is a good thing. Here we should probably just say, "thank you."

Given their stated aim, there is nothing stopping you from sitting on a reward till a later date. I'm sitting on a greater right now because the current line-up is either to close to things I'm playing already or it just doesn't interest me. That's the great part of the system...it will change!
Good point, dood

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Re: Dragons

Post by JubJub » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:53 pm

Cortex wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:56 pm
Dragons should never have been added to begin with, the fact they were brought back a second time is mind boggling.
I am with you on this. So to see them come back was rather shocking, I figured it would be a small window to be one.

One of the issues with the reward system is people sit on so many rewards that as soon as something like a dragon comes up there is a sudden rush so suddenly there are a lot of dragons and then slows down.

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Jagel
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Re: Dragons

Post by Jagel » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:10 am

People sit on major rewards? O.o

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Re: Dragons

Post by Felgrand » Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:06 am

As a new player dragon is something I’ve desperately playing and rping sorta as using Druid and Wizard spell shape change. I wasn’t even aware the race existed and I’m honestly a bit sad to hear that it was something to of miss out on. I hope it’s better worked to make the dms happy with balance and fun for any who rp with it.

Slavery? Never heard of her.


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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Dragons

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:39 am

I'm afraid there are no plans to bring Dragons back. I won't say 'never ever ever ever.' But it's a very unlikely scenario in which we'd allow them again.

This too shall pass.

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