monk/werewolf aligment

[Dalenger]

- People who build to become werewolves. A Monk/Blackguard would be a particularly effective combo

But by declaring that as the intended build for deliberate werewolves, you are saying you also expect for werewolves to be lawful aligned. Neither natural werewolves, nor the Malarites that oft seek to become lycans, are commonly (or at all) lawfully aligned.

Are you then saying this is a free pass for said characters not to play the character sheet for their alignment? If not, perhaps a different mechanic needs to be added into the mix.

Merely reposting an unanswered question posed by KregorRanger to which I'd also like to know the answer.
I was bouncing around the idea of a monk/werewolf who's RP would not be lawfully aligned. Will a DM whack me for it, or is being a werewolf a special circumstance?

[Mithreas]

If you're playing a Lawful character, play them Lawfully.

There are plenty of other viable werewolf builds; blackguard is probably the most important component for the save bonus. A cleric/blackguard or bard/blackguard would also be really strong (buff then shift); bard/blackguard + a splash of ranger, barbarian or fighter would have all the usual strengths of bard/BG builds with a built-in howl (indeed, if it becomes popular, I may well change bardsong to do a proper howl if used by a werewolf).

[Tomato Sword]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'll ask here because I think it's related.

What about Selunite monks? The Sun Soul didn't all worship Amauntor and plenty of LN and LG monks of Selune existed. Would this be a problem if they wanted to cross-class as Paladin or Champion of Torm?

[Mithreas]

Paladins can't get lycanthropy (though they can take paladin levels after being infected).

A Lawful Good-aligned werewolf-by-choice seems like a long stretch RP wise, though. CG, sure thing, I can see that.

[KregorRanger]

Paladin would be moot right out anyhow from a canonical standpoint, as Selune does not sponsor any Paladin orders.

[Tomato Sword]

Well, my intention really wasn't to ask about paladins anyway... So I guess I'll be more straight forward.

I'm talking about lawfully aligned, both LG and LN Selunites. It's within cannon and Arelith wiki for those of Sun Soul order. Can monks then be Champions? It would seem reasonable for those afflicted with lycanthropy but don't want to give into its evil pull to turn to Selune.

[KregorRanger]

Her Divine Champions would have to fit Selune's clerical alignments. LN or LG are not among them.

Most of Selune's lycans by choice, or natural lycans, are also other breeds of lycan besides werewolf (werecat, werebear, wereraven) that are not of a natural CE tendency. As Mith said, if you're LG, you'd be fighting against both alignment axes of the lycan blood within you. It's not something you can just bat a non-5% eye at, IMO.

[Mithreas]

It would seem reasonable for those afflicted with lycanthropy but don't want to give into its evil pull to turn to Selune.

It would, if it wasn't quite straightforward to cure it. That's the big question you'd need to address for a character like this - why live with the curse rather than quest to cure it?

[The Man of the Moon]

... (indeed, if it becomes popular, I may well change bardsong to do a proper howl if used by a werewolf).

Wow!... errr... howlll!

This may be quite awesome for the werewolevs lovers!

[The Rambling Midget]

indeed, if it becomes popular, I may well change bardsong to do a proper howl if used by a werewolf

Bard Song loses a large part of its utility at later levels because the temporary AC from polymorphing already fills the cap. The Will bonus is handy for making control saves, but Curse Song ends up being a lot more useful, because it gives an effective +2AC/+5AB by dropping an opponent's stats, thus circumventing the caps.

Would make sense as a scary roar.

[Scurvy Cur]

I'd be a little leery myself about a lawful character willingly employing a strategy that essentially runs the risk of them rampaging and killing all their allies every time they go for it, just on principle.

I can see a lot of decent builds that eschew monk completely, though, including something barb/BG/Rogueish. Rage should synergize nicely with polymorph bonuses, divine might should fix most of the lack of damage pretty handily, dark blessing covers saves, and then rogue allows for extra heavy damage on KD'd/T-raged enemies. Plus it feels thematically very coherent.

I see a lot of opportunity here for a lot of the moral quandaries that Mith is hinting at here, both in contracting/keeping lycanthropy, and in associating with willing lycanthropes, as in essence, every career werewolf is harboring a readily-curable disease that makes him or her stronger, but runs an ever present risk of turning them into an uncontrolled furry murdermachine, which really ought to worry his or her neighbors, friends, and associates.

[CragOneEye]

I wish monks that had immune to disease were also immune to lycanthropy alas they are not -_-

[The Man of the Moon]

I wish monks that had immune to disease were also immune to lycanthropy alas they are not -_-

On the PnP sessions I played in my old AD&D RPG Club (2nd Edition adapted by our own conventions), certain races as elves couldn't become werebeings nor undead... Some things were sacred (as by influence of Tolkien legacy I think, as also we created our own RPG world, mostly based on Faerûn Lore, but with some enhancements coming from our long years of playing in our RPG Club)...

Then monks couldn't neither done their special resilience and spiritual higher dimension...

PD. Paladins were also immune! Protected by their respective deities as they are their sacred champions (and immune to diseases and poisons too)...

But Arelith is ravenous !

Also... if just common disease immunity had to avoid to become cursed as lycanthropy, then those boots giving +1 CHR and disease immunity should protect too against the werewolves bite...

As here is a mystical curse rather than a simple disease, this is probably why not.

[Urch]

Barbarian rage + terrifying rage on a werewolf would be interesting.

[The Man of the Moon]

Barbarian rage + terrifying rage on a werewolf would be interesting.

Dunno yet if Barbarian is or not the best mechanical class to fit as werewolf, but certainly in RP meanings, is the best one in my thoughs...

And the rage totally matches... Not to mention terrifying rage is awesome aweeeesooomeee against those not just immune.

[Lorkas]

Terrifying rage is particularly devastating against those who are immune to fear, unless Arelith fixed that. There's a bug that causes anyone who is immune to fear to automatically be feared rather than automatically not being feared (auto-fail instead of auto-succeed).

[msterswrdsmn]

Question: Can monks even become werewolves after a certain point? They eventually get immunity to disease, just like paladins do.

[Scurvy Cur]

Monk disease immunity doesn't protect against lycanthropy, but paladin immunity does. I suspect this has something to do with the PnP description of the monk immunity only conferring protection against mundane (and not supernatural) diseases, despite NWN not seeming to differentiate the two. Paladin immunity covers both, and I'm pretty sure that lycanthropy has been flagged to work on monks and not paladins for this reason.

[The Rambling Midget]

(Tangent) What about Boots of the West? They give Immunity: Disease, but it's not specific as to what kinds of disease.

[Mithreas]

Monk disease immunity doesn't protect against lycanthropy, but paladin immunity does. I suspect this has something to do with the PnP description of the monk immunity only conferring protection against mundane (and not supernatural) diseases, despite NWN not seeming to differentiate the two. Paladin immunity covers both, and I'm pretty sure that lycanthropy has been flagged to work on monks and not paladins for this reason.

Yup.

Only the paladin Divine Health (or whatever it's called) feat protects you.

[JediMindTrix]

Paladin would be moot right out anyhow from a canonical standpoint, as Selune does not sponsor any Paladin orders.

To my knowledge, Paladin's do not necessarily have to be part of a sponsored order to be a paladin. Not sure about the rules, here, however.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

I had a 17+ monk levels character at one point who contracted lycanthropy and would not turn. She would tick off the confused status effect for roughly 3 seconds and then revert to normal. That is the only reason I knew she had it (besides her wrestling greater lycanthropes and some player lycans beforehand). I put it down to monks after a certain amount of levels became immune to the effects of lycanthropy due to their high end control by Arelith mechanics. I guess maybe she was just bugged instead! She cured it regardless.

Given Selune coming up and a lot of RP I see that concerns Selune, I would like to drop this tidbit into this thread. Werewolves, the only kind of lycanthrope people on Arelith can turn into, are always CE. An afflicted lycanthrope (Pretty much everyone but 5%ers) assume that alignment as long as they are in that form. By the 3.5 edition monster manual rules, anyone who Knows of their condition and takes control of it permanently assumes the alignment of their disease.

This isn't something I see a lot of good aligned or neutral aligned people doing. 'Yes, I will harbor this disease though it actively warps my personality and soul, because it's pretty baller.'

And a tidbit further on this, Selunites actively work to Murder evil lycanthropes, aka werewolves. They see them cured or killed before they can spread the disease further or kill people, as per 3.5 Faiths and Pantheons entry. So I also do not see any Selunites harboring lycanthropy, especially when there is an active useful cure on board.

Now, I am not posting these tidbits in a 'You must conform!' fashion. Rather, I find a lot of people aren't aware of canonical rules or fluff concerning things and this might be a good thing to put here for people to know. Special snowflakes do keep coming up on the forums, and while I believe RP should be allowed some flexible room, I also do not believe it should constantly spiral away from setting facts which should serve as guidelines. Information on this sort of thing is pertinent for those that can't find it due to most wiki sites being all about the 4th edition stuff.

As another note: Because of the way divine classes work on Arelith and in fact in canon for the most part, Selune cannot have paladins because she is firmly chaotic as a god. The Sun Soul order does exist and has a segment for Selune within it, and as much as I would love to say that COT should allow for Selune on monks? It actually doesn't have any real backing to it as you cannot be a lawful cleric of Selune. If you want to play a sun soul monk of Selune, you are better off going monk/fighter/rogue and following her as then you have no divine classes stipulating your deity has to match your alignment and no classes that RP divine connection to a deity that is opposite of you on the scale.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The issue with adhering to PnP rules, is that no where does it give any reasonable and satisfactory answer as to why werewolves must be CE, and werebears must be NG.

If you can't explain "why" to me, I just ignore it. Not all of DnD is reasonable let alone logical.

[Urch]

^what Seven Sons of Sin said.

Keep in mind Dinosaur Space Program, Arelith isn't strictly 3.5ed. Arelith is Arelith. What might be canon and rule in 3.5 might not necessarily be such in Arelith.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

If you must have most of the Forgotten Realms and D&D explained to you as to 'why' it is that way, then maybe you are in the wrong campaign setting. A lot of it was slap dashed together from mythology, blatant cultural rip offs and ideas from a predominantly Caucasian writing cast. The Forgotten Realms especially is the product of a lot of stereotyping and ideas of how a magical world should work from that same writing cast and the biases and issues show predominantly for that reason.

The fact remains though that werebears were added in After lycanthropes made their entrance into the scene and someone thought it was a cool idea to have good aligned lycanthropes instead of only evil or neutral. And a lot of lore is balanced around such things as 'Chromatic dragons are always evil' and 'Fiends are evil' and 'These lycanthropes are always evil'. Does this disallow metallic dragons, celestials, and good aligned lycanthropes? No. If you want good aligned lycanthropes in Arelith, perhaps you should ask for them to be put in. Now I will say there are Exceptions, there are always exceptions. And I expect exceptions in the RP we will be seeing. But I think guidelines for people walking into this is not amiss either.

I only bring up 3.5 entries as well so people know I am not pulling this information out of my backside. It actually exists and you can find it in those books. If you wish to know more, you can look it up accordingly.